Turkey In The Eu?

[DominO123]

Turkey is a defacto military dictatorship despite all the lip service paid to democracy. I think the military have recognized that being in the background is much more comfortable than being on the forefront. The military are very popular in Turkey and were they running the show directly, I am not sure this would be the case.

 

In any case, Turkey in the EU may just mean two things: the EU will desintegrate (and this is not a crazy Armenian theory, I will go into more detail in the future) or the most likley, wishful thinking.

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I personally don't oppose Turkeys candidature because of anything Armenian.

 

I just find it ironic that Turkey is even trying to be part of the EU.

 

First, beside Istanbul, there isn't much of Europe in Turkey.

 

Second, Turkey is NOT a democracy(I think this is about what you said). The military has the right(and under the LAW) to dismiss any democratically elected deputy, EVEN A PRINE MINISTER!!! It has even to give its accord for a newly elected government to take power. In that regard even Iran is more democratic. The head of the government in Turkey is the military, therefore, YOU DO NOT elect the head of the government. A democratic system imply that you do elect the head of the government, if you do not elect it, the system is NOT democratic.

 

Third, Turkey is a backward country, and no I am not saying this because I hate this country. Turkey has a record of human right abuses, any improvement are superficial... in that regard no any states in the EU come close to Turkey, Turkey set the record in the region, compeating with backward Islamic countries. But in this cases, it is worst, perverted Nationalism can in some cases be worst than Religious foundamentalism, because it brings a form of racism.

 

...

 

Not only Europe will disintegrate, but it will integrate the desintegration of the continent.

 

Conclusion? Turkey wants the destruction of Europe...

[DominO123]

I very much agree with Boghos. Europe and Turkey are two very, very different worlds. I don't think that Americans would ever understand this. I don't think that British are European either.

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Anericans do understand that. This is their best bet to destroy Europe.

[Arpa]

Semantically speaking Turkey cannot be part of Europe, neither can it be geographically even if a slice of it may be in Europe.

In fact this whole thing about EU is semantically and geographically incorrect. When one seapks of Europe one pictures a handful of countries, namely Germany, France and the scandinavians, one does not even peicture Italy or Spain in it.

Once Turkey gets in who will be next? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? the Phillipines?

Unless they intend to create a new acronym for the union the entry of Turkey will forever change the name of the CONTINENT.

[DominO123]

Semantically speaking Turkey cannot be part of Europe, neither can it be geographically even if a slice of it may be in Europe.

In fact this whole thing about EU is semantically and geographically incorrect. When one seapks of Europe one pictures a handful of countries, namely Germany, France and the scandinavians, one does not even peicture Italy or Spain in it.

Once Turkey gets in who will be next? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? the Phillipines?

Unless they intend to create a new acronym for the union the entry of Turkey will forever change the name of the CONTINENT.

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I'm sure that in some way Canada is part of Europe too... Some phytoplanctum, little organisms or part of Canada by errosion made their journey from by the Atlantic and immigrated to Europe... connecting us to them.

 

I'm lobbying for Canada to be part of Europe.

[Armen]

I think the military have recognized that being in the background is much more comfortable than being on the forefront.

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The ultimate power broker in Turkey is not only the military. Some hold that is the so called "deep state". See here:

 

http://www.cornellcaspian.com/publications...0210_Turkey.pdf

 

I was takling to an guy from Turkey recently. He mentioned that over the whole course of modern Turkey it had a very strong shadow government. He was talking about some structure of the Turkish government where a line of hierarchy led by Jumurbashkan (actually who is Jumurbashkan?) prevails over others. Don't know the exact details. Maybe someone could clarify.

[Twilight Bark]

Turkey is a defacto military dictatorship despite all the lip service paid to democracy. I think the military have recognized that being in the background is much more comfortable than being on the forefront. The military are very popular in Turkey and were they running the show directly, I am not sure this would be the case.

 

In any case, Turkey in the EU may just mean two things: the EU will desintegrate (and this is not a crazy Armenian theory, I will go into more detail in the future) or the most likley, wishful thinking.

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That pretty much sums it up. Except that I would paraphrase "disintegrate". It would reverse the "ever closer integration"" drive by the "core" countries (well, France and Germany really). The thing would probably survive as a bunch of loosely associated states, willing to cooperate and harmonize on judicial and economic matters. And, as Domino said, this would fit the US just fine. Who needs a "second pole", right?

 

On the other hand, the idea of "multiple-speed Europe" would probably gain more prominence, without formally dismantling the EU on paper. A cluster of "true" European countries, led by France and Germany, might emerge as an "inner core" that would have a freer hand in deciding whom they would like to be "integrated" with. This is not a new idea.

 

At the outer edges, EU may go with the "oh, what the heck" philosophy and start courting Russia, to balance the odd newcomer. This has not shown up on the radar screen yet, largely because it would signify the end of EU "as we know it", even if not on paper. An EU with France and Russia in it would not please the US, so that route would be "discouraged" every step of the way by using the trojan horse, err, I mean, Britain. But then, it may not be enough.

 

Oh, incidentally, all of the above is probably amateur nonsense

But I had to procrastinate a little bit before starting to tax my brain with real work.

Edited September 13, 2004 by Twilight Bark

[Twilight Bark]

The ultimate power broker in Turkey is not only the military. Some hold that is the so called "deep state". See here:

 

http://www.cornellcaspian.com/publications...0210_Turkey.pdf

 

I was takling to an guy from Turkey recently. He mentioned that over the whole course of modern Turkey it had a very strong shadow government. He was talking about some structure of the Turkish government where a line of hierarchy led by Jumurbashkan (actually who is Jumurbashkan?) prevails over others. Don't know the exact details. Maybe someone could clarify.

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He was probably talking about the "National Security Council", where the generals can tell the civilian administration what to do on things that really matter. The president heads the thing, but until recently the "civilian" president invariably "just happened to be" an ex-general, so there was no ambiguity about who was in charge. The current president (Ahmet Necdet Sezer) I think is really a civilian (came from the judiciary). However, I don't think that changes anything; the presidency does not wield real power. In any case, everyone knows who has the tanks and the guns. And a truly behind-the-scenes power center, if it exists, would be more inconspicuous.

[DominO123]

The ultimate power broker in Turkey is not only the military. Some hold that is the so called "deep state". See here:

 

http://www.cornellcaspian.com/publications...0210_Turkey.pdf

 

I was takling to an guy from Turkey recently. He mentioned that over the whole course of modern Turkey it had a very strong shadow government. He was talking about some structure of the Turkish government where a line of hierarchy led by Jumurbashkan (actually who is Jumurbashkan?) prevails over others. Don't know the exact details. Maybe someone could clarify.

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When Boghos talk about military, he is not only talking about men of action. The military include all those shadow figures that have as charge to protect Kemalism. During Ataturk era, Ataturk indirectly founded the opposition party to have a hand on any opposition. Ataturkist Turkey was a military gouvernment. This later transformed to what is known as a "parallel" government, one of those is elected and the other is the continuation of the Ataturkist government. The parties elected are the opposition, and the military is the continuity of the Ataturk government that has as charge to preserve the Kemalism.

 

This is how you have laws such as: "Crimes against Ataturk." In Turkey.

 

So the Shadow here is really the military, in a form or the other, it is those that have a control on the Turkish army. The Turkish army in Turkey is not the posession of the artificial government, rather it is in the possession of this "Shadow" government that can judge and dismiss ministers and deputies.

[DominO123]

Ah and bashkan is the "head" in this cases seen as Jumur head of state.

[gamavor]

Anericans do understand that. This is their best bet to destroy Europe. 

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Europeans know that and showed Americans what TB calls in scientific terms "MIDDLE FINGER"!

[Arpa]

I was takling to an guy from Turkey recently. He mentioned that over the whole course of modern Turkey it had a very strong shadow government. He was talking about some structure of the Turkish government where a line of hierarchy led by Jumurbashkan (actually who is Jumurbashkan?) prevails over others. Don't know the exact details. Maybe someone could clarify.

 

Bshkan is based on "bash/head (man?)" It is commonly used to denote "president". Jumhur is from the Arabic to mean "public/people" as in "jumhurie-t/republic". Therefore a "jumhur bashkan" would be the president of the republic, or more precisely president of the people.

 

Regardless what the above article says Turkey has had heads of murderous hordes, sultans, kings, dictators, presidents yet neither of them hase moved even one inch out of their piece of ill gotten land.

 

Is there a lesson for us her?

[Arpa]

One other benefit of Turkey in the EURO circle is, they can send all the Liras to Armenia to be used as fuel.

Has anyone seen the currency exchange lately. 1.8 million to the Dollar and 1.8 million to the Euro. There is also news that as of Jan. 2005 Turkey will remove 6 zeroes from its currency, i.e. 1 million old lira converted to 1 new lira.

Then again, how long will it take for the new lira to to be reduced to value of the old one. At that rate it will not be too long for the Euro to be reduced to the value of toilet paper.

Once a welfare state always a welfare state. Of course now that they don't have the Armenians to pay exorbitant taxes to support their militaristic adventures.

 

Uncle Sam, or Uncle Jacques to the rescue.

Edited September 14, 2004 by Arpa

[DominO123]

One other benefit of Turkey in the EURO circle is, they can send all the Liras to Armenia to be used as fuel.

Has anyone seen the currency exchange lately. 1.8 million to the Dollar and 1.8 million to the Euro. There is also news that as of Jan. 2005 Turkey will remove 6 zeroes from its currency, i.e. 1 million old lira converted to 1 new lira.

Then again, how long will it take for the new lira to to be reduced to value of the old one.

Once a welfare state always a welfare state. Of course now that they don't have the Armenians to pay exorbitant taxes to support their militaristic adventures.

 

Uncle Sam, or Uncle Jacques to the rescue.

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How can one think of doing that after what happened to Argentina (conversion etc...)

[Arpa]

I wonder if the Europeans are reading this;

 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/831629.cms

 

If their hope is that Turkey is a source of cheap labor now, wait till they join the EURO monetary family.

[Boghos]

I think I have already written somewhere in HF that I believe that in the next decade or so, once Russia gets its act together that it will be the preferential ally for the Franco-Teutonic agreement also called EU. Russia has the resources, political, military and economic, it is part of the continent and it has serious ambitions that will be much harder to develop, or actually impossible to develop on a stand alone basis. The USSR is dead and buried, the future lies in Europe. Similarly, Germany and France find in Russia a very good fit. Such thesis has been circulating in European circles for a time already and has been very clearly put in Aprés l´Empire, a best seller both in Germany and France by an interesting French demographer of partial American ancestry called Emanuel Todd. Over time I think it will become clear that Turkey has virtually little or no leverage and it will be relegated to an even more secondary role. It has a hope of remaining under the US/Israeli umbrella, but in my view that´s about it. The EU has very little to gain from a chaotic dictatorship such as Turkey and a lot to lose, Russia is a much better and reliable partner.

[THOTH]

From Yesterday's Washington post. I can actually agree with much of this - however a very rosey pictures and one that glosses over many very serious issues - AG being one...and other issues of Turkish suitability and just how great a model Turkey is (or isn't) and just how much will Arab and other Muslims ever look to the (disliked...at best) Turks. But I do agree that ultimatly it is in the best ionterest of Europe and the West for Turkey to eventually be integrated and I think that the standards will and are forcing Turkey to positive reform - and I certainly see this as a good thing - and hopefully somethaing that will last nad feed on itself and not just be lip service...

 

 

Rejecting Turkey, And the Future

 

By Fareed Zakaria

 

Tuesday, September 21, 2004; Page A21

 

 

Here's a quiz: Over the past two years, which developing country has undertaken the most dramatic economic, political and social reforms in the world? Some hints: This country has deregulated its economy, simplified its tax code and put its fiscal house in order, resulting in 8.2 percent growth this year and a 10 percent rise in productivity. It has passed nine packages of major reforms that have reduced the military's influence in government, enshrined political dissent and religious pluralism, passed strict laws against torture, abolished the death penalty, and given substantial rights to a long-oppressed minority.

 

The answer is Turkey. Even if it were not a Muslim country situated in the Middle East (sort of), its performance would be stunning. And yet, thanks to events last week, its long quest to become a full member of the European Union may be thwarted.

 

The Turkish government's insistence on introducing a law making adultery a criminal offense may have derailed matters. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has angrily pointed out that the issue of adultery is not part of the criteria laid out by the European Union. He's right technically, but foolish politically. The reality is that there are many in Europe who want to keep Turkey out of the union because it is large, poor and, most important, because it is Muslim. The adultery law gives them a highly public issue to symbolize their fears.

 

But even if the adultery law passes, so what? European hysteria about this is absurd. Many are claiming that this represents the dangers of Islam in Europe. Have Europeans forgotten their own history? Adultery is banned in the Ten Commandments and was a criminal offense in almost every European country until recently. Ireland abolished such a law in 1981, France in 1975, Italy in 1969. In the United States, 23 states still have such laws on the books.

 

Don't get me wrong: I am opposed to the Turkish law. But to judge a developing country such as Turkey by the standards of postmodern Europe circa 2004 seems to miss the point. If Turkey were a fully modernized society, it wouldn't need E.U. membership. Besides, were Turkey to become an E.U. member, the adultery law would quickly be null and void, since the European courts would rule against it.

 

What is being lost in the uproar over adultery is that even last week, while debating this one relatively trivial issue, the Turkish parliament passed 218 laws that reform the penal code in accordance with the European Union's criteria. Turkey's record of reform is the equal of most previous candidates for E.U. membership. A distinguished group of Europeans, including former Finnish prime minister Martti Ahtisaari, released a report two weeks ago pointing out that Turkey compares well with two other E.U. applicants, Bulgaria and Romania.

 

And what is truly being lost is perhaps the most significant point: All these progressive, modernizing moves are being made by a ruling party that represents the people, unlike so many of the liberals in the Arab world, who are an unelected elite. The AK Party has shown that a devotion to Islam is compatible with liberalism, pluralism and democracy. For this reason it is the most powerful symbol of modern Islam in the world today, a symbol that could have resonance for the Middle East, Europe's own Muslim population and the entire Islamic world.

 

For decades people have held up Turkey as a model for Muslim politics. But as Graham Fuller points out in an insightful essay in the Washington Quarterly, this was a Western fantasy. Kemal Ataturk's hypersecular republic, allied to the United States and Israel, was never going to move the hearts of Muslims.

 

The AK Party has changed even that. By softening the edges of Turkey's secularism, by emphasizing clean government, by reaching out to the Middle East, it is becoming a more approachable model for Muslims. But to build this image it must be able to do things that reflect the concerns of the Muslim masses, not the elites.

 

That might include laws that reflect the deep concern in every Muslim country that as they modernize, they will become permissive and licentious. This concern is not uniquely Islamic. Every conservative movement and party in the Western world has worried deeply about this for the past 200 years.

 

In the end the European Union decision will not be about Turkey's performance, which has been better than anyone could have hoped. It will be made by a Europe that is either confident or scared of the future. The former would see that Turkey could help solve its labor shortages, help with its problems assimilating Muslim populations and send a powerful signal across the world. The latter is best symbolized by the leader of the German conservatives, Angela Merkl, a bitter opponent of Turkish membership who acknowledged these positive effects but said recently, "I look inward." Alas, there are too many European leaders today who look only inward.

 

comments@fareedzakaria.com

[Boghos]

This week´s Economist has an editorial and a number of articles on why Turkey should be accepted. Whatever.

[THOTH]

This week´s Economist has an editorial and a number of articles on why Turkey should be accepted. Whatever.

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Perhaps Turkey is putting its propaganda machine into high gear? ...no doubt...

 

So how do you feel about the possibility of eventual integration of Turkey into the EU - if all requirements are basically met (not just lip serviced) - do you support the idea - or not? Ultimatly I think it is a good thing...

[Stormig]

I think it's a laugh.

[THOTH]

I think it's a laugh.

 

 

...but its really a cry?

[Stormig]

No, I'm pretty sure it's a laugh.

[THOTH]

Pink Floyd

 

Pigs (Three different ones)

 

Big man, pig man, ha ha, charade you are

You well heeled big wheel, ha ha, charade you are

And when your hand is on your heart

You're nearly a good laugh

Almost a joker

With your head down in the pig bin

Saying "keep on digging"

Pig stain on your fat chin

What do you hope to find?

When you're down in the pig mine

You're nearly a laugh

You're nearly a laugh

But you're really a cry.

 

Bus stop rat bag, ha ha, charade you are

You ***ed up old hag, ha ha, charade you are

You radiate cold shafts of broken glass

You're nearly a good laugh

Almost worth a quick grin

You like the feel of steel

You're hot stuff with a hat pin

And good fun with a hand gun

You're nearly a laugh

You're nearly a laugh

But you're really a cry.

 

Hey you Whitehouse, ha ha, charade you are

You house proud town mouse, ha ha, charade you are

You're trying to keep your feelings off the street

You're nearly a real treat

All tight lips and cold feet

And do you feel abused?

...!...!...!

You gotta stem the evil tide

And keep it all on the inside

Mary you're nearly a treat

Mary you're nearly a treat

But you're really a cry.

[Boghos]

I think it is a big laugh verging on almost non-stop laughing that has serious consequences for your health. Come on the EU already has its quota of clowns and charlatans... Edited September 22, 2004 by Boghos

[DominO123]

I think it is a big laugh verging on almost non-stop laughing that has serious consequences for your health. Come on the EU already has its quota of clowns and charlatans...

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Yeh, beside that, if the EU wanted more clowns and charlatans, it would make George Bushs America as a candidate.

Edited September 22, 2004 by Fadix

[gamavor]

I think there is a difference between American and Western viewpoint. American means Judeo-Anglo-Saxon, while Western means European. I don’t think it is in Europe’s best interest to just grant membership to Turkey, but nevertheless Thoth you have all the rights to dream about it.

One negative side effect that is often overlooked is Turkey’s immense foreign debt. Being a Trojan horse is not a novelty. There is one already in Europe (Great Britain). Most of the money lent to Turkey is from so-called Paris Club and American Financial Institutions. Once Turkey becomes member of EU, indirectly the foreign debt becomes burden for the Union.