Armat Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 God wants us to brush our teeth 3 times a day. And my - he does hate cavities. Cavaties are a sign of the devils influence - and he is bad. I have no cavities I am pure and filled with the spirit of the lord. I will suck on the divine tit in heaven forever while you poor sods - motuhs filled with cavities - you will shovel the deveils shit forever and burn burn burn!. Too bad sucka's! You are sounding really ridicules now. It is obvious you are trying too hard but have nothing to contribute to this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 What discussion? Several people have riduculed my beliefs (or lack thereof) - saying its not possble tobe an atheist or what have you - and postualted variosu believfs of theri own - fine. I say that I can aoncot an equally valid belief set - prove me wrong. That you fail to undestand my "argument" or the point I'm making - well sorry for you...but I am not being ridiculous - nor have i been this entire "discussion" ...I have presented a great many points that you folks are just not even prepared to adresss. Oh gevo says - yes these are easily refuted..and goes on to wax about God again - not even begining to discuss these paradoxxes. And I have presented ample positons that make it clear one cannot coniser atheism a religion - yes anymouse keeps at it. So who is it that is posting here with nothing to say? I guess its alla matter of your perspective...but I am certainly entitled to mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 And let me add - my post about the cavities was in direct response to the mumbo jumbo of belief as proposed by Sasun. And its not that IO am knocking his belief - i mena who really knows...I mean who really knows...but I'd be hard pressed to come up with any proof or real reason to believe any of it - over believeing any other fantasy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 Thoth, keep brushing your teeth and soap your mouth as well... and don't bother to reply to my posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 Thoth, keep brushing your teeth and soap your mouth as well... and don't bother to reply to my posts. Speak for youself. I have every right to post about whatever post I want. Or are you invoking some kind of moderator immunity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 One reason that I am so against Christianity - besides all the contradictions and questioanble prounouncements, utter unbelievability, very poor track record among believers and the church (inquisitin, pedeophile priests etc etc) etc etc and all the rest - is that when one examines so-called Christians - often one finds very little evidence of any real internalizing of the (good stuff from the ) religion. (its all me me me for one thing...) Certainly they don't exhibit Christian virtues in any way shape or form (and I'm talking most folks - not all)....so - just based on an observation of "believers" I am left very unimpressed - and certainly not feeling any real need or desire to be with that crowd. Now don't get me wrong - there are certianly good Christians and Christians who are fine people and what not...its just not a very easy thing to live up to - I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 One reason that I am so against Christianity - besides all the contradictions and questioanble prounouncements, utter unbelievability, very poor track record among believers and the church (inquisitin, pedeophile priests etc etc) etc etc and all the rest - is that when one examines so-called Christians - often one finds very little evidence of any real internalizing of the (good stuff from the ) religion. (its all me me me for one thing...) Certainly they don't exhibit Christian virtues in any way shape or form (and I'm talking most folks - not all)....so - just based on an observation of "believers" I am left very unimpressed - and certainly not feeling any real need or desire to be with that crowd. Now don't get me wrong - there are certianly good Christians and Christians who are fine people and what not...its just not a very easy thing to live up to - I understand. Thoth By all respects nobody here is trying to convert you. You make your choices based on what you need or don’t need. I personally never get offended what any Christian, Muslim etc. says about the particular religion. Remember we are talking things very subjective and it is expected that other people’s beliefs will clash with yours but so what why you get all worked up? Live and let live that’s all. It is silly to take this on personal level and I am sorry that it has come to this. I believe you are a good person and are little pissed now but in the end of the day we are still Armenians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 To All One of the qualities this forum possesses that is, a freedom to speak and express thing in civilized manner, it is very wise to select our words and thoughts before we write them, Thoth, Sasun, Domino as well as Armat has, and always been very valued and respected members of this forum, yours contributions go way back, Thoth you were known as a peacemaker, and don’t loose that position. Perhaps you should make peace within, and I don’t mean this to offend yon anyway shape or form! So that in mind, please, lets refrain our self’s from screaming out laoud about our fillings thords this or that conviction and why not set an example for new comers to this forum. And this if I may, goes both ways, time to sit back and take a good look back see what went wrong, maybe redric here is not connected to this thread, or perhaps maybe I could be wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 (edited) Thank you Edward Now why don't you but out and mind your own business ... j/k Edited January 15, 2004 by THOTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 One reason that I am so against Christianity... is that when one examines so-called Christians - often one finds very little evidence of any real internalizing of the (good stuff from the ) religion. (its all me me me for one thing...) Certainly they don't exhibit Christian virtues in any way shape or form (and I'm talking most folks - not all Dear Thoth, I understand you perfectly. This reason alone is enough for me to be convinced that religion doesn't work. You're right, most religious people lead very selfish lives. It's one thing that every person for himself defines and understands spirituality, it's another to follow something blindly. But I think times have changed and even the very religious people, deep down, know that all this organized religions are nonsense. Who and how is a religious person anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 But I think times have changed and even the very religious people, deep down, know that all this organized religions are nonsense. Who and how is a religious person anyway? I woudl say thats just wrong... The Christian beleif (in christ) is what saves us, and it gets a little weird to understand, but we will sin, and thats because of the devil working in us... BUT, God tells us that we will sin, he tells us that we "shouldnt" sin and ofcourse we are "only" people after all... In the Bible, Jesus told Peter that he will sin 3 times before the rooster crows... so he was allready certain that Peter was goin to sin, and he did, but what did Peter do afterwards, he asked for forgiveness, and he was forgiven because he asked knowing that Jesus loves him and having "fait"{ in Jesus, he was forgiven.. and the story goes on and on.... The point is, we will sin, we have to try as much as we could not too, and if we beleive in Christ, and the bible, we will ask to be forgived and we will be forgiven.. After all thats why Christ died for.. God shed his Sons blood so we can be saved... Now dont say,, "so if i kill someone, i could just ask to be forgived and its all good" if you sin with premeditation, ((especially thinking, ahh.. ill just ask for forgiveness,,, God loves me he'll forgive)).... sorry, God knows your heart, he knows exactly how you think.. I will admit :since its the truth: that there are corrupt churches, there is corruption in the religious system, but if you look at why it is so, you will find that its the thaughts of people and actions of people that leads them astray from the word of God,..... I posted here again cause I see we have come back to civilization... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 God wants us to brush our teeth 3 times a day. And my - he does hate cavities. Cavaties are a sign of the devils influence - and he is bad. I have no cavities I am pure and filled with the spirit of the lord. I will suck on the divine tit in heaven forever while you poor sods - motuhs filled with cavities - you will shovel the deveils shit forever and burn burn burn!. Too bad sucka's! :lol2: :lol2: That was very EVIL but oh so juicy! I had to recollect myself, thanks for a laugh THOTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 I haven't been participating the this, and other, religious threads, simply because at some point, we've said it all. I think, if some of you would bother reading into Thoth's posts - aside the sarcasm, you'd find that he isn't antagonizing anyone. I'm surprised so many of you took offense to his comments. My take is that he was merely pleading ignorance - ie. there may be a god, there may not. It's unproven, and as far as our current technologies, and understanding goes - will continue to be unproven. And really, he's not off-target on this... I think it's possible to have faith in something that remains unproven - and great, all the power to those who choose to have faith. But having faith, and believing in something, doesn't necessarily make it an unrefutable fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 You (and all Christians) say that He has given us free will. That would be fine if everyone was born in this world under the same circumstances. But how fair is it to expect people to act rightously (not kill, rape, etc.) if it is their environment that has forced them to commit these crimes. They don't know any better. They haven't been given the same opportunities like I have been given - a loving family that can nurture and support. I will never kill cold-heartedly because I know the value of life very well. But how do you expect the murderer to know what the value of life is if he was never given the chance? Of course, not everyone under difficult circumstances become criminals. But you know very well that a lot of people born in this world suffer all their lives. I am not discrediting God - it is just that the loving, powerful God does not exist. Now I ask you, the believers of God to please tell me why you think this God exists. PS. Being spiritual is not the same as believing in God. I believe in the existence of a soul. You (and all Christians) say that He has given us free will. That would be fine if everyone was born in this world under the same circumstances. But how fair is it to expect people to act rightously (not kill, rape, etc.) if it is their environment that has forced them to commit these crimes. They don't know any better. They haven't been given the same opportunities like I have been given - a loving family that can nurture and support. I will never kill cold-heartedly because I know the value of life very well. But how do you expect the murderer to know what the value of life is if he was never given the chance? Of course, not everyone under difficult circumstances become criminals. But you know very well that a lot of people born in this world suffer all their lives. I am not discrediting God - it is just that the loving, powerful God does not exist. Now I ask you, the believers of God to please tell me why you think this God exists. You just said it yourself. Everyone has different lives. People are born in different circumstances. It doesn't matter what your circumstance or problem may be, or where you're born, you all make choices and life is about understanding those choices. You have free will. In order for man to be free to do good, he must be free to do evil. We have choices we make, and based on those choices we choose one or the other. Thus one can even take the argument further and state there is an absolute moral law in place, if we recognize things as good and evil, and have a conscience, of course you can feel free to disagree with me on that. This is not a perfect world, for God has not made a perfect world. If there were a perfect world where there was no suffering and evil, then we would have no free will, as there would be no need to. In fact, I have a problem trying to conceive a perfect world in my mind, since it conflicts with the dual nature of things in my mind; good and evil, positive and negative, hot and cold, happy and sad. We are both good and evil, we are a body and a spirit. We have good and evil, and we must choose, and that is the only way we can compare between what is good and what is evil, and what is happiness and what is sadness. Think of all the ideologies and isms and man made systems of thought and dictators and thinkers that have come and gone and promised one form of material utopia or another, and that they were sure they had solved the riddle and offered an answer, a perfect one, and think of how many times it has failed? But like I said, we all have choices we make, and it is your choice to question or not believe in a God or Gods, or whichever. Excelsior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 I think people telling me that they way I or others live my life and such is wrong - based on these beliefs - and that i will got to helletc etc - I find these claims highly offensive. Would that be offensive in the same way that some criminals when convicted of a crime still believe that they are snowy-white innocent, and get offended when they society tells them that what they have done is something wrong? One theoretically (stress that!) good quality of all religions is that they tend to regulate and moderate ordinary peoples behaviour in a positive way. Otherwise they could become, like Thoth, their own little god, capable of doing anything their whim wishes, without any moral limitation to their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 One theoretically (stress that!) good quality of all religions is that they tend to regulate and moderate ordinary peoples behaviour in a positive way. Otherwise they could become, like Thoth, their own little god, capable of doing anything their whim wishes, without any moral limitation to their actions. I forget the name, someone said science offers big solutions to small problems while religion offers small solutions to big problems. Just because the solutions have been small compared to the magnitude of the problems (problems being the dark parts of human nature) doesn't mean religion is bad - just that the broblem is big. And often religious structures themselves are deeply having the same problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 One theoretically (stress that!) good quality of all religions is that they tend to regulate and moderate ordinary peoples behaviour in a positive way. Otherwise they could become, like Thoth, their own little god, capable of doing anything their whim wishes, without any moral limitation to their actions. Agreed absolutely! However, the opposite is very true, either way. Religion might be a powerful and dreadful weapon in the hands of self-obssesed individuals and groups of individuals (turks re:Armenian genocide), Right-wing neocons, schicophrenic rabbies, etc., etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 One theoretically (stress that!) good quality of all religions is that they tend to regulate and moderate ordinary peoples behaviour in a positive way. Otherwise they could become, like Thoth, their own little god, capable of doing anything their whim wishes, without any moral limitation to their actions. One theoretically (stress that!) good quality of all religions is that they tend to regulate and moderate ordinary peoples behaviour in a positive way. Otherwise they could become, like Thoth, their own little god, capable of doing anything their whim wishes, without any moral limitation to their actions. That's what happens when society starts to accept "moral relativism". "My morals are not your morals". "I can kill people and hold them as S&M objects". Indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 I believe God created everything, for something cannot come out of nothing, for this goes into the relationship of causality, cause and effect, in Latin, the phrase "ex nihilo nihil fit" meaning from nothing, nothing can be made. Science has observed this indeed. If X then Y, if program then outcome, if it gets cloudy then it rains, wind causes waves, automobiles move because of an engine. My argument for the basis of God is his creation of the soul, evidence of the soul is our free will, free from all the earthly laws and materials is free. It is, and I doubt many will accept this, the one piece of evidence to me that supports the existence of a soul, in strictly argumentative terms, aside from my own spiritual experiences. Free will is being able to choose my own actions and question, free from other laws or causes. Unlike the laws we exhibit here on earth that take place in the realm of cause and effect we are responsible for our actions in the choices that we make. Free from the causal chains that make up our world, we can initiate causes out of our own will. You want to exercise free will? Intentionally cough, or raise your leg. Anyone can do it. I think I can. "I think, therefore I am", uttered Descartes. Free will is the immaterial basis of oneself, the soul. It is our ability to make choices free from any causes, and rather is in itself a cause. You can do a truth tree to determine of indeed this deductively flows and I have. This is questioned in modern science. Not so long ago, physicists were able to detect the effect of light before its causality. That means that the effect happened before the cause. "ex nihilo nihil fit" is questioned as well, the inflationist theory can explain how from nothing something could be made. It is like creating -2 and 2 from zero, you add them, and you end up with zero. As for cause and effect and free will, your argument is not strong enought here and is subjectif, someone could say that the choices you make are caused by what you are and in the society you live in, and that this free will would be just an effect of those causes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 This is questioned in modern science. Not so long ago, physicists were able to detect the effect of light before its causality. That means that the effect happened before the cause. "ex nihilo nihil fit" is questioned as well, the inflationist theory can explain how from nothing something could be made. It is like creating -2 and 2 from zero, you add them, and you end up with zero. As for cause and effect and free will, your argument is not strong enought here and is subjectif, someone could say that the choices you make are caused by what you are and in the society you live in, and that this free will would be just an effect of those causes. But you see that is the problem. We wouldn't call it free will, nor conceive of it, if all our choices were influenced by society. Surely my will to move my arm was not something influenced by society? That was the epistemological error that Marx committed in the Communist Manifesto. He stated that all our thinking and thoughts are a product of our class. This conflicts with free will. He assumes that all workers will think alike and that everyone will have the same interests in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Of course we have free will...and it is entirly free of any imposition form any outside divine entity. I find this whole concept of free will and sin to be highly circular. As the Christian god encompases both the good and evil - by both definition and decree - what real dilema (besides self preservation...again the fear argument...if God be true...)is it to act in a manner to be "saved" when it is only a means of coercion by an impetous alien entitiy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted January 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Very good Thoth! This has been my point all along except I didn't know how to express it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted January 18, 2004 Report Share Posted January 18, 2004 Indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 OK guys.. i have been reading some into this.. to understand why.. here it is.. i wont post anything long.. yet ill pose a question ... The "religion" of athiesm, which yes ironically is a religion, has been cornered into a dark and lonely corner. One that only ends in diseray. This is said because, one is the loneliest in life when one hates. Not just any hate, this is hate of the devine, hate of the good in life, hate of what has not ever in its completeness been for anything but good and love. Athiests hate God, because of this they are athiests.. this feeling is inevitable for an athiest, because when asked why, the answer ends with the simple conclusion that, "what has he done for me" or some other question such as "Why didnt he ...etc..." And whats even worse about this is that they (athiests) must first realize God exists, in order to be able to not beleive in God "not god, or gods, but God, as depicted in the Holy Bible" one must fully understand what they are denying. Misinformation, lies, experiances (unpleasant ones) and such events have led athiests to Hate God, which is why they are athiests.. and no athiest has ever come up with an example or a theory of who we are, and what we are. The religion of athiesm revolves around hating God. If God were to not exist, then athiests such as Micheal Nudaw would not be spending their lives trying to ban biblical terms from public places, let it be insignia, or chanted phrases. Here is the question.. Why is it that athiests hate God, or if you even beleive this "observation" is possible, or true. Please let us not make this thread turn into a list of insults. thanks.. looking forward to replies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 atheist unbeliever in God or deities: somebody who does not believe in God or deities How did you make the jump from "not believing" to "hating"? After all, how can someone hate something that doesn't (or that person believes doesn't) exist ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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