Why Are There Armenian Protestants?

[aSoldier]

None of us would be here either if someone hadn't figured out how to ride a donkey to get around. But just because some people rode donkeys 1000 years ago, that doesn't mean we should keep riding donkeys for the rest of time, till the end of humanity.

 

That's not a good comparison.

 

What does technology have to do with the basis of Armenian culture?

Edited November 15, 2006 by aSoldier

[Sip]

It's not just a matter of "technology" but more of a matter of "progress". This is how both technology and culture are related in that just because something was relevant and valid in the past, it does not mean it should continually and perpetually be relevant and valid. Hopefully, there is always progress.

[Stormig]

None of us would be here either if someone hadn't figured out how to ride a donkey to get around. But just because some people rode donkeys 1000 years ago, that doesn't mean we should keep riding donkeys for the rest of time, till the end of humanity.

LMAO! Sip, as usual, to the rescue! (SIPS?)

 

The way I see it is - people who fought for their faith also fight for their freedom. Fighting for the faith was the slogan of the time. So - fighting against Zoroastrian Persians means fighting oppression... Oppression against yourself and your children and their children's children, and so on. Therefore, you can choose to stick to your faith, and your descendents can choose their own. Let's face it, sometime soon after the dawn of the world, cavemen were fighting each other for territory and what-not - same line throughout history, and usually - or always - these "religious wars" have more to do with economics and power than with spirituality. So, should people limit themselves between that river and that tree and that mountain? Absolutely not. It's like limiting someone to the same profession passed from father to son for generations because it is all-a-holy-blah-blah-blah. It simply isn't fair. It is universal acception that people are born with free will - even the Pope, today, has to respect that, instead of cursing you with fire and brimstone.

[Arpa]

You mean to say Armenians have no right to "protest", that we have nothing to "protest" about?

Above I posed the not so rhetorical question. So far there has been no reference to it. Yes, yes I know, I am shamelessly playing word games again. Is it illegal for Armenians to protest? Aside from the fact that close to 50% the posts here are protests in some way or other, the biggest Armenian protest in recent memory was when in 1988 over 100,000 descended on the Hraparak with the then illegal banners yelling “Artsakh@ mern e”. Was that not protestation?

Let’s see how many more “Armenian protestants” there are. There is one ruling party, and 60+ more so called political parties in Armenia whose main occupation is protestation. Are not those opposition parties “protestants”? Are not Dashnaks, Hnchaks, Ramgavars …ad nauseam, ad infinitum.. etc “protestants”? Is not one church (catholicosate), take your pick, “protestant” in view of the other?

Once again, allow me to play words.

The spirit of this thread implies that it is, it should be illegal to protest.

When did protesting become illegal?

Of course, there ought to be limits as to what protests are legitimate and which ridiculously destructive. Which brings to mind an anecdote;

There was a huge demonstration downtown. Some were yelling “down with..” others - “long live…”. Anbakum, the town drunk was also yelling… “Down with Armen!”. When asked “which Armen”? He answers; “You know, that Armen, the local bar owner. He is diluting the oghi“.

Ridiculous?

Which protestations are ridiculous and which legitimate?

As we speak there are heated debates and protestations and counter predestinations about the fate of the National Anthem, virtually bringing the NA to a grinding halt. Speaking of ridiculousness. As if there are not any vital issues to protest about!!

[Yervant1]

It's not just a matter of "technology" but more of a matter of "progress". This is how both technology and culture are related in that just because something was relevant and valid in the past, it does not mean it should continually and perpetually be relevant and valid. Hopefully, there is always progress.

Progress is good, no wonder mule came right after donkey.

[Yervant1]

Above I posed the not so rhetorical question. So far there has been no reference to it. Yes, yes I know, I am shamelessly playing word games again.

You get qarsun lashes and qarsun sleepless nights for playing word games without warning.

Did you say qarsun virgins? Forget about it.

[annannimusss]

Anahid Takouhi,I completely agree with you.We should respect each other.That is why people shouldn't talk about the Armenian church like it is trash.The people on this forum are probably more knowledgeable about Armenian History and culture than I am.But I am continuing to learn about our culture and our religion which go hand and hand.

 

Oh and I was wondering about that Protestant thing,but you made a good corection on it.

Edited November 16, 2006 by SakoPasha

[SanVal]

It's true that we should--to a great extent--respect each other's beliefs (or lack thereof), but it's hard to deny that uber-religious people intimidate the atheists much more than the atheists intimidate the uber-religious.

 

That might be inherent in many religions, including Christianity. That's because a true Christian believes in "spreading the good news." It might be good news to them, but I feel like I'm being pestered every time I'm approached by a religious zealot, irrespective of their denomination.

 

By the way, how in the world should a Christian reconcile "spreading the good news" with being non-judgmental, which is another thing a true believer should be? To me, the first says, "go out there and try to recruit people," while the second says, "let them be."

 

It's also curious to me how some Armenians react when you tell them you're an atheist. They say something to the effect, "How can you say that? We're the first Christian nation!" Don't they realize that the fact that Armenia was the first Christian nation doesn't mean that ALL Armenians simultaneously decided to become Christian while exercising their free will? Isn't it obvious that some of our ancestors became Christian just because they were joining the bandwagon or, even worse, to avoid persecution???

[aSoldier]

It's not just a matter of "technology" but more of a matter of "progress". This is how both technology and culture are related in that just because something was relevant and valid in the past, it does not mean it should continually and perpetually be relevant and valid. Hopefully, there is always progress.

 

Culture needs progress?

[Stormig]

Culture needs progress?

Always.

[aSoldier]

Always.

 

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[Stormig]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Culture is not clock-works. Those that deny the actual need for change go the way of the Osmanli...

[aSoldier]

Culture is not clock-works.

 

It's not something you can alter either. It is what it is.

[Stormig]

It's not something you can alter either. It is what it is.

If it could neither be altered nor capable of progress, we'd still be cavemen and cavewomen. Maybe some people on this earth still have a hard time with coming to grips with the fact that cultures were not instated by some super-uber-natural-intelligent designer but rather evolved - as if that is a bad thing.

[Sip]

aSolider, you seem to have a very wrong impression of what "culture" means. Culture by definition means "improvement".

 

It also refers to the arts, "knowledge and sophistication", as well as "shared attitudes" of a group of people. And no matter how many 3 word posts you do, you will never convince me that "shared attitudes" of any large group of people has ever been a constant through any period in history.

[DominO123]

Nice Stormig and Sip, those were the sort of discussions I miss in hyeforum. Edited November 17, 2006 by QueBeceR

[RemainFaithful]

There seems to be some misinformation that need clarification.

 

Based on the historical facts, I would write the following:

 

1- The Armenian Evangelical Church has nothing to do with the Protestant movement of Martin Luther.

2- The Armenian Evangelical Church started as a Reformation within the Mother Church (this is what the Armenian Evangelical Church calls the Armenian Apostolic Church). The people who were very devout believers and teachers in the Apostolic Church were Arakelagan. These devout members wanted to bring the church's simplicity back, and asked the then Catholicos of Bolis to reform the church of the different customs that have been allowed into the church, that have nothing to do with the Bible's teachings. They asked the church leaders to be literate, and teach the Bible and to live exemplary lives.

3- The Armenian Evangelical Church started as a movement of reformation and wanted to stay within the Mother church. However, the Catholicosate took a strong and drastic decision and banned and condemned and accused the reformers' aims and teachings (who were still Arakelagans) as heretical. The reformers were deprived of any marital and any ordinary civil rights. During those times, the millet system was the law. The Armenian Apostolic Church had the right to administer its people's civilian rights. Therefore, these reformers were outcasted and banned from their church without any rights. The Armenian reformers did not want to start a new church. But there was no other route but to become a new church within the Armenian community. They did not want to leave their Armenian Church. That is why they called the church: The Armenian Evangelical Church (Hayasdaniatz Avedaranagan Yegeghetzi - Հայաստանեաց Աւետարանական Եկեղեցի). It is here that the Missionaries helped the Armenian Reformers to stand on their feet and to build the Armenian Evangelical Church. The Armenian Evangelical Church was established on July 1, 1846.

4- The merits of the Armenian Evangelical Church to the Armenian Community has been enormous. Schools opened, the Bible was translated to the Armenian Ashkharapar and distributed to the people. They helped and still do help the Armenian Community by giving scholarship to the Armenian students who enroll in the Armenian Evangelical Schools. And most of the students who benefit from their aids are Arakelagan students, who are not demanded to change their denomination.

5- The Armenian Evangelical Church and Community is very small compared to the the Armenian Apostolic Church and Community. However, their work and service within the Armenian Community exceeds their numbers.

6- The Armenian Evangelical Church still recognizes strongly the Armenian Apostolic Church as their Mother Church within which it was born.

7- The Armenian Evangelical Church celebrates Christmas on January 6. As well as Tarmanchatz, Vartanantz, and April 24.

8- Let me add that the enormous work and service of the Armenian Evangelical Church has had a strong impact on the Armenian Apostolic Church both directly and indirectly. The Apostolic Church started to build schools for girls too during the 20th century. They emphasized the study of the word of the Bible and insisting that all their priesthood to be literate.

 

Today, there are many small "reformation" groups that gather under the wings of the Armenian Apostolic Church. They resemble the Armenian Evangelical Church in the style of their worship gatherings and Bible Studies.

One thing that the now Cilician Catholicosate is wiser than the past Catholicosate is that it has taken these "reformations" under its wings and has allowed them to meet and gather and have their worship meetings within their premises. This is a very vital and wise action that is being taken by the Catholicosate.

[Sip]

Welcome to the forum RemainFaithful.

[RemainFaithful]

Thanks, Sip

[Arpa]

Who said the “fast food” culture is a new phenomenon?

It has been with us since the dawn of civilization, and no one knows that better than us Armenians.When 99 out of 100 versions of the saga of Haik tell us that he was a god-king of Armenia, born and home grown 99 out of 100 of us only remember the egend of him having come from Babylon(NOT!)

Mashtots was meticulous scientist, even if a dreamer, who spent years traveling and researching for his thesis, the Ayb Ben Gim, 99 out of 100 of us know nothing about this side of life an work. We all remember that fable about in one night Mesrop saw in a dream the hand of God write the letters on a chalkboard.

When 99 out of 100 sources tell the true story about the Armenian Evangelical Church (see Peshtimaljian et al below), 99 out of 100 of us subscribe to the fable of the missionaries turning to “already Christian Armenians as they could not accomplish their main mission. This may be partially true , even an American teacher of ours, a missionary himself would also subscribe to this , and he would say “Armenian” and “protestant “ put together was tantamount to an oxymoron. That is based on the millet system where the Apostolic Church was known simply as “Ermeni Kilisa”, I.e when one says Armenian Church it needs no more qualifying, and the others were known as (Ermeni) Protetant and (Ermeni) Katolik.

 

 

There seems to be some misinformation that need clarification.

 

Based on the historical facts, I would write the following:

 

1- The Armenian Evangelical Church has nothing to do with the Protestant movement of Martin Luther.

2- The Armenian Evangelical Church started as a Reformation within the Mother Church (this is what the Armenian Evangelical Church calls the Armenian Apostolic Church). The people who were very devout believers and teachers in the Apostolic Church were Arakelagan. These devout members wanted to bring the church's simplicity back, and asked the then Catholicos of Bolis to reform the church of the different customs that have been allowed into the church, that have nothing to do with the Bible's teachings. They asked the church leaders to be literate, and teach the Bible and to live exemplary lives.

3- The Armenian Evangelical Church started as a movement of reformation and wanted to stay within the Mother church. However, the Catholicosate took a strong and drastic decision and banned and condemned and accused the reformers' aims and teachings (who were still Arakelagans) as heretical. The reformers were deprived of any marital and any ordinary civil rights. During those times, the millet system was the law. The Armenian Apostolic Church had the right to administer its people's civilian rights. Therefore, these reformers were outcasted and banned from their church without any rights. The Armenian reformers did not want to start a new church. But there was no other route but to become a new church within the Armenian community. They did not want to leave their Armenian Church. That is why they called the church: The Armenian Evangelical Church (Hayasdaniatz Avedaranagan Yegeghetzi - Հայաստանեաց Աւետարանական Եկեղեցի). It is here that the Missionaries helped the Armenian Reformers to stand on their feet and to build the Armenian Evangelical Church. The Armenian Evangelical Church was established on July 1, 1846.

Coming back to the “fast food” culture. Who knows that the Arm. Evangelical church was an offshhot of a movement within the Apostolic Church, originally begun as so called society of the pious, parepasht miutiun, whose main goal was to enter a little reform, I.e better educated clergy, use the popular language , educate the public (grabar was the language and the mass of the congregation were virtually illiterate). The original members of that society were officers of the Apostolic Church. See Der Kevork, Der Yeznakian, and der Baghdassarian below.

 

Peshtimaljian, Bishop Nalian, Der Kevork, Der Yezankian and Der Baghdassarian;

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:Tm9dEl...=clnk&cd=10

 

There are many illustrious Armenians who were evangelicals. See Rev. Andreassian one of the heroes of Musa Ler, one of his partners was Rev. Nokhutian, later changed to Siserian and eventually Serian in America.

 

Rev. Andreassian

http://www.churcharmenia.com/evangelical/evmain3_23_01b.html

 

How many know that that all time hero of our modern history, Soghomon Tehlirian had grownin a Evangelical family?

Tehlrian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soghomon_Tehlirian

 

And finally, very few of us may rememberthat when the Great Earthquake happened on Dec. 7 1988, the first diasporan aid arrived at the Zvartnots airport was a plane loaded with food, medicine, blankets and tents was captained by Rev. Movses Janbazian.

Rev. Movses B. Janbazian Awarded the Mesrob Mashdotz Medallion Posthumously

 

The Armenian American community was shocked and saddened by the sudden death of Rev. Movses B. Janbazian, Executive Director of the Armenian Missionary Association of America (AMAA).

 

His Holiness Aram I**, Catholicos of the Great House of Ciicia, immediately offered his condolences on this great loss and subse-quently announced the posthumous award-ing of the Mesrob Mashdotz Medallion to Rev. Janbazian. This is first time that an Armenian evangelical clergyman has been honored with this important award.

 

The presentation was made on Saturday. October 21, during the annual meeting of the Armenian Missionary Association of America in Pararnus, New Jersey. The award was presented by V. Rev. Fr. Anoushavan Tanielian on behalf of the Prelate, Archbishop Oshagan Choloyan. It was accepted by the AMAA President, Andrew Torigian on behalf of the Janbazian family and the AMAA.

 

The encyclical from Aram Vehapar accompanying the award noted the dedi-cated service that Rev. Janbazian has per-formed for the Armenian community worldwide.

 

His Eminence Archbishop Oshagan noted that Rev. Janbazian was a good friend of the Prelacy and worked hand in hand with the Armenian Apostolic Church for the advancement and betterment of the Armenian notion.

 

 

Sreach and ye shall find.

 

If we could only, just like Mesrop Mashtots learn to search and research rather than believe all those, sometimes facetiously prejudicial fables handed down to us the world could be a much better place.

 

** Not to forget that HH Aram I got his theological education at the Armenian Evangelical seminary, Near East School of Theology, popularly known as NEST in Beirut

Edited November 19, 2006 by Arpa

[Arpa]

After all is said above, it does not mean that the missionaries were totally neutral in the process. Even if there may have been a general discontent in the Church, the missionaries may have been used as a model and example that the dissidents saw as an alternative, in addition to which ,the missionaries did in fact encourage, abetted and aided them, be it morally, educationally, legalistically and financially.

 

Coming back to dissidence.

Why is there such a general panic in the Homeland about the so called cults. Personally I don’t condone those cults. To me one denomination is more than enough, yet the real problem is that there are those who may be looking for answers** to their questions that are not being addressed by the establishment. That is not to say that some of those converts don’t have ulterior motives, I.e. financial and legal, like dodging the draft, pretending to be conscientious objectors etc.

 

In conclusion. If those converts and converts to be are genuinely looking for a better faith vehicle, what better than an established and proven alternative like the ARMENIAN Evangelical. At least they are and claim to be proud and concerned ARMENIANS.

 

** Id did not know this. I always thought that converts to Yehova, Mormon or whatever other garbage are protestants . I was surprised to learn that many of those specially such as the Yehovh’s have been Cathlolics, Jews and other non-protestants, as the latter don’t need an alternative, they are content with their open and educated culture, both religious and secular.

[RemainFaithful]

I found the website of Vana Tzayn (the Lebanese Armenian Radio Station), and they have uploaded their programs recently.

 

http://www.voiceofvan.net/html/yerangun.html

 

Click on "October" and then click on "Yenagun 10-17-06" which is about Hokevor Gyank and Abashkhaoutyoun.

 

The 3 guests are priests from the the Armenian Churches, mainly Apostolic, Catholic and Evangelical.

 

and...

 

Click on "Yerangun 10-24-06", which is about the commemoration of the 160the anniversary of the birth of the Armenian Evangelical Church.

 

The guests are a layperson and a pastor from the Armenian Evangelical Churches. The birth, the worship style and the service of the Armenian Evangelical Church are discussed, and many other critical issues and questions are raised and clarified.

[aSoldier]

aSolider, you seem to have a very wrong impression of what "culture" means. Culture by definition means "improvement".

 

It also refers to the arts, "knowledge and sophistication", as well as "shared attitudes" of a group of people. And no matter how many 3 word posts you do, you will never convince me that "shared attitudes" of any large group of people has ever been a constant through any period in history.

 

I'm not saying they've been constant. But you are saying that everything needs to be changed every so often. Even the Armenian Apostolic Church, which I said was the "basis of Armenian culture" and you replied that it needed "progress".

 

It's like changing history. Impossible.

[Sip]

Progress is not about changing history. Progress is about changing the future. So I don't really understand what you mean. Do I think the Church needed progress in the past? Sure. There's not much any of us can do about that now. But that doesn't mean we should think that since now will be the history of the future, we should't change anything because we are living history. Edited November 21, 2006 by Sip

[annannimusss]

These Yehovas and these Mormons need to stop preaching there supposed message in Armenia.This is causing a lot of trouble in Armenia by breaking our people up.They refuse to serve in the military and go cry to the Human Rights Organizations and then they say Armenia is not respecting human rights.If a person does not want to follow the laws of the nation let them get the hell out,and this goes for any nation.

 

 

My mom in Saudia Arabia had to up cover head to toe,did she complain?No!Because this is the law of the Country.

 

Plus our religion is what keeps us Armenians together,as I said before it unites us,these other religions are breaking our people up.