gevo27 Posted April 2, 2004 Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 Because they do what a believer in God is supposed to do. Such people think that they don't believe in God but in reality they do believe by their actions and by the way they live. Very often what they don't believe is a dogmatic and limited "God" that has been imposed on them by religious groups and authorities or by the society. sasun, before i ask my main question, what do you base this on.? the Bible>? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted April 2, 2004 Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 OK guys,, let us see a view of a non "forumer" so whatever argumentative reasons we have against eachother is not fixed in our descussion.. here is an interesting reading i found, yet i cannot say i totaaly agree with it... but nonetheless it adresses important aspects in a pretty non-bias manner.. its main point is in essence how atheism is really not a religion.. and he asks a simple question.. CAN YOU SAY I BELEIVE IN A DIETY/GOD/SUPREME BEING? And the results are obvious.. he claims if not, then your an atheist... so read and lets see our thoughtts on it CLICK HERE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gevo27 Posted April 2, 2004 Report Share Posted April 2, 2004 AND ofcourse a view of the other extrem (and i mean extreme) but very concrete from the bible... here it is THE OTHER EXTREME thats my last post for a while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted April 3, 2004 Report Share Posted April 3, 2004 sasun, before i ask my main question, what do you base this on.? the Bible>? Not just the Bible Gevo, its an overall belief I have come to realize based on many things. Take it as my personal belief that you don't agree if you will but I don't want to get into a theological debate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted April 5, 2004 Report Share Posted April 5, 2004 And whats even worse about this is that they (athiests) must first realize God exists, in order to be able to not beleive in God "not god, or gods, but God, as depicted in the Holy Bible" one must fully understand what they are denying. Misinformation, lies, experiances (unpleasant ones) and such events have led athiests to Hate God, which is why they are athiests.. and no athiest has ever come up with an example or a theory of who we are, and what we are. The religion of athiesm revolves around hating God. If God were to not exist, then athiests such as Micheal Nudaw would not be spending their lives trying to ban biblical terms from public places, let it be insignia, or chanted phrases. Here is the question.. Why is it that athiests hate God, or if you even beleive this "observation" is possible, or true. Please let us not make this thread turn into a list of insults. thanks.. looking forward to replies What can I say, I agree with Edward's eleventh commandment, and the forum has gone to seed with same old, same old about virginity, atheism, etc. First of all, who said anything about hate? I speak for myself but I can also say that from my observation, a lot of atheists like myself would rather all religions had that eleventh commandment (and according to differing interpretations, a lot of them do preach something to that effect), for we do despise religious zealots and proselytisers, not because they are against us but because they are also against others unlike themselves. True enough, I think we also have contempt, but we have contempt for the ways in which some people make themselves look at things from a narrower perspective, much like you have reactionaries holding onto old ways and what not - but not the people or the collective in the whole. But that has nothing to do with hate. Of course, I am talking about the atheist with some figment of intellect here (nothing elitist). A lot of us come to a certain point in our lives where we require proof to believe in something rather than taking everything for granted, something other than a book or a hierarchy of priests and stories and mob psychology of crowding in a temple to pray, just like coming of age and being able to accept that Santa Claus is a story to bridle young children into behaving. If the proof is not there, we're not satisfied and we won't lose sleep over it. It is not about getting to know some god first, it is about questioning whether what was told all along our younger days was true. It is about accepting the fact that if you are born into a Christian family, you will likely be raised and will remain Christian - Muslim, Muslim - Zoroastrian, Zoroastrian - etc. NONE of this (being Muslim, Christian, Zoroastrian, or other because of the family you were born into) has ANYTHING to do with TRUTH. Moreover, is believing in a religion good? We're not worse people than most others. Most of us wouldn't think of a reason why people should think less of ourselves for not adhering to a religion. But, guess what, a lot of people that do adhere to religions do, so much so that they can run along and make shallow claims about atheists being haters because they won't deem it worth being given a moment's ponder. And we also don't like people who are lazy with thinking, something we got past in our teens (regardless of the religious consequences), that's fer sure. Asking why religious terms would be banned from public is ludicrous, all the more so when comes the claim that it is because that entity is existent. This is about secularity (and I understand although not necessarily support removing some obscene and rather graphic "religious" terms such as "virginity," "sodomy," and others I can't think off the top of my head now), whereas Armenian Christianity removed and, where that was not altogether quite possible, suppressed paganism. Does that mean that the deities of Armenian paganism, Zoroastrianism, etc., were "true"? Sites of temples were converted into churches, and to this day a lot of traditional practices and rituals, all of which have value in the eyes of the anthropologist and the like, are being tried to be discouraged. What have you to say about that? Again, who is being hateful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Knowledge is the sun, belief is the man. It is hardwired into the homo sapien soul. You cannot avoid it, but only seek it, one way or another. Ergo, atheism means nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 this is just a personal interpretation- when i think of atheism i think of emptinesss and confusion.... because in my view, if you dont believe in anything, then how were you put her on earth? why? these are all questions that many inquiring minds such as hume, descartes, and so forth have pondered throughout history... for one to say that they are an atheist is for one to say that they dont believe that their own exoistence... IMO... for in philosophy it is easier to try to disprove/reject something than to prove it...and i see atheism as a rejction of religion and the easy way out- in terms of spirituality- when you dont believe in anything at all...your life becomes pointless... a belief system is not only- "ohh i believe in blah blah blah and so and so- this person that messiah" but a set of ethical boundaries and belief systems aand so forth.... for one to be an atheist- i think- it would also mean that that person is also rejecting the ethics and moral values involved in religion... of course we as humans are always loooking for answers and trying to prove things to make us feel more knowleeedgeable and for us to know about ourselves and the environment- because we naturally do not like to be left in the dark and do not like to be clueless... but there are things which do not have proof and eexplanation- for which ffaith and hope now come in to play a huge role-- religion- as i see it as an individual- gives me something to have faith in- be optimistic and to be sure of- not due to science or facts- but because i choose to believe in it- and i choose to keep it in me --a reason to go on- to sum up your own existene... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Angel - don't assume that I (or other Atheists) believe in nothing....just not in a diety...singular, plural or what have you. And I alos do not believe that the ethics and moral values came from any particualr religion - quite the opposite in fact...and while I understand the need for people to be reassured when they do not know the answers - i fail to see how believeing in somethign that one cannot know to be true as sufficient for reassurance..and is this all that it is - the need for an explanation - and you (and other believers) are so easily satisfied by just anything - regardless of its real representation of reality...and you pity and fail to understand Atheists - HA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 just as you dont want to be generalized in to a specific group- id like you to step back and see what you are implying here- i can care less what implications you make, because i know that they do not describe me, because you have no idea who i am or what i believe... but its just interesting to see that i wasnt aiming my post towards you or any atheist- but rather shareing what i thought and what opinions i held- there need be no argumentation- because i am not stating these as facts, but rather opinions- so please before you begin to nitpick my posts- reconsider my intentions then do so...because gee golly- when im writing a post- im not sitting here thinking-- "oh wow i think today i will try to make thoth lokoo like an ass cause hes an atheist" im only shareing opinions about the topic.... have a nice day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Angel - did you actually read my post - or is it that you just can't understand? You speculate what an Atheist must think (without understanding much it seems) - and I counter - as I see things quite differently - so why so personal eh? And please consider who looks like an ass here. Yeah I'm sharing my opinions to.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Angel - don't assume that I (or other Atheists) believe in nothing....just not in a diety...singular, plural or what have you. And I alos do not believe that the ethics and moral values came from any particualr religion - quite the opposite in fact...and while I understand the need for people to be reassured when they do not know the answers - i fail to see how believeing in somethign that one cannot know to be true as sufficient for reassurance..and is this all that it is - the need for an explanation - and you (and other believers) are so easily satisfied by just anything - regardless of its real representation of reality...and you pity and fail to understand Atheists - HA! That was a beautiful description of the theory of evolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 NOT! - OK here we go again Adamantium for brains... (since you obviously failed to read the first time..) - Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981: "Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. ... There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination." Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986: "...in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." Theodosius Dobzhansky "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution": (http://www.2think.org/dobzhansky.shtml) "...evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun." And yes please check here - http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ "... there are many reasons why you might not understand [an explanation of a scientific theory] ... Finally, there is this possibility: after I tell you something, you just can't believe it. You can't accept it. You don't like it. A little screen comes down and you don't listen anymore. I'm going to describe to you how Nature is - and if you don't like it, that's going to get in the way of your understanding it. It's a problem that [scientists] have learned to deal with: They've learned to realize that whether they like a theory or they don't like a theory is not the essential question. Rather, it is whether or not the theory gives predictions that agree with experiment. It is not a question of whether a theory is philosophically delightful, or easy to understand, or perfectly reasonable from the point of view of common sense. [A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd. I'm going to have fun telling you about this absurdity, because I find it delightful. Please don't turn yourself off because you can't believe Nature is so strange. Just hear me all out, and I hope you'll be as delighted as I am when we're through. " - Richard P. Feynman (1918-1988), from the introductory lecture on quantum mechanics reproduced in QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter (Feynman 1985). Here is a good one (and from a Christian site no less!) Various U.S. court decisions have concluded that "creation science" is not actually science. This is because the beliefs of creation scientists cannot be falsified. i.e. it would be impossible for a creation scientist to accept a proof that naturalistic or theistic evolution is true. That is because their fundamental, foundational belief is that the Book of Genesis is inerrant. All physical evidence is judged by comparing it to Genesis. No evidence from nature can disprove this belief. Once a person accepts a religious text as the basis of their scientific studies, they no longer are free to follow where the data leads; they cease being a scientist. http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_over.htm Oh and at the very bottom of the page: Only 0.15% of earth and life scientists subscribe to one of the creation science belief systems. LOL http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/2948/gould.html http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 ahh theres no cure for the common ignorance....and stubornness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 a basic psuchological concept- when people feel that their knowledge is being questioned or their lil self-centerednesss threathened- they retreat to calling names and all sorts of good stuff that makes me sit back in my chair and let out a great big laugh!! thanx for the laughs thoth...u never cease to suprise me with your responses.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anonymouse Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Simply copying and pasting quotes of leading evolutionists to make a case, is itself the hallmark of a belief. Nevermind that the same atheists that rely on evidence for "God", are reluctant to submit the theory of evolution to the same criteria. How is evolution "fact"? Well, we can take this to the evolution thread, since I don't want to go any further into this with the self-styled God of wisdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 hey there are also some schizoid atheists who actually do use the word 'god' in their daily conversations!!! i kidd you not!! 'god forbid this or that happen..'---they say it sooo casually yet when one word of faith or belief is uttered or even hinted at they act all "smart" and call the believers 'stupid'....yeah! let's see how "smart" they feel when they meet their maker after their time on earth has expired...or as they're lying on their deathbed wishing for forgiveness mercy and peace...let's see science deliver that!!! sure, science and medicine have progressed so much as to prolong our lives and increase the quality of life (sometimes) but what is the guiding hand behind that advancement? what is the guiding force behind the intellignce and the research and the money? what is univeral consciousness? well i guess it all must come from thin air! yeah!! they believe that things just spring out of nowhere and then have the nerve to call the believers 'dumb'...we'll all find out in the end for ourselves each and everyone as our time is up on earth i can only imagine the guilt and the sorrow and the shame they will have to endure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted April 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 a basic psuchological concept- when people feel that their knowledge is being questioned or their lil self-centerednesss threathened- they retreat to calling names and all sorts of good stuff that makes me sit back in my chair and let out a great big laugh!! thanx for the laughs thoth...u never cease to suprise me with your responses.... Angel, I'm sorry to point this out but it's so obvious that you're describing yourself here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted April 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 we'll all find out in the end for ourselves each and everyone as our time is up on earth i can only imagine the guilt and the sorrow and the shame they will have to endure... Well Bruin, if God is good and fair and loving then I’ll just be happy to know that He actually does exist. Why would I feel guilt and sorrow and shame? Why would you want to believe in a God that could punish and make you ashamed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 ...we'll all find out in the end for ourselves each and everyone as our time is up on earth i can only imagine the guilt and the sorrow and the shame they will have to endure... Well ... either that or they'll just be dead and everything will be over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 this is just a personal interpretation- when i think of atheism i think of emptinesss and confusion.... because in my view, if you dont believe in anything, then how were you put her on earth? why? these are all questions that many inquiring minds such as hume, descartes, and so forth have pondered throughout history... for one to say that they are an atheist is for one to say that they dont believe that their own exoistence... IMO... for in philosophy it is easier to try to disprove/reject something than to prove it...and i see atheism as a rejction of religion and the easy way out- in terms of spirituality- when you dont believe in anything at all...your life becomes pointless... a belief system is not only- "ohh i believe in blah blah blah and so and so- this person that messiah" but a set of ethical boundaries and belief systems aand so forth.... for one to be an atheist- i think- it would also mean that that person is also rejecting the ethics and moral values involved in religion... of course we as humans are always loooking for answers and trying to prove things to make us feel more knowleeedgeable and for us to know about ourselves and the environment- because we naturally do not like to be left in the dark and do not like to be clueless... but there are things which do not have proof and eexplanation- for which ffaith and hope now come in to play a huge role-- religion- as i see it as an individual- gives me something to have faith in- be optimistic and to be sure of- not due to science or facts- but because i choose to believe in it- and i choose to keep it in me --a reason to go on- to sum up your own existene... To say that rejection of religion is an easy choice for most individuals is a fallacy, and this is the case especially when they are younger. In fact, "the easy way out" is NOT questioning things and just sitting there and nodding and accepting what people tell you or you read from some book (if I had the time, I could write better), instead of asking why you aren't Buddhist or Hindu or Zoroastrian or whether it would make a difference at all. I maintain that a person can be who they want to be and what they are destined to be without having to lean on a crook. Throw that damn thing away! Life does not become pointless for an atheist, though maybe a believer might fear this to be the case with themselves if they let go of religion if their life is pointless to begin with. I am more hard-working, more productive, less hedonistic (not that there's anything wrong with being hedonistic, it's just that I wish to tell that for an atheist, not being hedonistic is an option as well) than a lot of "secure" believers I know and I am not having any crises about it anytime soon. And what BS about rejecting moral values and ethics. I had to take an ethics course, I scored great in it in all the assignments because of my logic and the variety of scenarios I drew up, no problem, piece of cake, and it had nothing to do with the amount of time given for the assignment or about cheating/copying off others. An atheist knows they don't need religion to have moral values and ethics. It's because I know that if everyone behaves immorally and unethically, the place would stink up and that for my rights and freedom I can and should be able to rely on laws and for my happiness on those around me but mostly on myself, rather than counting how many sins I have committed and whether my prayers are enough to get me a ticket out of hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 hey there are also some schizoid atheists who actually do use the word 'god' in their daily conversations!!! i kidd you not!! 'god forbid this or that happen..'---they say it sooo casually yet when one word of faith or belief is uttered or even hinted at they act all "smart" and call the believers 'stupid'....yeah! let's see how "smart" they feel when they meet their maker after their time on earth has expired...or as they're lying on their deathbed wishing for forgiveness mercy and peace...let's see science deliver that!!! sure, science and medicine have progressed so much as to prolong our lives and increase the quality of life (sometimes) but what is the guiding hand behind that advancement? what is the guiding force behind the intellignce and the research and the money? what is univeral consciousness? well i guess it all must come from thin air! yeah!! they believe that things just spring out of nowhere and then have the nerve to call the believers 'dumb'...we'll all find out in the end for ourselves each and everyone as our time is up on earth i can only imagine the guilt and the sorrow and the shame they will have to endure... My word, yes, I should have discarded "god" out of my vernacular, a habit of at least a dozen years, the moment I "professed" atheism. Yes, I should feel very ashamed of myself (when so-called believers who 1) behave in ways which in any of the books of the monotheistic religions would have the women branded in not very pleasant adjectives and nouns and who 2) tell us that Valentine's Day is commercialised whereas Christmas is not [as it is the birthday of the "saviour"] - - - should feel all nice and smug about themselves for their sincerity in their faith). What a laugh, what a laugh. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Well ... either that or they'll just be dead and everything will be over. we know where you stand, just stay in that nebulous dimension of existence, it doesn't affect anyone else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyebruin Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Well Bruin, if God is good and fair and loving then I’ll just be happy to know that He actually does exist. Why would I feel guilt and sorrow and shame? Why would you want to believe in a God that could punish and make you ashamed? okkk!!! totally misread my post there! and i don't think you got the point at all; when did i mention 'punishment'? it's scary how instead of reading and analyzing objectively people spin tales in their heads!! <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 (edited) Well ... either that or they'll just be dead and everything will be over. Or they will never realise their death because they will always continue their life through other realities where the possibility of their non-death exist, and since you can only be aware of the possibilities that you are still alive, they will never realise that in another universe they died. It is a little ironic that one character here "accuse" another of copypasting stuff to make his cases, when that same character is known to be the king of copypasting. The question here is not whatever or not evolution is the truth, the question here is, what is the explanation to explain the observations... the answer is evolution, to replace evolution one ought to find a better hypotheses which will answer more questions and explain better the observations. There is NONE!!! This is not a question of pro and anti evolutionist, this is a question of whatever or not one refuse to accept something common sense tell us. Common sense as a social construct could be erronous and fool us, but common sense did its "proof" to be a good tool, while Anonian logic is self-contradictory in itself. Now, for the one that reject evolution, that person must find a better explanation to explain our observations... that person must explain how come in our DNA there is traces of our monocellular encestory etc... if that same person reject science(which is not wrong if he or she bring a reasonate other vision of our universe), he must construct another tool to replace science, and use that tool to support his/her point. The tool should be logical. Untill this is done, Evolution has no other alternative... it is not because belief could influence reality that the universe should be chaotic and that each belief are equal... Edited April 9, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExtraHye Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 The two atheism threads have been combined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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