Why Are There Armenian Protestants?

[MosJan]

Next sunday WE will have a ritual sacrifice of Arad on the altar of our local Armenian Church. This lamb of God will be slaughtered so that the "Gods" will be pleased. Does this sound like Christian thinking to you??????????

Yes if we get to have some Xashlama after

[Arad9]

America-hye I said nothing of sacrificing people only animals. What's wrong with that? Since in the Old Testament if you didn't sacrifice an animal you could not get saved.

 

I am surprised that you would question, that in order to become Christian one has to be baptized in the Church of Christ. That is the only Church that Christ has established and He has explicitly said that it is His Church. That is [baptism] basically the definition of being a Christian

My problem is you claim only your church is the church of Christ, even Protestants consider the Church of Christ as a cult., also historically the Church of Christ you are talking about never existed until very recently.

As to the definition of the Church, again, I think the Matthew’s 18:20 along with passages similar to the Church being the body of Christ do shed proper light on what Church means

 

By a church I mean priest, altar and historical teachings of the apostles.

 

To finalize, Church means body of Christ where two or three or more people get together in His name. What’s your problem with it?

 

Again you are building on a lie that is not from the bible.

Judas has not betrayed Christ. Quit the contrary, being one of the most devoted Disciples of Christ (along with Peter) he has done what the Lord had commanded to him. If one could trace betrayal in Judas’s actions that would be only the fact of his hanging of himself. But when he pointed Jesus to the Roman solders, he did what Christ had earlier commanded him to do.

Judas betrayed Jesus out of his own free will otherwise he can't be held responsible for his action. Jesus did condemn him.

And if we have to talk about the betrayals, it is the Armenian Church which has betrayed Christ by not obeying one of the Lord's most fundamental commandments to go and make disciples of all nations... How do you do that if you establish "Armenian" Church

The Apostles did go to the nations and Christianized the Armenian nation.

 

MJ the Church of Christ is a cult their faith is a new gospel that was never taught by any historical church.

[Arad9]

mosjan yes shad hamov em

[Sip]

... Judas betrayed Jesus out of his own free will otherwise he can't be held responsible for his action. Jesus did condemn him.

Wonder if Jesus would have become so big and famous if Judas hadn't done what he done.

[America-Hye]

Mosjan,

 

Unfortunately, I will not be able to join in the feast, since I am a strict vegetarian. You KNOW how much I would relish to devour the flesh of a "traditional" Armenian,

[America-Hye]

Arad, There is evidence that Jesus and his followers were strict vegetarians, who rejected the diet proscribed in the Old Testament.

[MosJan]

Mosjan,

 

Unfortunately, I will not be able to join in the feast, since I am a strict vegetarian. You KNOW how much I would relish to devour the flesh of a "traditional" Armenian,

it's ok me and siaphan will need no help

che Siphanjan

 

 

MOvses

[MJ]

Arad,

 

Since I don’t think that you are capable of conducting yourself properly, and since you have a tendency to make pompous statements on subjects that you don’t know enough about or haven’t thought enough yet, I will give you two references as my last word with you:

 

 

Colossians 1:24

 

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

 

 

Ephesians 5:33

 

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

Edited September 15, 2003 by MJ

[MosJan]

mi ktor xashlama eyiq utelu en el kartses dzerqnerits@s gnats

 

Hayi Baxta che

 

 

Ladushki Ladushki

 

 

Siphan ba hima menq inch anenq ???

[Sasun]

... Judas betrayed Jesus out of his own free will otherwise he can't be held responsible for his action. Jesus did condemn him.

Wonder if Jesus would have become so big and famous if Judas hadn't done what he done.

I think so. A lot of people used do be crucified, we don't even know them. I think it would be much better if Jesus was not killed. Its not the fact of crucifiction what makes Christ a Saviour, although it is part and parcel of it.

[Sasun]

America-hye. what's wrong with Animal sacrafice?

Nothing wrong with it, it is just not Christian. You give an animal (which belongs to God) to God. Actually, you don't even give, in the end you eat it, God doesn't eat. So what is the value in that?

 

Actually, there is some value. Although not Christian, a sacrifice means you care about God, no matter how big or little the animal could mean to you (provided you do it soulfully and sincerely rather than out of custom). You have little, and you sacrifice that little for God.

 

In fact, in the ancient Aryan culture sacrifice had a quite different meaning. I suspect what we call "matagh" is the Christianized version of the Aryan sacrifice.

[Arad9]

America-Hye

Jesus was not a vegetarians. by the way do you eat fish?

MJ

Since I don’t think that you are capable of conducting yourself properly, and since you have a tendency to make pompous statements on subjects that you don’t know enough about or haven’t thought enough yet, I will give you two references as my last word with you:

 

 

Colossians 1:24

 

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

 

 

Ephesians 5:33

 

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

 

Proove what you say don't just call names.

colossians 1:24 or Eph5:33 in no way says

Christ has defined the Church as a gathering of three people who speak in His name. Therefore,

If there is one person is God present?

MJ you haven't proove your point and you are building theology on that false statment.

I'm saying The church of Christ that you belong to is a cult.I can proove that it's a cult. Why would you leave the Armenian church for that?

My advice to you get out

[America-Hye]

Arad,

 

I am a VEGAN and a strict one. I do not eat fish, dairy or eggs. I do not even eat honey. When I visited Armenia, the border guards (who were Russians and not Armenians by the way) pulled me aside at customs because they thought that I was an impostor. I look much younger than my chronological age. When I was in Yerevan, when the locals asked me how old I was I lied and told them that I was 10 years younger than my true age, and they still did not believe me.

 

The books of the Bible originally stated bread, not fish. Look beneath the surface please. Do not accept what you have been handed at face value.

[Arad9]

America hye,

There is nothing wrong with being a vegatarian.

The Bible doesn't teach to be a vegaterian, especialy not the way you are keeping it. John the baptist ate only locust and honey, Jesus caught fish,jesus was even the one that provided the ram for Abraham to sacrafice. it's all over the Bible. If you read romans 14:1 "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him."

I have a Chinese employee who looks twenty years younger and he eats things like ducks' feet, eggs that are partialy hatched.

I'm a vegan only during lent, also i don't eat meat on wed and fridays(fish is ok) i don't think it's healthy not to eat meat or drink milk. do you have infants and would you give them milk?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

' 4Who

[Sip]

... jesus was even the one that provided the ram for Abraham to sacrafice.

What? How did that happen? Didn't Abraham's whole sacrifice thing happen waaaaaaaay before even Noah landed in Armenia whose decendents ended up giving birth to Marry who somehow magically gave birth to Jesus?

[Arad9]

Sip

here is a quote from john chapt 8:56-59

Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Jesus is God according to The Armenian church and the Bible.

here is a quote from Philipians chapter 2

6Who, being in very nature[1] God,

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

7but made himself nothing,

taking the very nature[2] of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

8And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself

and became obedient to death--

even death on a cross!

9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place

and gave him the name that is above every name,

10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.

 

BY the way noah was before Abraham.

[axel]

As usual, MJ is twisting everything and using sophisms of all sorts. What is his point? That there be problems inside the Armenian Church as an institution? Who says there aren't? Does this imply we should reject our Faith?

___________________________________________________________________

 

Vartanantz

Excerpts from Sermon Delivered by Fr. Vazken Movsesian

15 February 1998

 

Once again we are given an opportunity to reflect on Vartanantz

- a battle which took place in 451 A.D. Vartan has become a

hero for the Armenian people. He has a special place in the

Armenian soul. One of the first poems that Armenian children

are taught is a couple of verses claiming, "I am the grandchild

of Vartan." It's interesting, because we remember a war that we

have lost and yet we celebrate it. Today, I'd like to share

with you a few ideas about Vartanantz and its importance to us,

not merely as Armenians but as people.

 

Vartan is not just an Armenian hero. He's not only a warrior.

Rather, he's received one of the highest honors of the church,

he is a saint. We refer to him as saint Vartan. In fact, its

because of the Church that Vartan is remembered today. As all

the saints, Vartan too was a human being. He had all the

frailties of a human. He went through all the trials and

tribulations that we go through; however, he was able to rise

to the occasion and leave his mark in this world.

 

Let's go back to the time of the Battle of Vartanantz - to 451.

Christianity had only been accepted for 150 years. The

conversion of Armenia took place at the time of St. Gregory and

King Dirtad in 301. Don't think that Armenians woke up one day

and they were Christians. The conversion process took many

years (in fact, as we see, its still taking place). The Bible

was translated to Armenian in 431. But in this short time the

Light of Christ and had infected the soul and psyche of a vast

number of Armenians. For the first time, their new found faith

was going to be put to the test and they we willing to die

rather than betray their Christian faith.

 

I don't want to get into the details today about Hazgerd, Vasak

and the rest. What is important is that Vartan lead a battle of

the freedom of conscience. Christianity was part and parcel of

their being and the freedom to express themselves essential.

They wanted to express their faith in Christ Jesus in the same

manner that we did today - through the worship, scriptures and

the receiving of the Holy Communion. On the night of the

battle, Catholicos Hovsep and Ghevont the priest the troops in

prayer and they received Holy Communion - the body and blood of

Jesus.

 

The legacy that St. Vartan leaves us is one of self-

determination. We as people, being created in the image of God,

have the right to determine our own future. This characterizes

us human beings. But unfortunately, our psyche as a people has

been so battered that we may not believe this. If you think

about what we teach our children as Armenian history, it's very

negative. We talk about one defeat after another. We talk about

Armenians being killed, tortured, raped, massacred and being

the victims of Genocide. Have you ever asked yourself why

anyone would want to be a member of such a group? This negative

history creep into our collective psyche. We being to see our

selves as some dispensable commodity. We lose hope and we

believe in destiny rather than self-determination.

 

St. Vartan leaves us a legacy of self-determination. Throughout

history we've come to many crossroad, just as we do throughout

our lives. Self-determinations means we have the option to

choose which road we will take. If St. Vartan believed in

destiny, i.e., his fate was written in the stars or in the

grinds of his coffee cup, he would have folded his arms and

kicked back. Why fight? We're going to die anyway? Why buck the

system? Instead he stood up and knew that it was their right to

determine their own future. A person who cannot write his own

future is a slave. He might as well give up on life. But Christ

did not bring slavery. He brought freedom. Through the Church

Vartan understood that freedom. He understood Christ's word's

"I cam that you may have life and have it more abundantly," as

a promise that was already fulfilled.

 

God gives us the tools in life. He gives us intelligence,

talents and most importantly He gives us life. The rest is up

to us. We have the power to make or break life. But with that

power comes responsibility. We are responsible for our actions.

The childish approach is to blame an outside force - "the devil

made me do it!" The mature approach is to take the

responsibility for our actions. In our Church, the sacrament of

Penance is exactly that - taking the responsibility for our

actions.

 

The Battle of Vartanantz is not just a moment in history. It is

not a story or a memory. It is not some nationalistic holiday.

It is a commission. It is a call to action. It is a call to

determine our future and at the same time to take

responsibility for it. In other words, the Battle is not over.

That is what is so special about Vartanantz. It is a battle

which begins in 1500 years ago and its outcome will be

determined today! Vartanantz has not finished.

 

Vartanantz 451 is history. Vartanantz 1998 is reality. We are

the generation who will determine who won the war. As long as

we sit back idle and let the stars determine our destiny… as

long as we see the spiritual decay of our community and say,

"it's meant to be" … as long as we stay away from the Armenian

Church and Her Orthodox Faith… as long as we erect artificial

barriers between the different members of our community… as

long as we remain complacent about our faith and national

aspirations… we have lost! The Persians have won the war. But

every time we take charge of our lives… every time we spread

the love that Christ has taught us… every time we rise to the

occasion to demonstrate the Christian experience… Vartan has

not died in vain. We win the war.

 

Today, take with you the message of action. Whether its your

individual life or the life of the community, nothing will

happen unless you first decide that you need to get involved.

God empowers you to make a difference. Take hold of that power.

Don't abuse it, but at the same time don't let it slip through

your hands.

[America-Hye]

Armenian unity will not come from a narrow perspective, but from a wide one. It seems that I have to repeat over and over again that WE came very close to getting a Genocide Resolution passed in the US Congress in 2000 because WE Armenians worked in unison. Place a Gregorian Armenian on a highrer moral plane than a Catholic or Protestant Armenian, or a Ramgavar higher than a Tashnag or Hunchag or visa versa and you will create division.

[axel]

Place a Gregorian Armenian on a highrer moral plane than a Catholic or Protestant Armenian, or a Ramgavar higher than a Tashnag or Hunchag or visa versa and you will create division.

 

No one has put Gregorian Armenians on a higher moral plane than Catholic or Protestant Armenians. We are not judging individuals here. We may express a critic of protestantism without implying that its followers (who are mistaken) are morally inferior.

 

One should also recall that those Armenians who were converted to catholicism or protestantism are the ones who created division in the first place.

 

The Armenian Apostolic Church is the only place where we may unite as a People.

[America-Hye]

Axel,

 

Your views are not exceedingly clear. Just as I supposed. We come from VERY divergent world-views. We are speaking on different planes, whose tangents will not meet. I have experienced this before, especially among my own people. That is why I have exhiled myself form the Armenian community and am now with those whose views are more similar to my own.

[Harut]

The Armenian Apostolic Church is the only place where we may unite as a People.

i thought it was the Freedom Square just next to the Opera House.

[axel]

Your views are not exceedingly clear

 

My views are quite clear. If you are not able (or willing) to understand them, that is your problem.

 

i thought it was the Freedom Square just next to the Opera House.

 

This is a materialistic point of view

 

I should have added the time dimension and emphasized spiritual unity between past, present and future generations.

Edited September 16, 2003 by axel

[America-Hye]

Axel,

 

That was a typograhical error on my part. I meant to type "NOW" not "NOT."

It should have read " Your views are NOW exceedingly clear."

[Arad9]

How can you hold on to your identity as an Armenian yet depart from your Church? Did Vartan Mamigonian fight a lost cause? Where not Sahak and Mesrob, the inventors of our alphabet(not to mention a couple of others alphabets as well) Armenian Priests? Why be proud of our heroes, if you don't share in their beliefs and what they stood for?

 

Did countless Armenian clergy, Saints, soldiers and people die, so we as Armenians could either escape or move to another country and then have the audacity to criticize there beliefs as, and let me put it in the terminology that Protestant missionaries used, “degenerate and backwards”. Some American Armenians rather assimilate, case in point, then to stand out differently in society for there Church, culture and ethnicity cause they want to “fit in” or “be cool”.

 

Perhaps, America-Hye you can tell us how could Armenians be proud of there history yet reject the Armenian Church?

How can we be proud of Vartan Mamegonian and not believe on what he fought for?

How can we be proud of Sahak & Mashtots for giving us the alphabet, when the most important for the alphabet was to translate the bible. As for you exiling yourself from the Armenian community haven’t you done that already by not holding to your faith as an Armenian and what we stand for?

 

America-Hye you have a church which is your home, which our ancestors have fought for, pick-up your cross and join your brothers and sisters in Christ.

[Arpa]

Surprise, surprise!

During those days Sahak and Mesrop were the only TWO who could read and write.

Are you surprised that I can read and write not only in Armenian but in several other languages.

Get real!

Learn to read!

I'm afraid that next you're going to tell us that Tigran Mets was also a Christian priest, that he had the sign of cross held high when he invaded all the way to Jerusalem.

Vardan Mamikonian did not do us much good by DYING. Vahan Mamkonian did us us much more good by surviving and conducting guerilla warfare. (Read my post about Nvarsak). If dying is your definition of a good Armenian, then please include me OUT. And if you don't know what "thanatology" and "martyr mentality" is look it up.

We need to LIVE not DIE.