Guest DoJudo Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 Anoushik, Armenian music does need something new. Who's going to do it? Khachaturian, Komitas, and Sayat Nova are gone. YOU seem to be in the music industry, so why not start working on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayemyes Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Then why not get over being Armenian? Why not start speaking Turkish? I mean just get over it and ask Turkey or some monkeystan to annex what's left of Armenia. Well, I'm not saying that we should only listen to rabiz music, but what I'm saying is to get over criticizing just the rabiz singers about not being armenian when there are a whole new bunch of ppl, some educated at the State Song Theater, that sing songs that are not any more armenian. Why should we chose them to represent our music and not rabiz singers? You see my point? None of them are armenian anyways, so whats the point of arguing and saying that those people have better armenian music than aram or aida or whoever. I mean yes sometimes it becomes disgusting with rabiz, since singers like Hayko often deliver very poor performances, but, that does not mean rabiz doesn't involve talent. It does and knowing music I can say that Hayko (Romance) can probably not change pitches as easily as Tatoul or Sbidagtsi Hayko. It may not be tasteful to everyone but it is talent, we have to admit it. I don't let my country's history (and I love my country very very much) get into the way of art. Sounds middle eastern, let it be, as long as we can appreciate the classical and traditional music on the side too. If you look at my music library, you would find both extremes. Many albums from Hayko, Romik, Tatoul and albums from Shoushan Petroyan, Srbuhi, Christine, Lilit, Alla. It depends on ppl's taste of course, but we cannot just erase rabiz and simply criticize it non stop. Just enjoy it, because it has potential talent, and is good for easy listening. Also, I wonder why ppl criticize tatoul and not those older fresno or new york style kef bands, such as onnik dinkjian, aravot, etc. when they ding songs literally translated from turkish and don't have a bit of vocal talent. Listen to Bambir or Gor Mkhitaryan. There are several promising Armenian artists out there. Yes they are talented and promising, but Gor Mkhitarian's music is not armenian, sorry. It is rock/alternative/pop call it whatever u want but its not armenian. I personaly don't l ike it even though i admit he is artistic, but for me Aram Asatrian's "Yes Kez Desa" or "Pambak" is more armenian. I know ppl would say how dare u compare Gor to Aram, for me, music is beyond categories and if you're going to define armenian'ness in music, then u gotta let go of categories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted August 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Hayemyes, I don't care whether current Armenian pop music has outside influences or not, be it European, Asian or American. What I do care about is that the Armenian music should not have Turkish, Arabic, Muslim influences. The Turks are just that, Turks. How can we ever allow ourselves to listen to the music of our enemies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted August 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Anoushik, Armenian music does need something new. Who's going to do it? Khachaturian, Komitas, and Sayat Nova are gone. YOU seem to be in the music industry, so why not start working on it? I'm not in the music industry. I'm studying Classical music and the performance of Classical piano in university. But you are right, Armenian music does need something new and this has nothing to do with Khachaturian, Komitas, nor Sayat Nova. Why do people always think that the choice is either between Aram Khachaturian or Aram Asatryan? But if I had enough money I'd like to start a TV program regarding current music in Armenia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayemyes Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Hayemyes, I don't care whether current Armenian pop music has outside influences or not, be it European, Asian or American. What I do care about is that the Armenian music should not have Turkish, Arabic, Muslim influences. The Turks are just that, Turks. How can we ever allow ourselves to listen to the music of our enemies? Ok, I respect your opinion, but I cannot accept to call that music any more armenian than Tatoul's music. I mean let's face it, Turkish music is art after all, as much as arabic or greek music or any music is. I think that no art should be influenced by politics. As long as we can appreciate what our country gives us as pure armenian music, it is not wrong or untasteful to hear rabiz music, except if it is totally mangled by hayko or suro or wtvr. But even iin that case, it is a matter of opinion. I am very tolerant only towards armenian music, but at some extent too much western influence disgusts me (Hayko's new Norits CD) just like too much turkish influence bothers me (Sbidagtsi Hayko's cheap live performances). But I respect any musician whether they are my enemy or not, it's just a matter or "musicsmanship". Personaly, I don't think western music is in any ways clsoe to ours. On the other hand, turkish and azeri music is. I am not talkin about arabic or greek because they are not taht close. But really, turkish music is and often is influenced by Armenian, like Mahsun Kirmizigul's songs (kurdish, turkish, armenian), Sezen Aksu, and many others. Today turkish pop stars westernize their music but they still keep their dance-ish turkish taste to it. Armenian dance songs today are either extremely rabiz 6/8 songs or extremely western songs which cannot be played at parties. I think it is important to find something in between and I believe Aram Asatrian, Olga, Andre, Srbuhi, and AArmenchik have achieved that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 You're way off there buddy. That is not Armenian music. Never was. Never will be. If you like those disgusting and disturbing sounds and consider it art that's your problem but do not label it Armenian. Pure Armenian music is reminiscent to Celtic and Greek folk but not Turkish/Azeri or Arabic. You can find that within the liturgy of the Armenian Orthodox and Apostolic Church. I don't care if it's hayko, suro, boka, gago, jinjil vagho, chaxkal bgo or that lunatic asatryan. It's not Armenian and it's not art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted August 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Hayemyes, I hope you realize that art music is completely different from music for entertainment purposes. I had no idea that Turks do have art music and thus I'm not familiar with their "art" music. But I do know that the music that the Armenian rabiz singers sing is not art music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Pure Armenian music is reminiscent to Celtic and Greek folk but not Turkish/Azeri or Arabic. You can find that within the liturgy of the Armenian Orthodox and Apostolic Church. TK the Indo-European core of Armenian music is in Zourna-Dhol performances not the church music. If you listen to "Yarkhushta" or Mush-Sasun area "Gorani" that's where you hear the IE roots of Armenian music. However, you can't deny the sythezis that happened between Armenian and Arabic melody schemes. The most important figure here is Sayat Nova. He brought Armenian music new level. I would even say that the reason that Jazz is so popular among Armenians is Sayat Nova. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 TK the Indo-European core of Armenian music is in Zourna-Dhol performances not the church music. If you listen to "Yarkhushta" or Mush-Sasun area "Gorani" that's where you hear the IE roots of Armenian music. However, you can't deny the sythezis that happened between Armenian and Arabic melody schemes. The most important figure here is Sayat Nova. He brought Armenian music new level. I would even say that the reason that Jazz is so popular among Armenians is Sayat Nova. In a way yeah but Church liturgy preserved pure medieval Armenian music. Sayat Nova is ok if you look at it only from a historical point of view. His music is in no way shape or form Armenian. It's as much Armenian as houmus or lahmadjoun. Consider the times he lived in and that he was fluent in turkish, Farsi and Georgian. His music was turkish music with Caucasian and Persian touches. In any case, Sayat Nova's work is art and should be valued just like Komitas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 In a way yeah but Church liturgy preserved pure medieval Armenian music. Sayat Nova is ok if you look at it only from a historical point of view. His music is in no way shape or form Armenian. It's as much Armenian as houmus or lahmadjoun. Consider the times he lived in and that he was fluent in turkish, Farsi and Georgian. His music was turkish music with Caucasian and Persian touches. In any case, Sayat Nova's work is art and should be valued just like Komitas. TK Armenian Church liturgy is a synthezis as well: Armenian folk songs and German classic music traditions and system (Komitas studyed in Germany if I am not wrong). Sometimes you can clearly hear Bach and other German influence in Komitas' works. No TK, lahmajoun and houmus are things that Armenians took from others, Sayat Nova is one of the things we gave to our region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 TK Armenian Church liturgy is a synthezis as well: Armenian folk songs and German classic music traditions and system (Komitas studyed in Germany if I am not wrong). Sometimes you can clearly hear Bach and other German influence in Komitas' works. No TK, lahmajoun and houmus are things that Armenians took from others, Sayat Nova is one of the things we gave to our region. A synthesis within a family is an evolution. A synthesis outside the family is a degradation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 A synthesis within a family is an evolution. A synthesis outside the family is a degradation. Arian idea is not about blood, it is about consciousness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayemyes Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Now I remember why I had stopped posting on this forum, but it seems that I just couldn't hold it in seeing all those subjective definitions of rabiz. I said I don't particularly like turkish music, but I just don't find it fair to judge it based on the fact that they are our ennemies. Have you guys heard of Ebru Gundes "Herkes Yarali"? or Ssibel Can "Yarim"? I am not doing publicity for these songs nor thiese singers, but as a music student I find them valuable songs, eventhough I have no iidesa of the lyrics. I just find it a shame that we can't appreciate music like we should and don't even want to consider listening out ppl who thinik differently or express their opinions. We choose rather to be agressive and marginalize them from the armenian community if we can manage to. I don't find it acceptable either to treat Sayat Nova's music as turkish and not armenian, that's just what the azeris and turks want us to say, so it's not ppl who defend rabiz (unlike me) that are doing what turks want, but also ppl sayin things like that, especially armenians. Whatever guys, have ur own world of classical and weestern music, and have fun at ur wedding listening to Gor Mkhitarian's Sasuntsiner or chapters from Anush opera. ium out of this topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 ium out of this topic Realy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Arian idea is not about blood, it is about consciousness. Now you lost me. Only Iranians are Aryans as far as i'm concerned. Nevermind though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Now you lost me. Only Iranians are Aryans as far as i'm concerned. Nevermind though. Well, which family then? Remember, that we Armenians still call each other "Ara" or "Aria". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Now I remember why I had stopped posting on this forum, but it seems that I just couldn't hold it in seeing all those subjective definitions of rabiz. I said I don't particularly like turkish music, but I just don't find it fair to judge it based on the fact that they are our ennemies. Have you guys heard of Ebru Gundes "Herkes Yarali"? or Ssibel Can "Yarim"? I am not doing publicity for these songs nor thiese singers, but as a music student I find them valuable songs, eventhough I have no iidesa of the lyrics. I just find it a shame that we can't appreciate music like we should and don't even want to consider listening out ppl who thinik differently or express their opinions. We choose rather to be agressive and marginalize them from the armenian community if we can manage to. I don't find it acceptable either to treat Sayat Nova's music as turkish and not armenian, that's just what the azeris and turks want us to say, so it's not ppl who defend rabiz (unlike me) that are doing what turks want, but also ppl sayin things like that, especially armenians. Whatever guys, have ur own world of classical and weestern music, and have fun at ur wedding listening to Gor Mkhitarian's Sasuntsiner or chapters from Anush opera. ium out of this topic It's not as much about politics but about preserving your culture, history and values. Your comment about politics or the enemy would have made sense if you were a Croat referring to Serbian music but not in this case. It's ok though. It took the Greeks over a century. Armenians are just starting. So cases like yours are only antural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Well, which family then? Remember, that we Armenians still call each other "Ara" or "Aria". I don't want to go way offtopic so lets not dwell into this. I will pm you tomorrow regarding your question, it's late and I don't want to write an essay now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 13, 2004 Report Share Posted August 13, 2004 Time and again, so-called rabiz as I said earlier is not only an Armenian phenomenon. Most of Eastern Europe is drowned with this crap under different names. Chalga, kiochek, rabiz...I'm telling you if you do not listen the words it is all the same everywhere. This is unfortunately the contemporary pop culture in these countries. It has the same effect as the Country to USA. I thing zurna and dhol are only few of the traditional Armenian instruments which are shared by our neighbours too. When talking about traditional Armenian music what comes to mind is Duduk, naturaly(btw, the very same Armeniazed Galatians in Western Armenian had in their folkloric arsenal bagpipes) and I think Gomidas rather influenced his teachers than vice-verse, since his presentation of the Armenian folkloric tunes to West Europeans was his treasure. In short, listen Bambir. You won't regret a second of their music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 Chalga, kiochek, rabiz... Gamavor, where is it called chalga and kiochek? I mean what countries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 Chalga in Bulgaria, partly Macedonia and Yougoslavia. Kiochek is turkish but understandable everywhere I guess! Just a small sample: http://pop-folk-chalga-music.bulgariancds.com/ This one is Anti-Chalga: http://chalgafun.hit.bg/site/chalgafun.htm This is a Serbian site where you can find.....even Armenian music: http://www.dingdingdingding.com/dir/World/...metnost/Muzika/ Enjoy if you can! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 For more detailed info read this: http://www.travelmag.co.uk/printer_611.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 Zaman, Turkey Aug 15 2004 Armenians Tune into Tarkan, Arabs Sibel Can Turkish songs are quite the rage in Halep, Syria's second largest city. Savt-ul Suleymaniye/The Sound of Suleymaniye is a unique music store that has been selling Turkish music in Halep's Armenian Suleymaniye district since 1976. When compared to the Turkmen districts of Halep, the streets of Suleymaniye are modern and clean. It is as we were walking down these streets that we happened up a music store covered with posters of Turkish singers such as Tarkan, Sibel Can, and Nazan Oncel. Turkmen courier Domino guessed that the owner is Turkmen; so it must be in one of the villages near Kilis. We entered the small store and were greeted by CDs and cassettes stacked to the ceiling. Whatever you could possibly want, the store has. Gülden Karaböcek, Zeki Müren, Emel Sayýn, Ümit Besen, Müslüm Gürses, Candan Erçetin, Tarkan, and Davut Güloðlu to name a few. Arab singers frequent Savt-ul Suleymaniye. Lebanese singer Iyad Sakar reportedly asked the store to send a Serdar Ortac album to Beirut two days ago. Many Arab singers such as Sakar translate the Turkish songs they like into Arabic. The Turkmen owner has an order list in front of him. An Armenian planning to visit his daughter in America ordered 23 Turkish albums. The owner, who enjoys introducing Turkish music to the country, said, "I have lots to do, such as packing these after copying." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurgen Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 An Armenian planning to visit his daughter in America ordered 23 Turkish albums. Pffffff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Pffffff Մեխկ էն, ինչպէս ոչխարներ, որոնք հովիվ չունեն ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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