Anileve Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 (edited) If there was no evil, we could not define good. Likewise, man becomes a man when he "knows" woman... style_images/master/snapback.png Excellent but it's not a good argument for why God allows evil if he's all good. THOTH and Domino, wanna give it a try? Edited September 23, 2004 by anileve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 If there was no evil, we could not define good. Likewise, man becomes a man when he "knows" woman... style_images/master/snapback.png So you are saying that God did not wish for their to be "man" (and "women") - only boys & girls? Since "knowledge" (by your definition of such) is exactly what was forbidden in the garden of eden. And as for the first part of your statement - no evil - no definition of good....perhaps this is true - that we need to be able to at least concieve of what is "evil" or wrong before we can define what is "good" or right (right way to behave etc)...but I really see no need for god in this equation...you prick me I bleed etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 I need a good argument for this statement: "If God is all good then why did God create so much evil." God does not create evil, it was by the disobedience of satan that evil was born. It is true that God created satan, but by his will satan chose what is un-Godly rather than Godly, basically making a decision based on his own self centered interest rather than the plan of God. Then you might ask, - then how come there is so much evil in the world ? – It is by the will of man that there is so much evil in the world. Man decides to be destructive, immoral and inhuman is this Gods fault? Or, are we being held accountable for our decisions? Secondly we are too finite to know the will of God. Does this help ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anoushik Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 (edited) Then you might ask, - then how come there is so much evil in the world ? – It is by the will of man that there is so much evil in the world. Man decides to be destructive, immoral and inhuman is this Gods fault? Or, are we being held accountable for our decisions? Secondly we are too finite to know the will of God. Does this help ? style_images/master/snapback.png Man doesn't decide to be destructive and inhuman if he had the chance. I believe it's the environment that makes a man destructive and inhuman, so then I ask how can a good God allow for a man to be born in an environment that will destroy him? Edited September 23, 2004 by anoushik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Excellent but it's not a good argument for why God allows evil if he's all good. THOTH and Domino, wanna give it a try? style_images/master/snapback.png I think your question should be more like: "If God is all good, and has created everything, how evil could exist?" Thats a problem, because if he is the creator and is all good, and that there was one "time"when he was the only thing existing... there was no evil... he created, and in his creation there was evil. How can you creat evil, when you don't have the slightest Evil in you? That's impossible. So, God can possibly not be all good, but rather neutral. You know what? Monotheism suck? How can there be a determinated number of God? This doesn't make sense at all... how could from a determinated thing come underminated things, etc... The only way to think about a god, to make sense, you must have a pantheist or polytheist notion... in those cases, there is no question of why a god would alow evil, because or it is neutral, or there are bad and good gods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Excellent but it's not a good argument for why God allows evil if he's all good. style_images/master/snapback.png No, the argument was OK. You just want me to open the brakets for some reason as if you do not understand what I said. Let's find why do you want to do that... -------------------- God is nither good nor evil. God is love with all its components. What is good? Good is a stagnant process that human beings feal. It was meant for the human beings to feal it. Same goes for the evil. Imagine if there was only good as we define it. Imagine there was no war, no illness etc. etc. Imagine if there was no challenege. Can there be a process without at least two counter polars? Read my signature to find out how this process finds its reflection in physical world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 - So you are saying that God did not wish for their to be "man" (and "women") - only boys & girls? Since "knowledge" (by your definition of such) is exactly what was forbidden in the garden of eden. - And as for the first part of your statement - no evil - no definition of good....perhaps this is true - that we need to be able to at least concieve of what is "evil" or wrong before we can define what is "good" or right (right way to behave etc)...but I really see no need for god in this equation...you prick me I bleed etc... style_images/master/snapback.png - No Thoth I did not say that. In fact what I said was diametrically the opposite. - The Bible and Wisdom http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/BibWis_index.html Thoth, could I ask you to read the following link and give me your opinion. I understand that this sounds strange because it is lengthy, but please do that. I sincerely want to know what you think of it. If you read it, do not just go through it, read every sentence and in the end remember all the pharagraphs and the links between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 - No Thoth I did not say that. In fact what I said was diametrically the opposite. - The Bible and Wisdom http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/BibWis_index.html Thoth, could I ask you to read the following link and give me your opinion. I understand that this sounds strange because it is lengthy, but please do that. I sincerely want to know what you think of it. If you read it, do not just go through it, read every sentence and in the end remember all the pharagraphs and the links between them. style_images/master/snapback.png Haven't read your link yet - but is this from the same guy who offered the proof of Jesus & the resurection - forgot the name of the book - but I did read the whole thing...yawn - what can I say...OK - I'll at least check out your ik - but I make no promisses...and when you bring up the issue of "knowing" - well this is exactly what the whole garden of eden and original sin etc etc thinng is all about...Christianiy sucks so - what can I say - its pretty much completley anti-human...love that god...well he needs to learn to love us first - and aparently he doesn't - not at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 - No Thoth I did not say that. In fact what I said was diametrically the opposite. - The Bible and Wisdom http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/BibWis_index.html Thoth, could I ask you to read the following link and give me your opinion. I understand that this sounds strange because it is lengthy, but please do that. I sincerely want to know what you think of it. If you read it, do not just go through it, read every sentence and in the end remember all the pharagraphs and the links between them. style_images/master/snapback.png That's a classic... and there are some point in that article that make me boil. There is one modern German Christian philosopher... I'll let you find the name, that is in my sense one of the only worth reading about this matter... what you've posted is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 OK - I've read about 1/4 way down and yeah ir is long and slow...perhaps I;'ll read the rest - but I've had a bit to drink and it really isnn't thrilling me right now...just wanted to say he has some facts wrong concerning the various names of God...he mentions Elohim (clearly a plural that he does not acknoeledge etc and he has the translation wrong...and the other name is Yaweh...not Jehova. Yaweh was originally a reference to a specific fire/volcano god that the Jews adopted as there own...)....now do i really have to read the rest? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 That's a classic... and there are some point in that article that make me boil. There is one modern German Christian philosopher... I'll let you find the name, that is in my sense one of the only worth reading about this matter... what you've posted is... style_images/master/snapback.png Yeah agreed...would it e Bonhoffer? Familiar at all with him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 (edited) Yeah agreed...would it e Bonhoffer? Familiar at all with him? style_images/master/snapback.png http://www.mythosandlogos.com/Jaspers.html Karl Jaspers Philosophically speaking, I think no one come close to him in supporting a world centered on a god... If you read him, you'll see the difference with people such as Chinmoy etc... and this man. This man is a great man. Edited September 24, 2004 by Fadix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Armen - I just read it all and I have to say it does nothing for me - does not at all convince me of anything.. "Only a man who is able to create the wisdom from out of his own being can be a real Authority on the Bible. It may be said then, that the Bible is intelligible to a man who can penetrate into the spiritual world, who can receive its influences into himself. The Bible induces in such a man an absolute certainty that it is written by Initiates and inspired souls;" Well I am one who firmly believes that I discover my own wisdom, (not wholly inwardly - but reliant on observations and insights of others of course)...however I find that most who relay on the bible cannot at all say this IMO/from my experience - but are in fact dependent...and limited in theri worlf vieews (I said most and not all - you seem like a bright guy - but I have to say - your positions strike me as sometimes pretty nuts...what cann i say...)...as for the bible as the do all and end all for those who can "penetrate into the spiritual world" well I just say nada..I am not at all convinced...and I would argue that many spiritual people - of differnt belief - of which there are a great many in this world - would certainly think otherwise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Armen - I just read it all and I have to say it does nothing for me - does not at all convince me of anything... Well, I guess thank you for reading it...If I were to convince you that there is a God and he is good and you could comprehend it with your brain we would both die the same moment because life would be meaningless because we would mentally understand that there is a director of this movie called "Life" who is in charge of everything. Why to leave in this case, right? I mean what's the point of leaving if everything is set up? The moment we understand mentally that this all is set up we will feal like God is the biggest conspiracy of all times. That's why we cannot understand it mentally. Well I am one who firmly believes that I discover my own wisdom, (not wholly inwardly - but reliant on observations and insights of others of course)...however I find that most who relay on the bible cannot at all say this IMO/from my experience - but are in fact dependent...and limited in theri worlf vieews (I said most and not all - you seem like a bright guy - but I have to say - your positions strike me as sometimes pretty nuts...what cann i say...)...as for the bible as the do all and end all for those who can "penetrate into the spiritual world" well I just say nada..I am not at all convinced...and I would argue that many spiritual people - of differnt belief - of which there are a great many in this world - would certainly think otherwise... style_images/master/snapback.png The greatest dependence me and you have are our instincts not the bible. Can you free youself of your instincts? That's the real liberty. Why to do that? Just try to confront one of your instincts. You will feal like you're a pussycat against a guy with a big "Mojo". Now tell me you're free... Actually reading this stuff with a glass of wine is the right way. After all it's Jesus' blood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Actually reading this stuff with a glass of wine is the right way. After all it's Jesus' blood. style_images/master/snapback.png make that a bottle of wine..now gone..shucks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Actually reading this stuff with a glass of wine is the right way. After all it's Jesus' blood. style_images/master/snapback.png Too bad Jesus was not living in our era, Thoth has all the blood needed, Jesus would never have died with all the transfusions he could get from Thoth cellar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 (edited) Too bad Jesus was not living in our era, Thoth has all the blood needed, Jesus would never have died with all the transfusions he could get from Thoth cellar. style_images/master/snapback.png You get an A+ for that Domino Edit: typo Edited September 24, 2004 by ArmenSarg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 So, Evelina...you just picked up the fight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 http://www.mythosandlogos.com/Jaspers.html Karl Jaspers Philosophically speaking, I think no one come close to him in supporting a world centered on a god... If you read him, you'll see the difference with people such as Chinmoy etc... and this man. This man is a great man. style_images/master/snapback.png What you posted is...What I posted is a lot better. And generally, I am better than you Domino I'll read that lowsy articaly you posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 (edited) God does not create evil, it was by the disobedience of satan that evil was born. It is true that God created satan, but by his will satan chose what is un-Godly rather than Godly, basically making a decision based on his own self centered interest rather than the plan of God. Then you might ask, - then how come there is so much evil in the world ? – It is by the will of man that there is so much evil in the world. Man decides to be destructive, immoral and inhuman is this Gods fault? style_images/master/snapback.png That's definitely one counter argument. However, one can say that if God created human beings how did he allow such imperfection? After some meditating I came across one argument, which makes more or less sense. God is a good businessman, he created opposing forces to provide competition and ensure harmonious and balanced existence. Everything must have its counterpart to exist, I guess. Edited September 24, 2004 by anileve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 God created man in his own image. Some men are Gay. Therefore God is sometimes Gay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 So, Evelina...you just picked up the fight? style_images/master/snapback.png Was not my intention, I was merely trying to get one concise and brief statement which may serve as a premise for God's existence. I wasn't really interested in technicalities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 That's definitely one counter argument. However, one can say that if God created human beings how did he allow such imperfection? After some meditating I came across one argument, which makes more or less sense. God is a good businessman, he created opposing forces to provide competition and ensure harmonious and balanced existence. Everything must have its counterpart to exist, I guess. style_images/master/snapback.png still the problem of humanising this being - this totally unkoen entity - series of entities - or non entities...why worry about such at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 God created man in his own image. Some men are Gay. Therefore God is sometimes Gay. style_images/master/snapback.png How about men created God in their image? That's why God is often portrayed as having human characteristics such as jealousy, anger, love, forgiveness and impregnating women without their consent. Well at least one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 still the problem of humanising this being - this totally unkoen entity - series of entities - or non entities...why worry about such at all? style_images/master/snapback.png I was just being silly by simplifying the explanation with playful terms. You can eliminate them and create a perfectly scientific statement. Universe is probably one of the most harmonious entity. Everything in universe has negative and positive, thus for its function balance of opposing forces is necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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