Atheism

[Anoushik]

I have merely observed throuhgout my short life that most if not all people who are atheists have had a "bad" time with God preciously.. as in.. unanswered prayers..< << which is like the leading cause of "hating" God>> so thats why i am trying to make the distinction of the relation of Hating God, and Atheism.. it makes sense..

Gevo, I haven't had a "bad" time with God. If he truly existed I would be so grateful to him. I think these people that you're talking about - that have had a "bad" time with God and now out of anger claim to be atheists - I think they are just confused individuals and have no idea what they are talking about. I don't believe that they are atheists, since then they wouldn't blame anyone or hate anyone, since they would know that such a being does not exist.

[Anoushik]

The same goes with God. People who have seen God cannot prove to people who have never seen God. We were all born blind but some rare people have been able to transcend the blindness and attain vision. Such people are Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Rama, Chaitanya, Ramakrishna,

Vivekananda, etc. They all attest that God is good and great and loves us. These people have vision, while we ordinary people don't have. Believers in God take their words with trust and faith, while atheists (and agnostics) do not trust their words, or the words of those of us who have no vision but have faith. That is the difference between atheists and believers.

What is God?

 

Sasun, you really believe that there is such a being called God that is good and great and loves us? What for does he love us? And what do you gain by believing in that? (I mean what kind of satisfaction do you get other than being saved from hell and living in heaven thing.)

[gurgen]

Anoush, you have to understand that for a lot of us God is symbolic. It's not a big hand in the sky with a booming voice or not even something material, it's the whole concept of love and belief in something.

At least that's what it's about for me.

[DominO123]

Edit: Domino, I forgot to add that atheism is not a religion. Atheists are just ordinary people that the only thing they have in common is that they don't believe in God. How is atheism a religion. There is no belief. By your logic communism would be more of a religion then atheism.

Atheism is a belief that concerns gods... it is the belief of the non-existance of a god, if Buddhism and other religions that do not really believe in a god are religions so as atheism that is the belief of the non-existance of a god.

 

Atheism in itself can be as anti-scientific as theism... real scientists and resonate people leave the door open to any possible hypotheses... being atheist is closing many doors, exactly the way a theist will do when he/she close many doors.

 

I laugh everytime I see an atheist angry because his/her system of belief is called a religion. But think about it, the moment you believe in something that concerns gods, what would be the difference if the belief concerns their non-existance rather than their existance? It still is a belief that concers gods. No?

[THOTH]

From Websters:

 

Main Entry: re·li·gion

Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS

4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

- re·li·gion·less adjective

 

Now - how is being an atheist to "practice", commit or observe some supernatural belief? - etc etc How is it an institutionalized system...how is such a belief observed? What are the rituals for such? Where are the common elements? how can it even be defiend as a system of beliefs - as it professes only the lack of belief in something else which is postulated. Again - you are attempting to define and catagorize something which does not fit. As any profession of disbelief in something could be considered a religion based on the defination you are attempting to proscribe. What is this "faith" of atheism? It is in fact the opposite - profession that faith alone is insufficient and a skeptisim that any explanation offered by man (outside of know/accepted sceintific priciple) is sufficient for belief in something that is unknown. And by your defintion professing adherence to scientific principles and explanations is an equal act of faith as compared to "other" religions...if this is so (if this is yoru belief - your "religion" - lol) - then what leg have to to stand on when arguinmg against Mouse and others who reject scientific understanding - what makes your "belief" any better - any more worthy of being an explanation for the truth of things? You often accuse me of not being consistent - well yoru argument - attempt at such - regarding atheism - and your position - is at odds with your proffesed belief in scientific understanding and explanations. You cannot have both.

 

 

 

Main Entry: 1faith

Pronunciation: 'fAth

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/

Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions

2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

 

 

Main Entry: be·lief

Pronunciation: b&-'lEf

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelEafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lEafa; akin to Old English lyfan

1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

synonyms BELIEF, FAITH, CREDENCE, CREDIT mean assent to the truth of something offered for acceptance. BELIEF may or may not imply certitude in the believer <my belief that I had caught all the errors>. FAITH almost always implies certitude even where there is no evidence or proof <an unshakable faith in God>. CREDENCE suggests intellectual assent without implying anything about grounds for assent <a theory now given credence by scientists>. CREDIT may imply assent on grounds other than direct proof <gave full credit to the statement of a reputable witness>.

 

Main Entry: sci·ence

Pronunciation: 'sI-&n(t)s

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin scientia, from scient-, sciens having knowledge, from present participle of scire to know; probably akin to Sanskrit chyati he cuts off, Latin scindere to split -- more at SHED

1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding

2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study <the science of theology> b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge <have it down to a science>

3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena

 

Main Entry: scientific method

Function: noun

: principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses

 

 

Main Entry: 1re·li·gious

Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&s

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French religieus, from Latin religiosus, from religio

1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>

2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances

3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful

 

Funny I don't see atheism on this list -

 

http://web.ask.com/redir?bpg=http%3a%2f%2f...ml&qte=0&o=8001

 

 

And this is what I came up with when I "asked Jeeves" if Atheisim is a religion - please read..

 

http://web.ask.com/redir?bpg=http%3a%2f%2f...tm&qte=0&o=8001

[THOTH]

Atheism in itself can be as anti-scientific as theism... real scientists and resonate people leave the door open to any possible hypotheses... being atheist is closing many doors, exactly the way a theist will do when he/she close many doors.

One can hypothise anything...like the Pink Pony for instance. Real scientists don't deal with absurdaties.

[THOTH]

It still is a belief that concers gods. No?

Not sufficient to be considered a religion.

 

Of course you subscibe to the ever expanding multiple- disbelief set of religions which have perpetuated the multiverse these days. By last count I was an adherent to 2.796 of these..and growing...isnt it funny how we are all adherents to som maany (non) religions...no wonder we have no time for anything else...hold it for a minute if you please...I have another set of bylaws to draft up - to make sure that my new religion of one is self consistant...

[Sasun]

Sasun, you really believe that there is such a being called God that is good and great and loves us?

Yes

 

What for does he love us?

 

Because we are His children. God loves us more than we love ourselves.

 

And what do you gain by believing in that? (I mean what kind of satisfaction do you get other than being saved from hell and living in heaven thing.)

 

Why should there be gain in our actions? I am not motivated by going to heaven or avoiding hell. Even atheists who live a normal life, who are not evil minded and are kind and compassionate go to heaven.

As for me personally, nothing else gives me lasting satisfaction than spirituality. Other things give me little or no satisfaction. To me spirituality is the only right thing. If you feel that you are doing the right thing that gives you utmost satisfaction.

[gevo27]

Even atheists who live a normal life, who are not evil minded and are kind and compassionate go to heaven.

Sasun, why/how do u say this?

 

 

And anoushik jan, yes i also beleive that there is a God that loves us, ause we are his creation, not the result oc some bacteria for whatever reason just growing into millions of different types of species.. and even worse, we were nothing until the big bang theory.. HAHAH..

 

well.. I guess the only thing we base our beleif on is the Bible. So. in order to disprrov the existance of God one must succesfully and completely disprove atleast one part of the bible, make it false, make it "wrong" etc... just one part, just one vers.. and do no take it out of context..

[ED]

after over the years I have seen, heard, witnesed to such an arguments (endless, pointless, sensless) I like to propose one more commandment.

 

XI) Thou shell those keep the religion to thyself!!!

[Sasun]

XI) Thou shell those keep the religion to thyself!!!

So Edo starts a new religion

[Sasun]

Sasun, why/how do u say this?

Because they do what a believer in God is supposed to do. Such people think that they don't believe in God but in reality they do believe by their actions and by the way they live. Very often what they don't believe is a dogmatic and limited "God" that has been imposed on them by religious groups and authorities or by the society.

[ED]

So Edo starts a new religion

yes indeed Sasun jan, eveyone has got to belive in somthing so

 

 

 

I belive I'll have a drink

[Sasun]

yes indeed Sasun jan, eveyone has got to belive in somthing so

 

 

 

I belive I'll have a drink

At this hour??? Isn't it like 10 am where you are? I believe that should take you to the Alcoholic's Heaven

[ED]

At this hour??? Isn't it like 10 am where you are? I believe that should take you to the Alcoholic's Heaven

been there done that. not yet Sasun jan aldough have a nice argentinian melbec wine for tonight, I'll remember you in my prayers

[DominO123]

Thoth, atheism enter in the definition here, you are only taking from it what you want.

 

Buddhists does not believe in a God, but still it is considered as a religion.

 

Athiesm is a Faith, it is a Faith on the non-existance of a god, rituals whatever or not present doess not change that fact. Many Christians do not follow the rituals, but still do consider themselves Christians by their belief. Atheism is characterised by the belief of a non-existance, it is a Faith, in the same way as a theist has Faith in the existance of a god.

 

Secondly, please do not use the word skeptocism, because you are not a skeptic, this word has lost its sense with the so-called skeptic organisations. A skeptic will doubt, this is what makes a skeptic a skeptic, you do not doubt, being a skeptic and an atheist at the same time is contradictory. You can not be skeptic if you already made your mind and have a belief and are sure of something(the non-existance of a god).

 

Now comming to science, I disagree with you here Thoth, your comment on my belief shows that you do not understand well what are my beliefs in the first place.

 

Anon equal everything, he supposes that any unimaginable hypotheses could equal those that in science are measured and calculated... in my cases I place some certainties, some fundations that are not relativistic,(the 7 certainties) those can not be interpretated, they are, exist... on Anon cases, there is no fundation, this is where his hypotheses cramble.

 

There is another thing here, from my belief, belief could have an impact on the world, if we look at the interpretation of the universe we could think that anon could be right... afterall if he believe that Earth is not revolving around the Sun, for him Earth does not..., but the difference here between his notion and mine beside that mine contain certainties, is that in my cases I accept the fact that you can not use a tool to measure something it has not been build to measure. It is that if we consider that Earth does not revolve around the Sun, we must find other interpretations on what we observe, we could come with other explanations that will explain what we observe, ... then at the end we will have an absolute different vision of the universe compared to our present interpretations... what I mean is that this change of view, this belief that Earth does not revolve around the Sun will change pratically the entirity of the other notions we have in science(only math will be left untouched).

 

Having said that, I think now it is not hard to explain why anon vision has nothing to do with mine. If anon consider that Earth does not revolve around the Sun, he can not "prove" it by using actual science, he has to write an entirly new "science," while what he does is using scientific materials to support his claims. It is like trying to detect microwaves by using an infrared detector.

 

Is it possible that Earth does not revolve around the Sun? Sure it is, not only it is, but for the believer of such a concept, Earth does not revolve around the Sun. Why have we concluded that Earth revolve around the Sun? Because it is supported by observations and what we call common sense(social construct). And the observations are selective based on what we observe, why we observe etc... But it is a valid explanation that explains a lot of things, so why changing it? To change it, the new theory or interpretation should answer more questions... this is how science work... and my belief is centered on that. I can not say whatever there is something or not, what I can say is that everything is possible. If it were to not be possible, this possibility won't exist so we could even not think about such a possibility.

 

So yes! athiesm is a religion and I think it will be the major obstacle of sciences evolution in the future... in the past it was theism, in the future it will be atheism...

[Anoushik]

such an arguments (endless, pointless, sensless)

Edward is right. These are just pointless arguments. In this case I agree that everyone has their own perspective regarding religion and spirituality.

[DominO123]

Oh and I forgot to say that I made a little correction to the 7 certainties, there are 8 now. Thoughts exist. That would be the last one... maybe there is more... i have to search them.

[Anoushik]

Domino, you keep saying that athiesm is a faith, it's a religion. NO, it's not. Just because by your understanding you feel it is a religion doesn't mean that you're right. Are you religious? It's so easy to misunderstand atheists and make judgements and predictions about how they feel about God. I used to do that with my mom. I couldn't believe how she just didn't believe in God. Now the same way I can't believe how people passionately feel there is a God. It's just absurd to me. Similarly it's absurd when I see religious people define what atheism is! They're talking about something they have no understanding about.

[DominO123]

Domino, you keep saying that athiesm is a faith, it's a religion. NO, it's not. Just because by your understanding you feel it is a religion doesn't mean that you're right. Are you religious? It's so easy to misunderstand atheists and make judgements and predictions about how they feel about God. I used to do that with my mom. I couldn't believe how she just didn't believe in God. Now the same way I can't believe how people passionately feel there is a God. It's just absurd to me. Similarly it's absurd when I see religious people define what atheism is! They're talking about something they have no understanding about.

I am neither a theist, neither an atheist, or both a theist and an atheist.

 

I believe that whatever there is a God or not is a question of accepting a possibility or not... believing something is choosing that possibility among many, when the belief concerns God it becomes a religion.

 

You keep saying me that atheism is not a religion, but still i have yet to see any valid argument which will support such a claim... how would the belief of the non-existance of a god not be a religion, when the believer adhere to a belief that concerns a god.(its non-existance)

Edited April 2, 2004 by Fadix

[Sasun]

These conversations would not be frustrating if people didn't try to convince each other. Say your beliefs and respect the other's beliefs - that's the golden rule Don't try to argue your point and prove the other's belief wrong. Remember Edo's commandment? (perhaps you could also have a drink ).

[DominO123]

These conversations would not be frustrating if people didn't try to convince each other. Say your beliefs and respect the other's beliefs - that's the golden rule Don't try to argue your point and prove the other's belief wrong. Remember Edo's commandment? (perhaps you could also have a drink ).

EXACTLY!!! You see my belief is all about that.

[ED]

Atta boys now its more like it

[Anoushik]

when the belief concerns God it becomes a religion.

So there it is! Finally I understand why you claim atheism is a religion. Well, dear Domino, I say you're wrong. Just because a belief concerns God it doesn't mean that it becomes religious. I won't spent the time pointing out what a religion is since Thoth has done it wonderfully so many times.

Edited April 2, 2004 by anoushik

[DominO123]

So there it is! Finally I understand why you claim atheism is a religion. Well, dear Domino, I say you're wrong. Just because a belief concerns God it doesn't mean that it becomes religious. I won't spent the time pointing out what a religion is since Thoth has done it wonderfully so many times.

Well, the problem is that Thoth posted a definition that could be applied in the cases of atheism. You guys remind me a Muslim I knew that claimed that Islam was not a religion.