THOTH

I think she is refering to the new stone work versus the original (or existing). Seems as though one always sees this in restorations. I have been to a number of Myan sites where the new stone work is clearly distinct from the original. Sometimes this is done on purpose to distinguish new from old. I would prefer that it be done to look as close to the originalas possible - in all ways. I would love to see some of the Myan tem[ples rebuilt and actually (at least in part) repainted in all their former glory - so that we really could see what they looked like (of course this would also involve rebuiilding substansial segments that were originally made from wood or thatch etc - and did not at all survive. Also some guess work involved I imagine...still... quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: They are from different sides of the building - the first is from the side facing the valley (facing west) the other is from the south facade. But the colour difference might just be due to the light.

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: There is not a single building in Turkey - Turkish or Armenian - that I know of that has been improved by a "restoration". I can't agree with this statement (as a universal statement). I know that I am no expert, but I have been to the theater at Aspendos between Side and Antalya (it is simply wonderful) - as well as to other Greek structures in Turkey that have been restored and I think that the restored buildings serve a great purpose - more so - to the common folk - then just a pile of old stones and such. That being the case I cry with you regarding the poor quality of the work and the destructivenss as witnessed by the (so-called) resorations as can be seen on your web page and that you allude to here. Obviously the restorations should be done right. Your points regarding the motivations for the restorers is also well taken. Just the same - I would love to see an Ani (or parts of it at least) resotred properly - not by these hacks. It is certainly criminal what they are doing and how they are going about it. Thanks so much for documenting such and bringing it to our attention.

quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose: Winston, is a/b racist/generalizing, too? Yes of course - very much so! And to some degree it lies at the root of where he is often wrong (IMO). Just the same he is presenting his observations of behaviors that (at the very least) have some kernal of truth. And while so does Steve (I can believe him concerning the Kurds for instance - ad even to some degree Armenians - but he takles it further [generalizing] then i ever would) - and perhaps we should take note (of the validity of some of these observations) as well - however, in each case when it becomes personal, the comments start to say more about the originator then those being commented on...(IMO) - for both of them...

quote:Originally posted by khodja: Thoth, The political dimensions of the Armenian community are not clear-cut. In America, affiliation with a certain Armenian faction does not necessarily correspond with affiliation with one of the American poltical parties. Understood - though I know that the ANC and AGBU etc have certain specific political ties etc (I don't remember who is with who etc - quote:Originally posted by khodja: In any case my concern and focus is not on Armenian politics but American politics. I grew up hearing from the circle I grew up with about how bad the Dasknaks were, especially the assassination of Archbishop Tourian in 1933. When I became an adult, I attended a variety of Armenian functions. One of my cousins, realizing this stated to me "What the hell you doing at a function at the Dashnak church?" I ignored him. When my mother became ill in her later years it was not her ADL friends who were the kindest to her but a Dashnak couple. I have reletives and aquaintences active in the Armenian Church and in Armenian-American politics and I hear this kind of thing - this church is with this party etc etc - I think this is so very sad and unfortunate. How could it get this way? What can Armenians be thinking. I also hear about all the politicing and showmanship gowing on etc and am very glad to not be involved. quote:Originally posted by khodja: To understand the divisions, I suggest that you read about the formation of the Armenian parties and how they play into the history of the Armenians since the late 19th century. Again I know some of this history - but not the dettails as to how it transfered into the religious sphere etc. I know about the Dashnak influence here in the States (and members of my family were once very involved in this group) and the Ramgavars etc - but again haven't really paid attention to who is with who these days. Do you have any recommended reading to enlighten me (not sure if I will bother though...to some degree i think I understand enough...to be disgusted with it) quote:Originally posted by khodja: As for the American political scene it is critical to understand that the Republican party od today is not what it was approximately 20 years ago. It has been usurped by a gang of Christian zealots who twist the words of Jesus for their own political ends. They are hell-bent on infiltrating every aspect of American life. They want to so-called Christianize America in their image and disenfranchize everyone who does not agree with them. The American nation was not founded upon these principles, but upon one of religious freedom. I agree completely with your last point. However I think the Republican party (20th Century) has always had these elements. And don't forget McCarthy was a Republican...I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat BTW. I ussually vote the lesser of two evils in elections (or third party candidate - no matter who it is - I have never voted for a major party candidate in a Presidential election BTW). Ussually I see the lesser of the evils as the Democrat (but only because we are such a wealthy nation and can afford to be wasteful - IMO)..the reasons you give (religeous right & social naziism), and environmental concerns ussually drive my vote... quote:Originally posted by khodja: My instincts tell me that MJ's Republican bent is more in line with this type of thinking than fidscal matters. I don't see it..(at all) quote:Originally posted by khodja: Armenains were massacred in Turkey for geo-politcal reasons, but there was a clear religious dsicrimination element to the mentality of the executioners. Yes of course - very different though (IMO) - and only a tool/excuse - not the underlying rational. CUP used the religion - they were not believers - not at all... quote:Originally posted by khodja: When see Armenian embracing similar mentalities, I can not sit idly by and say nothing. Waht set me off with MJ was his adultation of rousas John Rushdooney. I don't know this Rushdooney - nor do I understand your issue with MJ in this regard. And even if MJ is a fan of this guy - so what? Isn't it what MJ states himself and does what we should judge him on. Sure he is harsh - and has been to you - but it seems to me that you two probably agree on a lot more then you disagree on - and I think that you have miscaracterized him - really. Its funny (in a tragic sense) how you both seem to be pinnig the same sort of negative conotations onto ewach other (it seems to me) - when in fact I doubt that either warrents them...

Thorny, While I agree with you that Steve/BTC is not in the same category as those also mentioned - I must add that he has sometimes shown that he is very quick to flame away - and has - IMO - shown a racist (generalizing) attatude towards Armenians (and other Anatolians...Kurds come to mind) on occasion. I'm not sayig he has done anything to warrent banning or such - or even comparsion with the more lunkhead elements - in fact he is a great asset and contributor - but he is certainly no saint either. MJ is just taking another little dig - he really can't help himself (it seems)...I say we forgive him on this (and these) minor slights...

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Pew... And I though you where the God of Knowledge, or at least a God of Knowledge... Well perhaps I know a bit more then I let on sometimes... "Information is not knowledge Knowledge is not wisdom, (Wisdom is the domain of the Wiz)* Wisdom is not music Music is the best" Frank Zappa * and he's dead (Frank too unfortunatly) [ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Hi Kazza, Yes this was basically my point. I am ignorant of many of the specifics of these divisions (and how some of them play out in these forums among Armenians). This is one reason I am often hesitant to jump into Armenian forums (my ignorance of the internal politics etc)...and feel more at home in forums frequented by Turks and mixed audience - where I feel I can bring better perspective in the Turk - Armenian issues without getting caught up in the quagmire of Armenian politics. I'm sure that there are many Armenians much more aware of these issues (among Armenians) then I. I'm not sure I even want to know more really. Will my knowing more conceerning the specific disputes among Armenians lead to my being able to contribute any better (where it matters)? I don't really think so - so to some degree I have remained ignorant (and non-aligned) purposfly. I do see enough from Armenians - both here on the forums and within my own (Armenian) friends and family to disturb me quite enough (regarding the [reractionary and exclusivistic] tendencies among our people). It is such a shame to see - as we are at the same time a wonderful people. I fully understand MJ's frustrations (though sometimes I think they are misplaced..though admitadly i don't understand all of the nuances...). I also think that Ara Balozian is right on the mark in many cases - sure in a generalized way that may not be applicable in all cases (or even in the specific cases that he refers to) - but in general his observations should be taken to heart by all Armenians - the very least to warn us and remind us where not to let our tendencies hold sway...

MJ/Khodja - I must admit that I do not fully follow all of your differences (though do understand some certainly) and I am ignorant of many of the specifics of divisions (political & geographic) among Armenians (other than knowing that they do exist - not always why or what for in particular)...however - from both your responses to my tidbit about some of my best friends being Republican it is clear to me that you each miss (some of my) points as well. Could it be just my fault - me being too obtuse? Perhaps...BTW - the point you seem to miss is...humour...(no big deal? hm, is it?)

MJ - don't get me wrong - I think you are a valuable asset to this forum and in general and I appreciate all of youreffort here and insights. I just think that you do not suffer fools gladly and you seem to feel challenged by others and seem to feel a need to assert yourself and your views vis a vis theirs. Of course, to some degree, this is why folks participate in these sort of forums - to spout off their views and put down those of others - so perhaps i am just holding you to a higher standard becuase I think you warrent it...Your row with Khodja (particualrly the seeming personal aspect to it) just doesn't do you or the forum ay good - IMO. I'm sorry if it seems that I only post to criticise you - and no I don't blame you for the knucklhead posters or such - but I like to think that those who merit respect (such as yourself) can at the same time show both humilty and good judgement - particualry with someone such as Khodja - whom I see as a distinct asset to this forum (and his issues seem to me to be far more then personal. Even his personl issues have some particular interest to me...as it sounds as though his family and mine may have known each other...?). I would have given him as the example you ask for (who you attack just for opinions & thoughts) - though honestly I cannot be sure that I caught any posts that actually started this whole fight off. (and I'm not sure I fully understand all the philosphical diffferences the two of you even have...I mean some/many of my best friends are Republican...and we seem to get along...) No matter - I don't think that who initiated is the point (like with Kurds/PKK versus Turkish armed forces) - its who carries on the fight when the fighting shoud be long over that matters (again IMO)

MJ - While you may be correct (loudmouths being the cause of less active membership) - I think you should also consider that your own attitude has turned many off. Yes, most of those you chastise probably deserve it in some fashion - though I also see that you go after folks sometimes in a manner that is more harsh than deserved (IMO) - and this turns people off (not just those who you pick on). Sure there are plenty of numbskulls posting garbage that deserve to be thrashed - but there are plenty of others who might not have your mental capacity or who might just think differently then you do who you sometimes jump on. Khodja for instance. It is my opinion that he brings a great perspective (how is he any diferent or more offensive then Ara in your opinion?)and useful info. Sure you can disagree - and sure he has taken some digs at you - but don't you think this continued combating has gone on far too long? You both have plenty to offer the Armenian community - even if you fundementally disagree (politically)...your constant combat is turning folks off and doing the Armenian community a great diservice (IMO). Think about it. [ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Jug, Ali - It is my view that Communism is a religion - it seems to me to meet all criteria (with the divine being some sort of unreachable communist perfection - a communist heaven on earth - etc. Thorny's point is well taken (but I must amend it) - it is immaterial that these people CALLED THEMSELVES atheists...they in fact ere not - IMO. I don't see atheism and zealotry as being compatable. And Jug - I was always of the impression that most of the justification/ferver over the crusades was to retake the Holy land from the heathen Muslim infildels...are you implying it was mearly an economic land grab (and that religion was only used an an excuse to cover up the greed and corruption)? Same with the Spanish when the conquered all of those native American peoples and forced Christianity on them etc...I guess i will have to examine the motivations of anyone who claims to act in God's name much more closely from now on - much like friend Osmanly (Islam-only) - a Fundi-Muslim Turk - who claims there are very few "true" Muslims in the world (that all those who claim to be just don't live up to the very strict requirements - etc). Sometimes i think thus aabout Christians - very few who are truly Christian - and i don't buy that as long as you say you accept Christ into your heart - but keep acting like the same old ******* - that you are a Christian - somehow i think it takes a bit mopre then that. I don't think it is possible to be a Christian and drive a Mercedes for instance - but who am I to say - I just some whacked out Daoist - eh?

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Here is another alternative site with some information that may not be found on the pages of LA or NY Times or may not be allowed to broadcast on CNBC, CNN, BBC, MSNBC or ABC: http://www.heartland.org/studies/ieguide.htm#what I do hope to be able to address these issues (in some detail) with you at some point (though i can make no promisses). I think I have some counters. I need to read your references first (and find mine) and this takes some time (that I don't have enough of at the moment or for the forseeable future). I should tell you that though while I am not an expert per se in these issues I am not without some knowledge/experience/exposure. I once worked for a Congressional commitee specifically conducting oversite of the EPA (and the States) regarding (identification & enforcement of) some of thes issues - so I am not entirely unaware - particularly in regard to where we are falling short (administratively) - though I am perhaps a bit dated by a decade+ or so. (ie all of these claims of reduced emmisions/atmospheric levels - while [for the most part] true - don't mean we are in the clear [literally] yet - far from it [and don't forget the comming impact of developing nations...particualrly China]). I could also tell you about cheaters and how corporations circumvent the laws (though I don't think I can tell you these things [legal reasons]..you will just have too imagine...) What I can say - with certainty - is that if it weren't for environmental groups pressuring the Government and if it weren't for the (Federal) government making and enforcing environmental laws - most corporations would be doing little to nothing to clean themselves up - sad but true fact - confirmed by environmental representatives of these corporations themselves (to me). I know that this may not dirtectly address your point concerning the validity of the science and the impact on our economy etc - however it is all part of the puzzle. Sure environmental groups are like any special interest group - they go to the extreme for their particualr cause..however this is necessary - you ask for more then you ever excpect to get - just as the other sides fights tooth and nail to resist - even though they too know that such a position is wrong. As for the impacts of the effects of adopting laws enforcing strict emmision standards etc - these will actually benefit the econmy - IMO - I have seen it in other areas - it spurs technology and investment (to update technologies and methods - resulting in our industries being more competative) and creates a whole new industry (just ask Waste Management Incorporated or BFI etc) - and I argue - the US has a competative advantage with such industry/technology (as long as they keep on it and don't let it slip aaway to other nations - which is exactly what they are doing by not getting onto Kyoto (in some form)...IMO...and I still argue that the (very real & likely) potential harm to the earth far outweighs near term economic issues anyway...really now. I also think that it is important that we demand environmental standards for goods being imported into our country - another way to gain competative advantage (or at least not to lose market share due to more restrictive US laws) PS - and please don't forget to ask Dragon for his assessment regarding how relevant this topic is to Armenians...

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Exactly. According to the Christian doctrine, you receive the gift of Eternal Life not by righteousness but by the Grace of God. OK - correct - but this was not my point. I myself am not a beliver in existance of conciousness etc beyond the chemical processes of the body. Sure - i imagine the possibility of miraculous things - beyond the known limits of science (as such things we take for granted now would have been seen as such by the ancients..or in some cases not very long ago even)...however unless such a thing (eternal life without a physical body in some mythical plane - either heaven, hell, limbo or what have you) - just does not compute based or extrapolated from any knon science that i am aware of. My conclusion - to speculate 9or to count on/care about/value etc) such mythical places and possibilities is not rational and not worth much effort beyond interesting speculation - sort of like imagining what fruits aliens eat on their homeworlds or such...or what music they might listen too (fascinating stuff perhaps [depending on whether or not you follow Bill Clinton's lead and inhale...]) but of no practical use to me on a daily basis. quote:Originally posted by MJ: About Hindus… Would you consider being reincarnated as a dog or cobra as life for a former human? Well these creatures are alive - no? And who are we to speculate on the value and self-perception of such existance. Ignorance is bliss they say - perhaps there are pleasures and such (they phrase "a dogs life" alludes to...or the magnificance of the snake - its senses and capabilities etc...who is to know - perhaps its not so bad (if you beleive that sort of bunk*) *apologies to Vivian Stanshall (Sir Henry at Rowlinsons end)

Well it isn't a dilemma for the rational - IMO. As for your second point - would not a Hindu disagree with the notion about being dead longer then being alive? I know it is difficult for humans to accept that they are no more special then any other creatures except perhaps that they have been and are #1 in the intellect department by leaps & bounds - not a small achievement. How is it that we are blessed (or some might say cursed) so? Divine intervention of some sort? Perhaps. But if so I myself am much more inclined to accept the far more logical and complete Summarian accounts as to the origins of man (etc) then the old testement/Genesis version that was borrowed, homignized and deliberatly edited for propaganda purposes. Even if I did believe Genesis I would be highly inclined to accept the serpent as the true savior of man (thus I am Thoth) quote:Originally posted by MJ: Yes. There is a dilemma, here - do it on the Earth and go to Hell, or live your life on the Earth as in Hell, and go to Heaven. P.S. But you know what they say, right? "You are going to be dead for much longer than alive." [ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

MJ/Omar - a very good point...but why then will doing such get you sent to Hell...I am most confused....LOL quote:Originally posted by MJ: Omar Khaiyam has a quatrain, where he conveys approximately the following message: "They say we will have lot's of wine and women in Heaven, If that's what we go to Heaven for, why not to do the same on the Earth?" - My free and lousy translation.

Ali - Amazon carries a number of Cambell's books - Just do a search on "Joseph Cambell" Specifically (for this subject) I recommend "The masks of God: Occidental Mythologies" and "The Masks of God: Creative Mythologies" - though you will want to read the entire series (that includes Primative and Oriental". I also recommend his "Hero with a Thousand faces" book...and really nearly everything if you are interested in this sort of thing. He was truly an amzing and visionary man. I have yet to read all of his books - but I really feel that I must... Good luck and good reading! Winston [ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

Khodja - agreed (good points) Ali - LOL!

MJ - I to do not have time to review your material or respond just now. But i will try at some point. My point earlier (not stated well i guess) - is that the temperatures this last decade are the highest over the last 500 (or so?) years (don't remember exact span). I believe in the concept of evolution and in the generally accepted "facts" of it regarding humans and other creatures - even though specific evidence (the misnamed) missing link issue etc - is still mostly speculation based on accepted/observed phenomonon extrapolated and applied to us. I see the "evidence" regarding global warmiong as similar. (in each case there are holes in the data - but there is ample supporting evidence/observations for one to come to the "correct" conclusion - IMO)

Ali - Your Oct 17 post concerning the "Big 3" monotheistic religions was right on. Very well said! I concur 100%. Have you ever read any Joseph Cambell? He delves into the common myth threads of these (and nearly all other) religions on man. I suggest you check him out - you will not regret it if this subject is of interest to you - and you will have no doubt as to the truth in your own words as you have stated them here...LOL take care (brother unbeliever/skeptic) Winston

Ali - I agree with your first point 100% - and even when I stated that I did not think there was a uniform policy I undrstood that there was/is a positive aspect to this. I also think your characterization of the lack of coherent Turkish Government policy on foreign policy (and other issues) is also true. It makes me realize (at least) two things - 1) Ataturks don't come along every day - and Turkey was blessed in a way that few other nations ever will be - can they take advantage - or has his real legacy really been sqandered away? and 2) there is quite a bit to be said for government non-interference (or at least minimal interference) in the daily lives odf people - and even in dictating the environment and future for people. The US is a great example of this. Certainly our geographic, demographic and resouce situation has given us some tremendous advantages - but so has the fact that our government (overall power and capability to dictate without accountability) has been restricted in many ways and that this fact is ingrained and accepted by most Americans and even (perhaps grudgingly) by most public officials over here. As for your second point - I still disagree. I am entirely in favor of reconcilliation - and perhaps even commitees to facilitate this - however the TARC is not it - IMO. I see the Turkish members as largely hostile to Armenians with hidden and not so hidden anti-Armenian agendas - and I think the Armenian members might be just a little naive (even if their hearts are perhaps in the right place). I will suspend final judgement of course - but I am concerned/fear that what I think the Turkish (and pro-Turkish/pro-big oil interests) are in this will come to pass - that the Armenian Genocide concenrs will be considerded satisfied or such - when in fact they are only swept under the rug - that realpolitic and greed interests will prevail at the expense of our humanity (as ususal)... Winston

Well MJ - do you say the same concerning evolution? Evidence seems somewhat circumstansial don't you think? I certainly am more then a little concerned that the average world temperatures (and more specifically the upper ocean temperatures - our worlds heat sink) over the last decade or so have been at all time highs (for recent times) and can be shown to be rising...and why is that we may ask - I think the answer is obvious. Perhaps this is my belief - you may call it a religion - and that because of insufficient data collection periods to develop trends (do we really have a few thousand years?) we may be just in some natural cycle (even if so - it is certainly an issue with (potential) meaning for us all - and with the great potential for a real hell theat none/few of us will likely be able to escape. I suggest - if you have any sense or concern about the type of world you or your children and their children will live in - that you try to "see the light" on this one. being wrong has true and perhaps irreversable consequences...and even if the dire predeictions do not come to pass - what do we lose? A little more clean air, more trees (which are dying from excess nitrogen and acids from the air - this i have seen with my own eyes) etc...so step up to the druidic alter son and be saved.... quote:Originally posted by MJ: Alpha, I guess my statement was a little bit a broad one. Here is the politically and perhaps factually more accurate one: "The concept of Global Warming in its current shape/status belongs to the category of Religion." To go one step ahead and to provide satisfaction to your next potential request of giving explanation, I would say "because it is based on belief and not evidence or knowledge."

Thorny, Ali - I think that you are perhaps both correct. I do not have any special insight into the minds of the elites in Turkey - though somehow I think we would not find that they all think alike on this matter. Certainly we can all see signs of tremendous liberalization (to the point that Thorny is not even fearful to say the things she does on these sites [and I certainly would be if I were her]...however I am not certain that there is any real policy concerning opening up on the Armenian issue (beyond any general liberalization of media control). And Ali - what you have said concerning the concept of TARC is correct...however the participants (particualrly from the Turkish side) , the formative and deliberative process of this organization (somewhat murkey and excluding broad Armenian representation) and the stated and unstated goals (that seem to include inherent non-recognition/acknowledgement of the genocide) - all leave much to be desired and (rightly) leave Armenians very concerned that this current process is nothing more than an attempt to emasculate us and that it will do nothing to remove the barriers (regarding Genocide recognition) that exist on the Turkish side. Thus the potential result - perhaps some opening of trade and establishment of some official niceness in relations (good things in and of themselves true, but...) these will do nothing (directly/short term) to relieve the pain of Armenians who have sufffered (long enough)with this unrequited burden - nor will it likely result in the Turks actually reconizing past wrongs (and to begin healing/maturation themselves - that is sorely needed - IMO) (etc)...(this is just unacceptable to most Armenians - including myself) - and should be of concern to Turks "in the know" such as yourself... Anyway, thank you both for your courage, insights, and expressed thoughts - Turks such as yourselves matter more to us then any "so-called" (sorry, couldn't help myself there) reconcilliation commision... Winston

Funny, my religion proscribes that anyone who calls for someone to be put to death - shall be put to death! (Imagine what type of person could call for such - a true menace to society and good values...I can surely see why spome advocate tyhat this type be purged...) Luckily for you - I have a mind of my own - and compassion for others and don't believe I should be passing judgement on to others just because they are different from myself... And just what is the compelling rational to put someone to death because of love for or an act of love with another human being (even if perhaps we find such an act etc disagreeable?) I myself detest gum cheewing - it drives me up the wall - it disgusts me to no end - should I be advocating that gume chewers be killed (or at the very least have their jaws wired shut...just because it disagrees with my particualr morailty/orientation)? quote:Originally posted by Artur:??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Kazza i can't believe that you opened this kind of topic....... All gays should be put to death!!!!!! That's my thought and what my religion supports!!! And this organisation Of gays and lesbians... Pilafhead it is sad... i can't believe there aren't people who complain about it... Kazza, gays in Armenia are put to prison if police find them... and no lawayers are agreed to defend them... i support this... and i personally think that there should be punishment without any court... direct... Those gay armenians, about 99.9% of them live in the US... and for me they are not armenians... so we can not count them... All of them nomatter who they are where they are.... are shame of our nation... may God punish them all!!!!!!!!!!!!! In Azerbaijan they passed the law of rights given to gays... and now police cannot do much against them... It is just big shame, thats what it is... Shame Artur P.S. Leviticus 20:12-14: If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death(!!!!!); their blood will be on their own heads.

Ali - You may find it funny - but when I travelled for approx 3 weeks throughout Western Anatolia in 1992 not a single person picked me out for an Armenian (that I spoke with) - most thought me to be Turk(ish American). Of course i made it clear ip front that i was from the US. I was ussually asked (often after being offered some Raki - that I always accepted!) - why are you visiting Turkey. I would explain my interst in Archeology, etc etc - then discusss that my Granparents were from Turkey - and Grandmaother from Istanbul in specific...this always led to more chuminess and furthur rounds of Raki (my contribution was ussually some American marlboros - greatly appreciated). Of course I always went on to explain that in fact I was not a Turk - but an Armenian - nearly always to jaw drops...them many would softly say how sorry they were about what occured 9or such), others would say that I was a brother just the same (or such)...though a few would immediatly get defensive and begin accusations against Armenians (I never initiated any discussion of the Genocide)...I had to be physically seperated from one big (very drunk) Turk at one point as our discussion/debate had escalated quite a bit. For the most part I got a good response 9but always surprise...though I am only half Armenian and most folks say look more Greek). I had some interesting encounters with Kurds as well - who upon hearing (or overhearing) I was Armenian would quietly come up to me an begin explaining the Kurdish situation (that I was already quite well aware)...this happened on a few occasions (and certainly left an impression on me). Other Turks were often eager to show me places where Armenians had once lived and such (and of course I met and spoke with some Armenians - who were universily even more skittish then the Kurds (and far less trusting of me...) - saying something as well - IMO - and this also left an impresion)

Ali, khodja -some very excellent statements - good to see here. While I totally agree with the gist of what both of you are saying here - and appreciate the factual information (% of turks accepting the genocide & related factors etc) - and I understand the mixing of people/genetics due to assimilation - I also see (observable) differences between Turks and Armenians (in many specific cases and on average). These suggest that although there has been considrable mixing - there exist different percentages and that each group may have mixed with somewhat different populations (in addition to common and mutual). That being said - there certainly exists many visible similarities (and cultural - no question). There is also evidence in that all the ethnic groups from Anatolia (and including the Greeks) share certain genetic dispositions and mutations (are you familiar with Thalosemia (sp?) for instance?). I am an Anthropologist(by education) BTW - though my comments here are in no way scientific - only personal observation.