Turkey In The Eu?

[MosJan]

ONE IN THREE IRISH AGAINST TURKEY JOINING EU

 

About one-third of Irish people would oppose Turkish membership of the EU, a new opinion poll has found.

 

The poll on Irish attitudes to the EU also indicates that half the population is undecided about the proposed EU constitution.

 

The latest Eurobarometer poll, published yesterday by the EU Commission representation in Ireland, suggests that the overwhelming majority of people believe the country has benefited from EU membership.

 

The poll also reveals that just over half of Irish respondents are "for" developments towards political union. However, it suggests that there are significant reservations about future EU enlargement.

 

Just under 40 per cent of those surveyed support limiting enlargement to only some of the countries that wish to join the EU. Some 13 per cent of respondents believe no additional countries should be allowed into the EU.

 

A total of 29 per cent of respondents favour an enlargement of the EU to include all countries that wished to join.

 

When asked about specific countries seeking to join, 34 per cent said they would oppose the membership of Turkey. One-third said that they would support Turkey joining the EU, and 29 per cent had no opinion.

 

The poll found Irish people opposed to Turkish membership were likely to agree with the view that cultural differences were "too significant to allow for this accession".

 

Those in favour of Turkish membership were likely to agree with the view that it is part of Europe because of its geography (90 per cent); its history (80 per cent); that Turkey's membership would enhance understanding between European and Muslim values (81 per cent); and strengthen security and help rejuvenate an ageing European population (70 per cent).

 

The poll indicates that Irish people would favour the accession of countries such as Norway, Switzerland and Iceland. It found 50 per cent of respondents said that they did not have an opinion on the proposed EU constitution.

 

A total of 37 per cent were in favour of the constitution, while 13 per cent were against.

 

The poll also suggests that while most people had heard of the constitution, the majority is unaware of its provisions.

 

Some 15 per cent of respondents had heard of the constitution and knew of its contents, while 62 per cent had heard of it but knew little about what it contained.

 

The most common reason Irish people had for supporting the constitution (38 per cent) was that they saw it as essential for the smooth running of EU institutions.

 

Some 29 per cent supported the document because it strengthened the feeling of European identity.

 

The most common reason (41 per cent) people gave for opposing the constitution was that they associated it with a loss of national sovereignty. Almost the same percentage cited a lack of information as a reason for their opposition.

 

The poll of 1,006 people in Ireland was carried out by TNS MRBI last May and June, partly before the referendums in France and the Netherlands on the constitution.

 

By Martin Wall Irish Times; Sep 10, 2005

[Anonymouse]

The question of Turkey's admission into the EU is a central question, as Turkey is a nation that is held together by sand and fog, not exactly a 'stable' democracy.

 

The rejection of Turkey from the EU can perhaps lead to a crisis in Turkey, with the already fragile coalition between the religious nationalists and the moderate progressives who seek to slowly Westernize. That could damage the coalition in which case Turkey might then seek allies on the other side such as Russia as politics makes strange bedfellows.

[MosJan]

TURKEY HAS NOT CHANGED AND CANNOT ENTER EUROPEAN UNION

 

Participants of a Conference at the European Parliament Sept. 22 Conclude

 

The conference on the theme "December 2004 - October 2005; Has Turkey changed?" in the European Parliament in Brussels on September 21 organized by the European Armenian Federation For Justice and Democracy (EAFJ) and by the support of European Parliament vice-president Ingo Friedrich gave an unambiguous "no" to Turkey's EU accession bid saying that it not only has not changed a bit but also has no desire to change.

 

Hence, no accession talks should be started with this country. Almost none of the participants spoke in favor of Turkey's membership but Pierre Mirel who argued that the start of the negotiation does not mean that Turkey is ready to join the EU nor that it will join it.

 

Contrary to this opinion, deputies representing Cyprus, Juanis Kasoulidis and Kirakos Triantofilidis, pointed out that Turkey by no means can join EU unless it recognizes the Republic of Cyprus.

 

Italian deputy, Francesco Enrico Speroni, emphasized on his part that by not recognizing Cyprus Turkey, in fact, does not recognize part of the EU. "Turkey has first of all to liberate part of the EU only after that we may begin negotiating with it", Speroni said.

 

Founder of Info-Turk Fund, acclaimed publicist Dogan Ozgugen, spoke about human rights violation in Turkey underscoring that his country really has to change and live up to the principles of Copenhagen.

 

The participants did not sidestep the Armenian Genocide issue either. Chairman of European Hye Dat, Hilda Chobanian, and deputy chairman of Armenian Parliament, Vahan Hovhanissian, spoke more detailed on this issue.

 

Talking to media, Mrs. Chobanian said that they work now include the Armenian issue in the European Parliament's resolution on Turkey coming next week. Apparently, the resolution will be on launching accession talks with Turkey. Vice speaker of EU-Turkey delegation, deputy from Germany, Mrs. Renata Somer closed the conference with words: "Turkey has not changed in the period from December 2004 to October of the current year. There is no visible progress. The army is still a major factor in the country. No steps were taken towards recognition of the Armenian Genocide and the Republic of Cyprus. Therefore, Turkey cannot have a future without remembering and acknowledging its past".

 

By Hakob Asatrian in Brussels

[MosJan]

EU DEMANDS TURKEY OPEN ARMENIAN BORDER-GATE

 

The European Union demands that Turkey open its border with Armenia and improve the state of national minorities in the country, Trend agency quoted member of the Green Party of the European Parliament, Turkish-born Jem Ozdemir, as saying. Ozdemir stated that this issue will be discussed on September 28 and that the report includes an article which says "it is necessary that Ankara takes a decision of opening the Armenian border".

[MosJan]

EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT: ARMENIAN GENOCIDE RECOGNITION – “ESSENTIAL TERM” FOR TURKEY'S ACCESSION TO EU

 

28.09.2005 08:17

 

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Today the European Parliament ratified a resolution calling for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide by Ankara as an “essential term” for Turkey’s accession to the EU. The resolution gives ok to opening the negotiations on Turkey’s EU bid on October 3. The document was adopted with 356 votes “for”, 181 “against” and 125 abstentions. To note, earlier, in December 2004 the EuroParliament adopted an amendment to the resolution “On Turkey’s Progress for EU Membership” calling Turkey to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide.

 

<!> Reproduction in full or in part is prohibited without reference to "PanARMENIAN.Net"

[Nakharar]

European Parliament postpones Turkey customs vote

 

The European Parliament on Wednesday postponed a vote to ratify Turkey's extended customs union with the European Union (EU) after Ankara said its signing of the protocol does not mean any form of recognition of Cyprus.

 

Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) feared that the Turkish declaration would form part of the ratification process in the Turkish parliament and thus gain legal force.

 

Nevertheless, in a political resolution voted afterwards, the European Parliament approved the start of accession negotiations with Turkey on Oct. 3 as scheduled.

 

Olli Rehn, EU commissioner for enlargement, expressed regret over the decision of the European Parliament.

 

"Unfortunately today's decision does not strengthen our position in urging Turkey to stick to its commitment, that is, following the signature, to ratify and implement the Protocol without delay," Rehn said in a statement.

 

"However, this is a postponement, not a rejection," he said.

 

The European Parliament voted 311-285 with 63 abstentions to postpone the vote on the parliament's approval of the Protocol to the Ankara Agreement, which extends Turkey's customs union with the EU to all its new members, including Cyprus.

 

"The postponement has no impact on the start of the negotiations, since the only condition related to the protocol was its signature by Turkey, which has taken place," said Rehn.

 

Despite Ankara's signing of the protocol in July, it still bars Cyprus from using its ports and airports.

 

Turkey refuses to recognize the Greek-Cypriot government which represents Cyprus in the EU.

 

Cyprus has been divided into the Turkish-Cypriot north and the Greek-Cypriot south since 1974, when Turkish troops invaded north of the island after a failed Greek-Cypriot coup seeking union with Greece. The Turkish-Cypriot breakaway state in the north is recognized only by Ankara.

 

A majority of MEPs demanded guarantees from the Turkish authorities that the declaration was not going to be part of the ratification process in the Turkish parliament, fearing that it would then have legal implications.

 

Although the parliament voted to support the start of accession talks on Oct. 3, a date set by EU leaders in a December summit, it said the European Commission, EU's executive body, must assess if Turkey has fully implemented the protocol by the end of 2006. If not, this could lead to halting the accession negotiations.

 

The parliament also wanted each negotiation session at ministerial level to be preceded by an assessment of the fulfillment of the political criteria, both in theory and in practice, "thus exerting permanent pressure on the Turkish authorities to maintain the pace of the necessary reforms."

 

MEPs reiterated that the accession negotiations are an open- ended process and will not automatically lead to Turkey's EU membership.

 

EU governments are to work out a negotiating framework, which sets basic rules for the talks. Austria wants the negotiations to lead to an alternative to membership, such as a partnership.

 

Ankara on Wednesday threatened to shun away from negotiations if full membership is not the goal of the talks.

 

Source: Xinhua

[Nakharar]

ANALYSIS-EU dream has already turned sour for some Turks

 

29 Sep 2005 10:20:27 GMT

 

Source: Reuters

 

By Jon Hemming

 

ISTANBUL, Sept 29 (Reuters) - It may take 10 years before Turkey joins the European Union, but even at this nascent stage of negotiations EU demands have inflamed Turkish nationalism.

 

The constant stream of criticism from the European Union has revived memories of Western meddling in the 19th and early 20th centuries that put an end to Turkey's empire and, but for a nationalist uprising, would have dismembered Turkey itself.

 

"The whole issue of nationalism represents the most difficult and the deepest gap between Turkey and the EU," said one Turkey-based EU diplomat.

 

While the EU was formed to overcome the discredited nationalism that came close to destroying the continent in World War Two, Turkish identity was forged by Kemal Ataturk's 1920s nationalist struggle that fought off French, British and Greek invaders and suppressed Kurdish and Islamist threats.

 

Thus European calls for more rights for the Kurds, pressure over Cyprus and for Turkey to recognise the Armenian genocide 90 years ago, unite the far right, far left and many in the secular establishment against what they see as underhand EU plots.

 

"Turkey is experiencing the same betrayal by intellectuals that broke up the Ottoman Empire," said nationalist party leader Muhsin Yazicioglu this month.

 

LEFT AND RIGHT UNITE

 

While most Turks still favour joining the EU, support has fallen from 73 percent a year ago to 63 percent in a recent survey. However, as Turkey and the EU get down to the nitty-gritty of negotiations, support could fall even further, analysts say.

 

"There is only one fault line in Turkey and that is between those for and against the EU," said Istanbul University professor Mehmet Altan.

 

Meanwhile, opposition in Europe to Turkey's membership -- as high as 80 percent in Austria and 74 percent in Germany -- feeds the sense of suspicion and discrimination felt by many Turks.

 

This has made for some strange bedfellows.

 

Scruffy leftists with bushy Lenin beards found themselves rubbing shoulders with smart dark-suited right-wing nationalists last weekend at a demonstration against an Istanbul conference by liberal academics discussing claims of Armenian genocide.

 

"No EU, no USA, but a completely independent Turkey," the leftists chanted, pointing angrily at the EU flag flying above the exclusive private university hosting the conference.

 

"Turkey is Turkish and will stay Turkish," the rightists clamoured, in similar vein.

 

The EU closely watched the conference controversy.

 

"We see this is a question of whether the Turkish mentality can change and whether openness can prevail over those who prefer a nationalist view of their history," the diplomat said.

 

Both the right-wing Nationalist Action Party and the Turkish Communist Party are planning anti-EU protests on Oct. 2, the day before Brussels is due to start long and difficult talks that could lead to Turkey's eventual entry to the bloc.

 

However, more worrying for Turkey's EU supporters and Turkish liberals dreaming of shedding their oriental past is the depth of nationalism in the establishment and the army.

 

STATE CHALLENGED

 

For most Turks, Kemal Ataturk is still a hero who saved Turkey from foreign forces during and after World War One, restored national pride and turned the country towards Europe.

 

However for some, his state-centred, top-down legacy sits uneasily with the pluralist, democratic EU Turkey seeks to join.

 

"The way to democratise this country, to realise individual rights and freedoms, to transform a Kemalist state into a democratic state which values people is the EU," said Altan.

 

The so-called "deep state" and the powerful military are uneasy about surrendering any sovereignty to Brussels, he said.

 

Europe is "trying to change our national culture by imposing foreign values, fashion and languages that do not match Turkish customs and traditions", complained Turkish Chief of General Staff Hilmi Ozkok this year.

 

Increased Kurdish rebel attacks and a violent nationalist backlash have raised tension in Turkey ahead of Oct. 3 and undermined Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's government which has cast aside its Islamist roots to champion Turkey's EU cause.

 

However, many in Erdogan's own party, including ministers, come from a nationalist background. They, and many across the political spectrum, could baulk at too many concessions to EU demands on Cyprus, the Kurds and minority rights.

 

"When they get bored by this EU process and because they cannot offer any logical counter-argument, they'll get angry and work up nationalist reaction," Altan said. "It is a reaction by those fattened in the past and represents their helplessness."

[Arpa]

We just heard on NPR and BBC that Austria has kind of softened its stance on Turkey in the EU.

 

Here is a German folk song that goes back to the days when in 1529 the murderous hordes of Suleyman were ramming down the gates of Vienna;

 

“From Hungary he’s soon away

In Austria by break of day,

Bavaria is just at hand,

From there he’ll reach another land,

Soon to the Rhine perhaps he’ll come”.

 

If Austria relents and allows “suleyman” to knock at the gates of Vienna again then they will have no one to blame but themselves when Austria is renamed “austurkia” and Vienna becomes a “vilayet”.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4299626.stm

 



Austria repeats Turkey objections Austria has again urged the EU to offer Turkey an alternative to full membership of the bloc, days before talks on Turkey's accession bid.

Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel said he wanted the EU to acknowledge popular concerns over its expansion.

EU ministers will hold emergency talks on Sunday to try and resolve the deadlock over Turkey's membership bid.

Turkey says it must have the ultimate promise of full membership before it enters EU accession talks on Monday.

Chancellor Schuessel told Austrian television on Friday that he was not setting out "new conditions for Turkey".

But, he said, "it was necessary to understand people's concerns about the EU's ability to truly welcome" new member states.

HAVE YOUR SAY We need a bridge between east and west

Adam, Nottingham, UK

 

Austria's objections to offering Turkey full membership have forced the EU to hold Sunday's crisis talks, in the hope of agreeing a framework in time for the formal accession talks, scheduled for Monday.

Turkey is due to enter the talks in Luxembourg on Monday, provided it accepts the framework for talks agreed beforehand by EU ministers.

"No-one expects us to go to Luxembourg before seeing the negotiation framework document," Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said, adding there was a possibility that negotiations would not start.

'Partnership - not membership'

According to opinion polls, not one EU country has a majority of people in favour of Turkey's attempts to enter the bloc.

Mr Schuessel denied his tough stance towards Turkey was an attempt to improve his party's standing in elections in Styria province, due to be held on Sunday.

He said the EU must take into account popular anxiety over its expansion.

Voters in France and the Netherlands rejected the EU constitution in referendums earlier this year, months after the bloc expanded to include several new members.

Diplomats say Austria is insisting that Turkey be offered a partnership with the EU as an explicit alternative to full membership.

Turkey has made it clear that it will walk away rather than negotiate for anything less than full membership.

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford says many in Turkey feel tricked by Europe, which they see as constantly moving the goalposts for accession.

The negotiations, once started, are expected to take about 10 years.

Croatian question

Turkey needs to make huge efforts to meet the stringent requirements for EU membership, including absorbing the 80,000-page EU rule book into its domestic law.

 

 

The European Commission has promised to monitor closely how Turkey proceeds. If it is deemed to be slipping backwards in theory or practice, then the commission will not hesitate to make its misgivings public.

In an open letter published on Thursday Italy's Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini said Turkey had "fully satisfied the conditions" laid down for opening membership talks on 3 October.

Turkey's bid represented "an opportunity for a major relaunch of the entire European project," he said, calling for an end to "our selfishness and uncertainties".

Separately, Croatia's plans to persuade the EU to revive membership negotiations received a setback after a top UN prosecutor attacked it for failing to prosecute a fugitive war criminal.

Correspondents say a more positive evaluation might have persuaded Austria, which wants to start Croatia's EU entry talks, to drop its objections to starting EU accession talks with Turkey on Monday.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4299626.stm

 

Published: 2005/10/01 10:07:44 GMT

 

© BBC MMV

[MosJan]

Hovannisian Says Turkey’s EU Talks ‘In Armenia’s Interests’

 

By Anna Saghabalian

 

Raffi Hovannisian, a prominent opposition politician, welcomed on Wednesday the launch of membership talks between Turkey and the European Union, saying that they could pave the way for Armenia’s eventual accession to the affluent Western bloc.

 

Hovannisian, who served as independent Armenia’s first foreign minister in 1992, chided the authorities in Yerevan for their less than enthusiastic reaction to what promises to be a lengthy negotiation process that got underway on Monday.

 

“It must be stated clearly and loudly that Turkey’s aspiration to join the European Union correspondents to the political interests of the Republic of Armenia,” he said in a speech at the Armenian Center for National and International Studies, a think-tank which he founded 11 years ago. “It can be predicted that even in the best-case scenario Turkey may become an EU member only together with Armenia. Turkey will also have to undergo serious and irreversible reforms.”

 

The administration of President Robert Kocharian believes that the EU should admit Turkey only if the latter opens its border with Armenia and recognizes as genocide the 1915 mass killings of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. Armenian leaders have repeatedly urged the EU’s governments and executive Commission to include the two issues on the agenda of the accession talks. In a statement on Tuesday, the Armenian Foreign Ministry expressed hope that Ankara will now be more interested in normalizing relations with Yerevan and admitting to the genocide.

 

Armenian Diaspora organizations in Europe and France in particular take a harder line, saying that Turkey is not prepared for even being considered for EU membership. Scuttling Turkish entry into the union is now a key goal of their activities.

 

However, some political groups in Armenia believe that the prospect of Turkey joining the EU could benefit their small landlocked country and lessen the perceived Turkish threat to its security.

 

Hovannisian appeared to agree with them, saying that the accession process makes Armenia’s future membership in the EU more realistic and represents a chance for Turkish-Armenian rapprochement. “Enmity can and should turn into partnership,” he said.

 

In his speech, Hovannisian also attacked the Kocharian administration’s domestic policies which he said have resulted in “unbridled and worsening corruption, legalized arbitrary practices and persisting poverty.” He reaffirmed his Zharangutyun (Heritage) party’s rejection of constitutional changes that will be put to a national referendum on November 27.

 

“[sweeping constitutional reform] can be put into practice only by a government that received a popular vote of confidence in a free and fair election,” he said. “Constitutional reforms [sought by Kocharian] remind of an unsuccessful attempt to hastily hide cracks in an old and decayed structure.”

 

Speaking to reporters separately, Hovannisian said Zharangutyun has yet to decide whether to campaign against the passage of the draft amendments jointly with other major opposition parties that are also against the reform. He said the decision will be made after talks with his opposition allies.

 

Armenia’s largest opposition alliance, Artarutyun, and eight other opposition groups plan to conduct a joint “no” campaign ahead of the November vote.

 

 

 

 

 

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[zurderer]

If Austria relents and allows “suleyman” to knock at the gates of Vienna again then they will have no one to blame but themselves when Austria is renamed “austurkia” and Vienna becomes a “vilayet”.

 

Good dreams, well for us. Lets hope you are right.

[MosJan]

Turks need 'cultural revolution' to join EU

By David Rennie in Brussels

(Filed: 05/10/2005)

 

Turkey must undergo a "major cultural revolution" if it is ever to join the European Union, France's President Jacques Chirac insisted yesterday.

 

That effort would take "at least 10 to 15 years", Mr Chirac said after a British-led diplomatic marathon cleared the way for Turkish accession talks in the early hours of yesterday.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2005/10/05/weu05.jpg

 

Work by artist Burak Delier

A visitor admires a work by artist Burak Delier of a woman covered by the EU flag

 

His words captured the mixed mood of alarm and relief among EU leaders as the historic process of entry talks began. Several said that another rejection by Europe would have pushed Turkey towards "hate" and Islamic fundamentalism.

 

But the same leaders - many of whose electorates are strongly opposed to Turkey's entry - gave a warning that it would take at least a decade of reforms before the Muslim nation of 70 million would be ready for Union membership.

 

Mr Chirac, an increasingly equivocal supporter of Turkish entry, danced around the question of whether Turkey would ever make it into the EU. "Will it succeed? I cannot say. I hope so," he said. "But I am not at all sure."

 

France and Austria have both promised their citizens referendums on Turkish entry. A recent European Commission opinion poll showed 70 per cent of French voters opposed to Turkish entry, and 80 per cent of Austrians.

 

EU

 

The talks opened only after weeks of intense British diplomacy. Austria fought to the bitter end to have the EU agreement with Turkey rewritten to play down the chances of full membership, only giving way an hour and a half before the scheduled start of talks.

 

The Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, said a rejected Turkey would have felt like a spurned lover.

 

He said: "If love is rejected, it can turn to hate."

 

david.rennie@telegraph.co.uk

[MosJan]

Turkey wins deal to start EU talks

By David Rennie in Luxembourg

(Filed: 04/10/2005)

 

Europe changed for ever last night after Britain secured agreement from all 25 EU nations to begin membership talks with Turkey.

 

The deal, which followed a sleepless night and two days of rows, paves the way for Turkey, a nation of 70 million Muslims, to join what has hitherto been a Christian club.

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2005/10/04/weu04.jpg

XXX

Exhausted: Jack Straw after the gruelling negotiations

 

Looking exhausted, Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, said: "This is a truly historic day for Europe. This has been a pretty gruelling 30 hours of negotiation."The entry of such a large Muslim state was "proof that we can live, work and prosper together".

 

Croatia will also begin entry talks after objections to its record on hunting war criminals were dropped.

 

During a day of intrigue and brinkmanship, Turkey had turned the tables on the EU and forced Mr Straw and other foreign ministers to wait anxiously at the summit in Luxembourg for final word on whether Ankara would accept the deal on offer.

 

A text setting out terms and conditions was finally sent to Ankara at 2.30pm London time, only an hour and a half before the formal deadline for Turkey to begin talks.

 

As darkness fell, Abdullah Gul, the Turkish foreign minister, announced: "Agreement has been reached and insh'Allah [Allah willing] we are heading for Luxembourg. Turkey has embarked on a new era." Mr Gul arrived in Luxembourg after midnight and went straight to a ceremony marking the beginning of talks over Turkish membership.

 

After 42 years of waiting, Turkey now faces years of talks in which every aspect of politics, human rights and civil liberties will be scrutinised by a sceptical EU. The process is due to end in 2014. Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's prime minister, had told the EU that it had the choice between embracing his nation and becoming a truly global power or admitting it was merely a "Christian club".

 

It emerged that Condoleezza Rice, the American secretary of state, had called Mr Erdogan to stop Turkey from giving up. Austria, where 80 per cent of voters are against Turkish entry, gave up almost all of its demands after standing alone in opposition.

 

Ursula Plassnik, its foreign minister, won only a form of words saying that entry would depend on the EU's ability to "absorb" new nations.

 

Austria's climbdown was made more palatable by good news for its close ally and neighbour Croatia, whose own EU membership talks were effectively unfrozen by a formal United Nations report that its government was "fully co-operating" in the hunt for indicted war criminals from the Yugoslav civil war.

 

In a major surprise the United Nations chief war crimes prosecutor, Carla del Ponte, reversed her earlier negative assessment on Croatia by saying that it was now "doing everything it could to locate and arrest" the indicted war criminal Gen Ante Gotovina.

[DominO123]

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's prime minister, had told the EU that it had the choice between embracing his nation and becoming a truly global power or admitting it was merely a "Christian club".

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

What an arrogance,... I fail to see how, by 2014, Turkeys demographic would be close reaching the one of Germany, and with the highest recession in the EU. Predictions shows that Turkey will slow down Europe more than making of it a global superpower.

[Harut]

there is no secret really that turkey has shown arrogance and agressiveness throughout this process... it seems as if turkey is pushing its way through without even caring about the facts that they don't really fit in eu, that they have so little in common with the eu member countries, that even if it ends up in eu it's going to be the unwanted child... we have seen many times how turkish politicians and the public in general responds to the eu critisizms... sentiments such as "europe doesn't want to accept us because we are different" have been aired many times... well duuuuhhh... being an eu coutry is not only about receiving a wellfare check and pushing your agenda through a powerful organization... it's about finding common values and promoting them... it's about recognizing common problems and working on fixing them... how can turkey even think about joining eu, if they themselves admit that "they are different" (i would suppose their values are differnt)? how can turkey even want to join the union, when what eu defines clear problems, turkey accepts them as normal phenomenons (human rights issues, freedom of speech, women and minority rights issues, etc...)? we've also heard statements such as "europe wants to strip us from our national pride and traditions"... the most puzzling part is that most who express such statements enthusiastically support turkey's bid to join eu... well duuuuhhhh again... where have they seen a healthy working union whose members hold high national pride and each sticks to their way of lives? of course joining a union means lowering down your national pride... of course joining a union means giving up some of your traditions... of course joining a union means adopting common grounds... it just seems to me that turkey tries to define what's eu and draw rules even before joining it...

with all that said, of course, as a citizen of armenia i would like to have a direct boarder with eu, whether that's for economic, political, or cultural interchangablity reasons... of course, i would like to have a neighbor who embraces current european values and worldview... of course, i would like to have a neighbor who is part of such a union and not ultranationalistic who would do anything to have it all for a single national/ethnic group (genocide, oppression, etc...) or save a face (jailing writers, silencing political figures, etc...)... but unfortunately turkey is nowhere near that, nor is it willing to change...

[Takoush]

Arabic? I was always under the impression that it was bar-beric.

 

Who said that Europeans are pro-Turk? Ever talk to a German? -- They hate Turks. In college, everyone who has had any kind of interaction with them ended up with a strong dislike of them. One year on my floor in the dorms, there was a Turk from Istambul, and his roomate hated him.

I liked that skhara on the quoted first paragraph. BAR-BERIC indeed.

 

On the second quoted paragraph, I am sure they are hated, because they are sellfish, only political for their bloody self and plus they are smelly and dirty. Who in the world would like them?

[Takoush]

If Austria relents and allows “suleyman” to knock at the gates of Vienna again then they will have no one to blame but themselves when Austria is renamed “austurkia” and Vienna becomes a “vilayet”.

 

Good dreams, well for us. Lets hope you are right.

Yerani teh kouh ourakhoutyounet poret menah yev kez charchare yote kelkhani anidzabab martasban gentani tourk.

 

What an arrogance,... I fail to see how, by 2014, Turkeys demographic would be close reaching the one of Germany, and with the highest recession in the EU. Predictions shows that Turkey will slow down Europe more than making of it a global superpower.

Yes of course. How can they be an asset to Europe when their backward mentality and lazy state becomes part of EU. Europe better open their eyes wide open and see what's coming if they embrace Turkey within the EU, that would be the WORST decision ever.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

there is no secret really that turkey has shown arrogance and agressiveness throughout this process... it seems as if turkey is pushing its way through without even caring about the facts that they don't really fit in eu, that they have so little in common with the eu member countries, that even if it ends up in eu it's going to be the unwanted child... we have seen many times how turkish politicians and the public in general responds to the eu critisizms... sentiments such as "europe doesn't want to accept us because we are different" have been aired many times... well duuuuhhh... being an eu coutry is not only about receiving a wellfare check and pushing your agenda through a powerful organization... it's about finding common values and promoting them... it's about recognizing common problems and working on fixing them... how can turkey even think about joining eu, if they themselves admit that "they are different" (i would suppose their values are differnt)? how can turkey even want to join the union, when what eu defines clear problems, turkey accepts them as normal phenomenons (human rights issues, freedom of speech, women and minority rights issues, etc...)? we've also heard statements such as "europe wants to strip us from our national pride and traditions"... the most puzzling part is that most who express such statements enthusiastically support turkey's bid to join eu... well duuuuhhhh again... where have they seen a healthy working union whose members hold high national pride and each sticks to their way of lives? of course joining a union means lowering down your national pride... of course joining a union means giving up some of your traditions... of course joining a union means adopting common grounds... it just seems to me that turkey tries to define what's eu and draw rules even before joining it...

with all that said, of course, as a citizen of armenia i would like to have a direct boarder with eu, whether that's for economic, political, or cultural interchangablity reasons... of course, i would like to have a neighbor who embraces current european values and worldview... of course, i would like to have a neighbor who is part of such a union and not ultranationalistic who would do anything to have it all for a single national/ethnic group (genocide, oppression, etc...) or save a face (jailing writers, silencing political figures, etc...)... but unfortunately turkey is nowhere near that, nor is it willing to change...

Well said Harut, shad abres.

 

Armenia would love to have such a neighbor, but these people (the turks) they obviously do not seem to ever change throughout history or now. Their foremost agenda is to conquor Europe and Armenia. Their only agenda is to create an empire of a Republic of Turkey from the shores of England all through the middle of Asia to Turkmenistan where they initially came from to Armenia on or about the 12th century.

 

I tell you from the 11 to the 12th century, these Mongolian Turks never did change their ways; their agenda and their wanting to conquor the world. That's what they have been after and still that's what they are after now.

 

EUROPE better open their eyes and not to repeat the past. For their own good as well as for ours, they better not accept them in the EU. Such as your thoughts Harut, I more then voice them myself as well; THE TURKS DO NOT BELONG IN THE EUROPEAN UNION, AS THEY HAVE NO COMMON GROUNDS WHATSOEVER, BE IT WITH EUROPE OR THE EUROPEAN UNION.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Arpa]

I can’t understand our protectiveness of Europe.

When was the last time Europe actually and sincerely cared for us?

In fact not only we should not try and prevent their onslaught on Europe, on the contrary we should promote, not only we should not try and discourage them, on the contrary we should encourage them. History is once again repeating itself. In re of what I said above about “Austurkia” and Vienna, we know that when the Turks first arrived in Asia minor their aim was to enter Europe. Yes, they did harass us and at times massacred us, but as you know they were not really interested in Armenia as much as they were in conquering Constantinople and subsequently beyond. The rest is history as we know. During those years, of course, having virtually subjugated Armenia they paid little attention to the east, their main aim was conquering Europe, and they almost did until the Europeans finally woke up and pushed them to “where they came from”, so to speak.

Having been repulsed from and by Europe they, all of a sudden remember their Turkic and Turanic origin, saying; “Hey, what business do w have in Europe that does not want us anyway, let‘s get back to our roots, Turan”. And guess who and what was the immediate obstacle. That is when they turned their direction from the west/Europe to the east/Armenia, and we know what happened.

Let us not let history repeat again. Let them get the f**** out of Asia Minor, let them go to Europe who seem to be enamored with them anyway. Let them vacate our lands, let them all move to Germany and on. Wait till they actually join the union and earn the right to travel sans visa. Perhaps not only the Germans should consider making the Turkish their official language, but that of the entire Europe. The Europeans may think that they can manage them, they seem to forget that these people have ten times the fertility than the average European, with heir moronic Islamic laws not only each marriage produces a dozen brats, with Islamic laws allowing polygamy (officially limited to 4) the number of brats will be multiplied by four. How long will it take for Europe to completely overrun.

 

Let them go to Europe, let them go to hell, be it Europe or even America,(Europe will only a stepping stone to that end) let them get the hell out of our homeland.

 

Lest history repeat itself again, rejected and repulsed by Europe hey turn their eyes back to the east. Even though his time around Armenians are not “tshvar anter” as the original lines of Mer Hayrenik alludes. Send them over, maybe now we can justify those clowns masquerading as historian-shmistorians’ claim that we genocided them.

 

PS. Europe may be hoping to have cheap labor and readymade bathroom cleaners. Will they ever be surprised after a generation. Wait till those veiled and with Islamic head cover Turkish "khanums" make their frauleins clean their stinking toilets.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Arpa

[gamavor]

I can’t understand our protectiveness of Europe.

When was the last time Europe actually and sincerely cared for us?

In fact not only we should not try and prevent their onslaught on Europe, on the contrary we should promote, not only we should not try and discourage them, on the contrary we should encourage them.

 

Exactly my sentiments. Europeans almost always sided with the Turks against us. Plus, it is in our best interest politically and economically if Turkey joins EU.

[MosJan]

KOCHARIAN'S BRUSSELS VISIT WAS A HUGE SUCCESS FOR ARMENIA

 

Turkish Sources Confirm This Fact Too

 

During his Brussels visit, Armenian president Robert Kocharian held meetings with Josep Borrell, president of the European Parliament, Javier Solana, high representative for the CFSP, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, NATO secretary general, Jose Manuel Barroso, president of the European Commission, as well as Belgian prime minister and Senate chairwoman. Accompanied by Senate chairwoman Anne-Marie Lizin, Robert Kocharian laid a wreath to the memorial of Armenian genocide victims in Brussels.

 

The Turkish mass media headed by Zaman daily and NTV touched upon Kocharian's visit proving once again that the visit was indeed a success.

 

Still on October 21, NTV responded to Kocharian-Borrell meeting noting that the Armenian President urged the EU to exert pressure on Turkey in the issues of Armenian Genocide acknowledgement and opening Armenian-Turkish border. The NTV said meanwhile: "At the end of his meeting with Kocharian European Parliament's president Josep Borrell emphasized that Turkey should recognize genocide claims."

 

In an article titled "Kocharian Leaves Brussels Satisfied; Solana Opposes Kars-Ahilkalak Line" Zaman daily wrote on October 24: "European Parliament President Borrell, in his meeting with Kocharian, justified that Turkey's acceptance of the Armenian "genocide" and the removal of the "blockage" towards Armenia are conditions for its membership to the Union and that he supports the European Parliament’s attitude regarding the issue."

 

The Turkish paper writes that Kocharian was "satisfied with "support" he received from the European Union regarding making the acceptance of "Armenian genocide" a condition for Turkey's membership and about the issue of opening the Armenian border" and singles out Kocharian-Solana meeting.

 

Zaman refers to European Armenian Federation in its statement concerning Kocharian-Solana meeting and says that "Solana and Kocharian handled the Kars-Ahilkalak-Tbilisi-Baku railway project opposed by the Armenia and that Solana supported the Armenian thesis against this project."

 

EU representatives told Zaman: "Solana approached the issue in a very pragmatic way. Such a railway will not be necessary if the problems between the two countries are solved and that not using the current line would be a waste, but all these are totally pragmatic considerations. Solana is fully aware of Turkey's sensitivities about the issue and he understands these concerns."

 

Zaman also touched on the visit of RA President and Belgian parliament chairwoman to the monument of Genocide victims and adds: "The senate, which could not pass the law that imposes punishment on those denying the Armenian "genocide," is preparing a new draft resolution concerning the "genocide". The proposal presented to the Senate is expected to come to the agenda in the Senate Foreign Affairs Commission in the upcoming weeks."

 

By Hakob Chakrian

[ExtraHye]

Killings From 90 Years Ago

Haunt Turkey in its EU Bid

May 16, 2005

 

(See Corrections & Amplifications item below.)

 

The Ottoman empire's deportation and mass killing of Armenians 90 years ago has become a tense issue for modern-day Turkey, which is being pressured by the European Union and some of its member nations to acknowledge the actions as genocide and open up its archives. And questionable numbers are a central part of the controversy.

 

Armenia argues that as many as 1.5 million Armenians were massacred. But Turkey says the number of dead was no more than 600,000 and possibly far fewer, and says the killings were justified as the product of armed conflicts that swept the region at the time. Scholars disagree on the number, and politics have obstructed honest statistical debate.

 

Some background: In the final years of the Ottoman empire -- which stretched from modern-day Turkey to much of Europe, northern Africa and the Middle East for more than 600 years -- a Turkish nationalist government led mass deportations and killings of Armenians. The violence lasted from 1915 until the early 1920s. Modern-day Turkey says the targeted Armenians, an ethnic minority present throughout the empire, had conspired with Russians in military operations against the empire, and that Armenians' revolutionary actions against the state spurred the mass deportations. Neither Turkey nor Armenia existed as nations during the violence, yet many Turks and Armenians line up today to defend their ethnic groups' historical records.

 

Immigration, trade issues and Turkey's Muslim majority -- which would be unique in the EU -- all are playing a large role in the run up to negotiations over membership, scheduled to begin in October. Against this backdrop, Turkey's historical dispute with Armenia has emerged as a potential stumbling block to membership. Heiki Talvitie, the EU's special representative to the South Caucasus, said recently at a press conference that Turkey's membership chances hinged in part on its relations with Armenia, according to Agence France Presse. Currently the countries have no diplomatic relations, and a major reason is the dispute over whether the Ottomans committed genocide. In the past decade, national legislatures of several EU members, including France, Italy and the Netherlands, have called the killings genocide. The U.S. and Turkey have not.

 

Disputed death tolls often follow genocide, according to Richard Garfield, a professor of nursing at Columbia University who has extensively studied mass killings. "The politicization of mortality data means that controversy and wide variations in estimates is the norm," Dr. Garfield says. He has worked in Liberia, Yugoslavia and Haiti, helping to improve death counts from modern-day conflicts.

 

Of course, I can't conclusively determine how many Armenians died. But I'll explain how scholars arrived at their estimates and why counting the dead is such a complex business.

 

Even in a political vacuum, counting the dead from nearly a century ago would be difficult. The killers had no reason to tally their victims, nor were international organizations in place to monitor the killing. So researchers have employed a brute tool: subtraction. They compare the number of Armenians before World War I with the number of survivors, who were spread across many surrounding countries. The difference in population becomes the number of victims. Of course, that doesn't account for newborns. It also includes deaths from disease and starvation, and while those deaths may be related to the killings, it's debatable whether they should be included in the overall count. "There really isn't the information to make an evidence-based consensus about how many people died," Dr. Garfield says.

 

As I noted in a previous column, even today in some parts of the world population counts are unreliable. All the more so, then, in rural areas of the Ottoman empire. Before the killings there were two parallel efforts to count the living -- one by the Ottomans, and one by the Armenian church -- but there are suggestions both groups' motivations may have affected their accuracy (more on that in a moment). So researchers trying to arrive at a death count adjust the population numbers, and those adjustments can have a big impact on end results. For example, count more prewar Armenians, and you'll get a higher death toll.

 

Tuluy Tanc, minister counselor of the Turkish embassy in Washington, cited death counts to me as low as 8,000 to 9,000, based on records Ottomans kept. But those doing the killing are hardly credible sources for a death toll. Mr. Tanc said he wouldn't insist on any particular set of numbers, saying his government has also recognized estimates up to 600,000. "There are many, many different sources," he says. The embassy's Web site cites figures between 500,000 and 600,000.

 

Justin McCarthy, a professor at the University of Louisville, arrived at a count of 600,000 dead by using official Ottoman population registrations. He adjusted for an assumed undercounting of women and children, a common problem in unsophisticated population counts, and arrived at a prewar population of 1.5 million for Armenians living in the eastern part of the Ottoman empire, known as Anatolia. Then he counted 900,000 survivors, based on official data from Russia and other countries where they settled. Dr. McCarthy published his findings in 1983; they were double many earlier estimates.

 

In 1991, Levon Marashlian, a professor of history at Glendale Community College in Glendale, Calif., published a critique accusing Dr. McCarthy of undercounting. Among his arguments: Armenians were likely undercounted because they hid from officials during the conflict. "If you hide, you're not taxed, you're not conscripted," Dr. Marashlian told me. And he says the Ottomans had their own reasons to undercount: "The Ottoman government had the motivation to show as few Armenians as possible, because the Europeans were pressuring Ottomans to institute reforms." He cites contemporary accounts that indicate the Ottomans were suppressing the numbers. Dr. Marashlian thus adjusts Dr. McCarthy's prewar estimates higher, and notes that the new results are closer to the Armenian church's own numbers. He concludes there were two million Armenians before the war, and he counts only 800,000 survivors, yielding an estimated total of 1.2 million dead.

 

Dr. McCarthy, in turn, says the Ottomans' adult male records were accurate, and disputes the Armenian church's numbers.

 

"The Ottomans in general were good counters," says Columbia's Dr. Garfield, but he adds that the Ottomans' population figures -- 1.5 million for the eastern part of the empire, after Dr. McCarthy's adjustments -- are suspect because a harbinger of genocide is the undercounting of the targeted group. "It's a step toward their nonpersonhood," he says.

 

George Aghjayan, an actuary who sits on the eastern region board of the Armenian National Committee of America, has also studied Dr. McCarthy's numbers in detail. He sent me a lengthy critique by e-mail. Among his arguments: Many Armenian men traveled outside the empire for work, which would contribute to undercounting of prewar adult males; and that Dr. McCarthy's technique for estimating Armenian survivors who ended up in Russia could lead to overcounting. The bottom line, according to Mr. Aghjayan: By undercounting prewar Armenians and overcounting survivors, Dr. McCarthy would undercount the dead.

 

An estimate of 1.5 million deaths has become the standard number in op-ed articles and news accounts of Armenian versions. That's the number on the Armenian National Institute's Web site. Rouben Adalian, director of the institute, concedes the number is an estimate that includes additional Armenian deaths related to the fallout of the original killings. He says he is confident that an estimate of more than one million "is very secure."

 

In the academic ideal, researchers could come together at conferences and meetings and work toward a consensus figure. But there is too much venom in the air. Armenian advocacy groups and some scientists I spoke to labeled Dr. McCarthy a Turkish apologist. He, in turn, speaks dismissively of some of his critics. "It's hard to say this is scholarly debate," he told me. "It's two sides presenting their position and not talking to each other." Meanwhile, Armenian scholars charge the Turkish government with limiting access to the Ottoman archives to some favored researchers, preventing new information from emerging and possibly helping to clarify the debate.

 

"I think 100 years from now, our debate about Armenian events will not be that different than it is today, because we have limited, conflicting information," Dr. Garfield says.

 

Some advocates and scholars I contacted for this article said pinning down exact numbers isn't necessary. Dennis R. Papazian writes on the Web site of the Armenian Research Center at University of Michigan-Dearborn, where he serves as director: "Does it really make the actions of Turkey better if they succeeded in killing only 600,000 Armenians and not 1.5 million? …In any case, it was genocide."

 

Are death tolls from today's conflicts bound to be disputed a century hence? It's a question worth asking in light of the continued Armenian controversy. Les Roberts, a research associate at Johns Hopkins University who has worked on counting the dead in Congo, Rwanda and Sierra Leone, painted a dismaying picture of current efforts. In an e-mail from Afghanistan, he mentioned two key challenges. First, "No one can agree on how to define the death toll from a conflict, just the deaths from intentional violence or all those that died because the violence occurred." (The Armenian numbers include both.) And, secondly, "No one is charged or expected to count the deaths from conflict. The [international Committee of the Red Cross] avoids the topic so that they can work with all sides. The press is bad at it. The public health crowd is very adverse to being killed so they rarely estimate deaths until conflicts are over."

 

But Columbia's Dr. Garfield was more hopeful, saying that methods have improved markedly; researchers, for instance, survey refugees in camps during ongoing conflicts about mortality among friends and neighbors. "I am optimistic about our ability to provide people with a better base," Dr. Garfield says. "It makes it harder to lie."

 

link

[MosJan]

Jean-Marie Lepen: US Want to Push Turkey into EU

04.11.2005 00:47 GMT+04:00 Print version Send to mail

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ «Turkey is on the way of Islamization. As compared to the Eastern Europe, Turkey does not follow a way of becoming more secular,» stated Chairman of National Front Party of France Jean-Marie Le Pen in the course of a news conference in Limassol, Cyprus. He censured the US for overthrowing secular governments of the Near East, including those in Syria and Iraq. Le Pen reaffirmed his indisputable oppositionist stand towards Turkey's accession to the EU. «Americans actually want to push Turkey into the EU,» he stated. In his words, apparently Turks are not Europeans either in geographic, historical or cultural respects. «Europe may be composed only of European countries,» remarked Le Pen. During Le Pen's news conference a group of Greeks organized a rally with transparencies «Hitler, Le Pen – let them never be again». In response Le Pen stated, «Let them organize their rally in Ankara.»

[Dave]

Turk jailed for 22 years for desecrating Ataturk busts

 

04.11.2005 - 09:57 CET | By Mark Beunderman Just days before a key EU report on Turkey’s human rights record, an Ankara court has sentenced a Turkish man to 22 and a half years in prison for smearing oil paint on busts of Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey.

 

According to press reports, 30 year old Murat Vural this year on five occasions tipped paint on busts of Turkey’s founding father in an Ankara suburb.

 

Mr Vural was subsequently arrested and charged under a Turkish constitutional law protecting the late Mr Ataturk from insults and desecration.

 

The Ankara court sentenced Mr Vural to four and a half years for each of the five incidents, amounting to a total of 22 and a half years.

 

The Turkish TV station NTV reports that Mr Vural said in his defence that lack of love and unemployment prompted his actions.

 

In EU member states themselves, limited jail sentences exist for insults against, for example, a head of state.

 

In the Netherlands, citizens "insulting" the queen risk a jail penalty of a maximum of five years.

 

The news of the Vural ruling comes just as the European Commission is preparing a crucial progress report that will focus on the Turkish human rights situation.

 

The report, due on 9 November, is set to highlight failures by Turkish courts to implement a new penal code that Ankara was forced to adopt as part of its bid to become an EU member.

 

Implementation failures were recently highlighted following charges by an Istanbul prosecutor against the Turkish author Orhan Pamuk, who raised the issue of the 1915 Armenian genocide.

 

The charges were made in spite of the adoption of the fresh penal code.

[Eloren]

These last few events in Europe are baaad news for Turkey's membership.

 

I was just reading about the events again in France, these riots in the suburbs all over the country. Analysts also fear these riots could spread all over Europe.

 

Now, true or not, the media is talking about those young rioters as "Arab/Black Muslims". True that most of them are.

With the events these last years in Europe (Madrid bombing, UK bombing, Theo Van gogh's assasination, riots in France..), being a muslim is not easy. With the media amplifying the events and insisting on the "islamist terrorists", the population of Europe is slowly starting to fear.. (and hate?) muslims.

 

Turkey IS a muslim country, Turkey has also a history of barbaric acts that they are still denying (Genocide, Cyprus..). In my opinion, if things are carrying on like this and if (Asdvads Tchene) the riots spread all over Europe.. The EU will want to remain a "christian club" thus closing the door to our poor Turkish neighbours.. Even Armenia has more chance to get in the EU in the next 10 years than Turkey!

 

Just my opinion..

[Arpa]

These last few events in Europe are baaad news for Turkey's membership.

======

Turkey IS a muslim country, Turkey has also a history of barbaric acts that they are still denying (Genocide, Cyprus..). In my opinion, if things are carrying on like this and if (Asdvads Tchene) the riots spread all over Europe.. The EU will want to remain a "christian club" thus closing the door to our poor Turkish neighbours.. Even Armenia has more chance to get in the EU in the next 10 years than Turkey!

 

Just my opinion..

Tsk, tsk! :)

Have you not heard that Turkey is "secular Islamic", whatever the hell that may mean.

Is that an oxymoronic contradiction in terms or what!