Sip Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 acegroup ... interesting point but in the case of Armenians, just judging by the ones I have seen recently arriving in LA, I think the Jehovah's Wittnesses were probably the victims here ... they probably still don't know what hit them! You got better God? Sure sure we convert.You give us free bible? Oh sure sure ... we convert right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acegroup Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 You got better God? Sure sure we convert.You give us free bible? Oh sure sure ... we convert right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Azat Jan,If we look at the early 90's when Armenia became independent, it was hard for the people there, especially no water, electricity and basic needs were difficult to meet. The group like the Jehovah's Witnesses who orginization was founded in the USA has money and lots of money. So when the Jehovah's Witnesses sent "missionaires" to Armenia it was very easy for them to get converts. They probibly offered food, water and other basic needs and to took advantage of the Armenians that were oppressed religiously by communism . Also falsely the Jehovah's Wittnesses indirectly claim to be "Christian". Also Azat if you have any questions regarding religion or Genocide a forum is a great place to ask. But that is exactly my point. ANd what I was saying is that in the late 1800s the Protestant missionaries from the USA with money to build schools and churches and such had an easier time to get the Armenians of Anatolia to convert then the Turks thus we have Armenians who are Protestants. Okay I probably should step out of this as my knowledge is very very limited in this topic.(I know that has not stopped me from putting my big nose in other topics that I know little about. ) BTW: acegroup welcome to HyeForum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 (edited) The group like the Jehovah's Witnesses who orginization was founded in the USA has money and lots of money. So when the Jehovah's Witnesses sent "missionaires" to Armenia it was very easy for them to get converts. They probibly offered food, water and other basic needs and to took advantage of the Armenians that were oppressed religiously by communism . Are you saying that Jehovah's Witnesses had more money at their disposal than Etchmiadzin? I have met several converts into Protestantism. I am much impressed by these guys. Each of them would qualify as modern day Apostle. I was especially impressed by one guy from Yerevan - Arshag - who lives in New Jersey, now. If I was looking for spiritual communion, for example, I certainly would not even get close to the Armenian Church. If I want to attend Liturgy, I certainly would go to a Protestant Church. If I want to open my heart to a priest, it certainly would be a Protestant priest rather than Armenian Apostolic. And I get neither money from any of the Protestants or others nor food, etc. There is no God (but only ritual) in the Armenian Church. That’s why people who are in search of God get away from it – as simple as that. Cynicism may be the mantra of some of the younger people these days, but it doesn’t explain why things happen the way they do and it manifests too simplistic a mentality. P.S. How do you explain that the young Amrenian Jehovah's Witnesses go to jail but refuse to serve in the army? Are they doing it becasue they are paid or receive food to prefer jail to army? Edited October 26, 2003 by MJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arad9 Posted October 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 MJ just to clerify things for the people on this forum, do you believe lutherens today are saved based on your faith, what about methodist,what about baptised? i know you believe Gregory, Mesrob Mashtost,Nerses the Gracious were all not christians.Please answer this question for the people in this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 MJ just to clerify things for the people on this forum, do you believe lutherens today are saved based on your faith, what about methodist,what about baptised? i know you believe Gregory, Mesrob Mashtost,Nerses the Gracious were all not christians.Please answer this question for the people in this forum. And who the Hell are you to make requests on behalf of the other members of this forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arad9 Posted October 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 MJMy point is the reason that protestants convert Armenians that are already Christians is because protestants don't consider lusavorchagans to be Christians.most protestants don't even know the defenition of a Christian yet accuse the Lusavorchagans of not being Christians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 (edited) MJMy point is the reason that protestants convert Armenians that are already Christians is because protestants don't consider lusavorchagans to be Christians.most protestants don't even know the defenition of a Christian yet accuse the Lusavorchagans of not being Christians. Well, if your post is characteristic of all "lusavorchagans," then they [Protestants] are absolutely right - you are a bunch of melted residual wax collecting sectants who have done nothing but corrupted the essence of Christianity. Edited October 27, 2003 by MJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 MJMy point is the reason that protestants convert Armenians that are already Christians is because protestants don't consider lusavorchagans to be Christians.most protestants don't even know the defenition of a Christian yet accuse the Lusavorchagans of not being Christians.And, Martin as to your question from long time ago; The Armenian term for Manicheian is "Maniqeiakan".As long as the Armenian Church contends to be the "judge, jury and executioner", acts as if a "state within a state", does not get back to her original mission of retreating to their cloister and masturbate to their hearts' conteni, wondering if we are monophysite ot diphysite, whatever the hell that means, decide; "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin". How much more pinhead(ic) can one be?There will always be Paulicians, Thondrakians, Protestan, Catholics, Jehovah's Wistnesses and other garbage. BTW. You do realize that there still are Paulicians among us. I will explain, but first run a search using the keyword "Boghikian/Boghigian". You will be surprised to learn that the principal spokesperson for thr ARF has a name like Apo Boghikian. Boghikian is a corrupted [istanbulized, Hi! Paulos, Pavghos, Poghos, Boghos )form of Pavghikian, Pavlikian, Paulician, Boghikian]. Yes, There are several dynasties that have that surname, I have met some of them. It may be an attesetmnet that the movement has not yet died. Ther were still Paulicians until the 1900'sYou do realize that there are those of us who would not give erku luma/a fart(h)ing as to who and what Jeeus was, whther He was born of a virgin or a whore, wherher He was the fruit of artificial insemination (did they have that technology then?), it is the message, not the messenger. Shoot the messenger if you must as long as we understand the message. Do we?. PAULICIANShttp://armenians.com/forum/index.php?showt...=20entry45826 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arad9 Posted October 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Well, if your post is characteristic of all "lusavorchagans," then they [Protestants] are absolutely right - you are a bunch of melted residual wax collecting sectants who have done nothing but corrupted the essence of Christianity What about st.Gregory, Mesrob Mashtost,Nerses the Gracious were they Christians?even though they taught faith plus works,infant baptism etc.. There will always be Paulicians, Thondrakians, Protestan, Catholics, Jehovah's Wistnesses and other garbage I'm not complaining about an Armenian Lusavorchagan that becomes Paulicians or any other garbage. My complain is why a reformer?wasn't it reformation of the Catholic Church and not the Lusavorchagan church?Protestants claim that they are reformers, how can you be a reformer of a church that you don't even believe in? That's like a Lusavorchagan trying to reform the Mormon Church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 Wonder if Jesus would have become so big and famous if Judas hadn't done what he done. Jesus would die as a Jew in that case and this entire thread would not exist...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnig Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 In the discussion of who is Christian or not, which I think strays off this thread, one's association to a Church or religious structure is not the validation, which includes their outward religious practices and the like. What makes for a true Christian; one who is saved from eternal hell? It is one who has been inwardly regenerated, a new creature, and in turn has professed Christ as Savior AND Lord by that enabling and so continues a life of obedience to Christ Jesus. The key is the Lord Jesus Christ and the fruit of the Spirit validates the so-called believer's position. How do you validate your Christianity? (question posted to the general public) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xentuk Posted November 6, 2004 Report Share Posted November 6, 2004 (edited) "@ndimutyun@ hin haykakan adat a" from a play Edited November 6, 2004 by Xentuk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 As I set up my Christmas decorations (pagan leftover from Roman Saturnalia) and prepare to go to Christmas services at a Protestant church, Martin's comments come to mind. I have met several converts into Protestantism. I am much impressed by these guys. Each of them would qualify as modern day Apostle. I was especially impressed by one guy from Yerevan - Arshag - who lives in New Jersey, now. If I was looking for spiritual communion, for example, I certainly would not even get close to the Armenian Church. If I want to attend Liturgy, I certainly would go to a Protestant Church. If I want to open my heart to a priest, it certainly would be a Protestant priest rather than Armenian Apostolic. And I get neither money from any of the Protestants or others nor food, etc. There is no God (but only ritual) in the Armenian Church. That’s why people who are in search of God get away from it – as simple as that. Cynicism may be the mantra of some of the younger people these days, but it doesn’t explain why things happen the way they do and it manifests too simplistic a mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 (edited) Arpa, I wonder if you and the family of the late doctor whom you admire had any hand in the recent demise of the financial circumstances of Martin and his lovely wife. The Armenian establishment ruined Ara Baliozian and now has another "notch in its gun." It is no wonder that so many of us have put as much distance as possible between ourselves and the community. Dikran Kouyoumjian's sentiments and those of the secretly part-Armenian Gregory Peck make so much more sense to me now. Edited December 23, 2005 by phantom22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 (edited) why are there Armenian Protestants? Weren't Protestants protesting from the Roman Catholic church? If an Armenian who was never Roman Catholic, and becomes a Protestant, then that makes one confused individual. Why are there "Armenian Protestants"? Read the Forum and see how many "protestations" there are. Not to mention Petros Durian's "Trtunjq/Protestations" where he says; "Ayl ayn Astvtsuyn, ...Shanteru arnat..."! Edited March 3, 2006 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 (edited) why are there Armenian Protestants? Weren't Protestants protesting from the Roman Catholic church? If an Armenian who was never Roman Catholic, and becomes a Protestant, then that makes one confused individual. Why are there “protestants”? When God created man, He first created the Apostolics, then the Catholics and finally the Orthodox. Then he had second thoughts. How about someone to “protest” all of those above? And, He created … Martin Luther; http://www.educ.msu.edu/homepages/laurence...ther/Luther.htm (the symbolic blow that began the Reformation when he nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Church. That document contained an attack on papal abuses and the sale of indulgences by church officials. But Luther himself saw the Reformation as something far more important than a revolt against ecclesiastical abuses. He believed it was a fight for the gospel. Luther even stated that he would have happily yielded every point of dispute to the Pope, if only the Pope had affirmed the gospel. And at the heart of the gospel, in Luther's estimation, was the doctrine of justification by faith--the teaching that Christ's own righteousness is imputed to those who believe, and on that ground alone, they are accepted by God.) Even if the word “protestant” has become a generic term, much like Aspirin and Kleenex, it was originally used as a pejorative term, I.e. those who “protest”. Is that not what Martin Luther meant above? I PROTEST!! If we were to go by the dictionary definition, then every one here in particular, and Armenians in general could be labeled as “protestants”. Yes, MosJan, “protestant” means”poghoqakan/Փողոքական Just look at how many times a year we hold up our placards and we shout… I PROTEST!! Edited July 2, 2006 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantom22 Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 (edited) The Armenian Tondrakians preceeded Luther by approximately 600 years. They attempted to throw off the Roman/Hellenistic heresies which the majority of "Christians" practice today. The Armenian nobles proceeded to exterminate them along with the Paulicians, leaving Armenia's population decimated and therefore welcoming the Turkish hordes to come and fill the vacuum. Why are there “protestants”? When God created man, He first created the Apostolics, then the Catholics and finally the Orthodox. Then he had second thoughts. How about someone to “protest” all of those above? And, He created … Martin Luther; http://www.educ.msu.edu/homepages/laurence...ther/Luther.htm (the symbolic blow that began the Reformation when he nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Church. That document contained an attack on papal abuses and the sale of indulgences by church officials. But Luther himself saw the Reformation as something far more important than a revolt against ecclesiastical abuses. He believed it was a fight for the gospel. Luther even stated that he would have happily yielded every point of dispute to the Pope, if only the Pope had affirmed the gospel. And at the heart of the gospel, in Luther's estimation, was the doctrine of justification by faith--the teaching that Christ's own righteousness is imputed to those who believe, and on that ground alone, they are accepted by God.) Even if the word “protestant” has become a generic term, much like Aspirin and Kleenex, it was originally used as a pejorative term, I.e. those who “protest”. Is that not what Martin Luther meant above? I PROTEST!! If we were to go by the dictionary definition, then every one here in particular, and Armenians in general could be labeled as “protestants”. Yes, MosJan, “protestant” means”poghoqakan/Փողոքական Just look at how many times a year we hold up our placards and we shout… I PROTEST!! Edited July 2, 2006 by phantom22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 The Armenian Tondrakians preceeded Luther by approximately 600 years. They attempted to throw off the Roman/Hellenistic heresies which the majority of "Christians" practice today. The Armenian nobles proceeded to exterminate them along with the Paulicians, leaving Armenia's population decimated and therefore welcoming the Turkish hordes to come and fill the vacuum. The reason why the Seljuk Turks were able to take over Armenia is not because of the Armenians themselves. It's because the expansionist Byzantine Empire invaded Armenia, as Ani was slowly taking Constantinople's status in and around the Caucasus. The war between the Byzantium and Armenia ended with the occupation of Armenia in 1045. Both nations' armies were exhausted, and were thus incapable of defending Armenia and most of Anatolia in 1064 and 1071 respectively. In the end, both nations ended up as being the losers, unfortunately, thanks to the Byzantine empire which didn't cooperate with Armenia, which could have been used as an effective shield against the Seljuks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 (edited) why are there Armenian Protestants? Weren't Protestants protesting from the Roman Catholic church? If an Armenian who was never Roman Catholic, and becomes a Protestant, then that makes one confused individual. You mean to say Armenians have no right to "protest", that we have nothing to "protest" about? WE protested against Persian oppression, we protested against Roman, Arab, Byzantian hegemony, we protested against Ottoman and Russian rule. Why is it agianst the law to protest now!!?? For the record, "protestant" is a pejorative term. The German "protestants" would rather be called "reformists", and the Armenians would rather be known as "avetaranakan/evangelical"** rather than "boghoqakan", whatever difference that may make. ** Not to confuse with those idiots who have hijacked the term to fit their ultra racist KKK agenda. Edited November 14, 2006 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 In most respects Armenians are Armenian Protestants. "Hay Lousavorchagan" in Armenian terms. We have become Christians from Krikor Lousavorich who changed our nation into Christianity, as you most certainly know I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annannimusss Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 None of you be here if it weren't for the Armenian Apostolic Church.It is sad to see you acting in the way you guys do toward our religion and the religion of our forefathers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 (edited) SakoP; I have made a mistake. What I meant to say, Armenian Apostolic not Armenian Protestant. Majority of Armenians are "Lousavorchagan" belonging to the Armenian Apostolic Church, as you already know. Though some minor percentages belong to either Protestant or to Catolicism, not a great percentage. Edited November 15, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 None of you be here if it weren't for the Armenian Apostolic Church.It is sad to see you acting in the way you guys do toward our religion and the religion of our forefathers. None of us would be here either if someone hadn't figured out how to ride a donkey to get around. But just because some people rode donkeys 1000 years ago, that doesn't mean we should keep riding donkeys for the rest of time, till the end of humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 SakoP; Although I am Christian; but not everyone here is. We have to respect each and everyone regardless what belief or denomination they belong to. These guys are really good guys and most of them are very good Armenians too. Whether they are of Christian faith, Buddhist, agnostics, atheists or "grabashd"; it is really important to be a good human being and a person with humanity and humility. Some people say they are Christians, yet they don't practice it and others may say they're atheists yet they are better citizens, friends and neighbours than your next door Christian person sometimes. This may also be true in great many respects. In the final analysis; it is important I believe to respect any human being just because they are a human being and to respect them for what they stand for and regardless their belief and or denomination. Personally, I am Christian yes; but I am also a patriotic Armenian. Therefore any good Armenian is considered by me my blood brother and I love them regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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