God exists!

[THOTH]

Good stuff! But everytime I would read "DEVO" there would be an automatic echo in my head whispering a rhyme "GEVO." Ok never mind.

 

 

Yeah it does fit....

 

 

Well that's for those who believe that evil and good have separate creators. See but that's where I start dissecting things. What if Elohim is really two beings, counterparts, which provide us with characteristics prevalent to both. One being is praised and the other is despised. In order for human nature to justify it's existence it must define what its striving for and fighting against. Otherwise life without struggles would cease to function. And I do believe that Satan is perhaps of female gender and God is of Male. Simply because God is more rigid and jealous and Satan is more playful and flexible.

 

Perhaps you are onto someting there. Remember Judeao religion that Christianty has its roots in is a Patriachial religion that evolved from sheparding people. These people were dull & rigid compared to the party animal agricultural peoples - who were generally all matriarchial and goddess worshiping. (all true) These deadbeat shepards turned all the fun fertility goddesses and all the other gods of the fun loving partying agriculturalist into demons and succbuss and such. And yes - no doubt (humankinds dear friend) the slithery serpent was one of these...I like your theory - about Satan being a woman (except only it gives the bible thumpers another excuse to denigrate and blame women for the ills fo the world)...but yeah as Christians seem to want to supress all that is sensuous - all that is wild & fun - yeah it does fit...

 

So perhaps we are just actors in the eternal steamy romance between God and Satan. Jeez, I’ve created some serious mythology here. I don't know just some random thoughts. Perhaps some philosophers were right when they associated women with evil but they clearly misunderstood the role and significance of the evil force which must be appreciated much as its counterpart.

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Yeah! he is always trying to get "her" to submit to him - big sado masochistic bully! And I'm certain there are a few violent rapes from his frustrated rage..and he is certainly jealous that "she" is so much cooler...dresses well, goes to the best parites, is more fun in bed...etc etc...yeah I like!

Edited September 24, 2004 by THOTH

[Nakharar]

Oops! Correction: I'm the one who had a few drinks too many in the office.

[THOTH]

The Elohim

For the ancient Hebrews "divinities (elohim) dwelt in nature and in the sky. Different tribes each had particular deities who were especially concerned with their affairs."

- Ninian Smart, The Religious Experience of Mankind

 

"...The geologist Christian O'Brien argued that these [ancient Hebrew and Sumerian] texts describe a race of beings called Shining Ones - his translation of the Hebrew word Elohim. These beings created modern humans from earlier human forms by genetic manipulation. Some of these beings, called Watchers, mated with humans, and this was considered a crime by the Shining Ones. One of the Watchers was named Shemjaza, and Yahweh was one of the Shining Ones. O'Brien argued that the Shining Ones were superior but mortal beings of unknown origin."

- Richard L. Thompson, Alien Identities - Ancient Insights into Modern UFO Phenomena

 

"When the gods created Mankind

Death for Mankind they allotted,

Life they retained in their own keeping."

- The Epic of Gilgamesh

 

"The Elohim originally included not only foreign superstitious forms, but also all that host of Heaven which was revealed in poetry to the shepherds of the desert, now as an encampment of warriors, nor as careering in chariots of fire, and now as winged messengers, ascending and descending the vault of Heaven, to communicate the will of God to mankind."

- General Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

 

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...."

- Genesis 1:26

 

"In the clay god and Man shall be bound, to a unity brought together;

So that to the end of days

the Flesh and the Soul

which in a god have ripened -

that Soul in a blood-kinship be bound."

- Sumerian creation story, Encyclopedia Britannica

 

The creators (Elohim) outline in the second hour 'the shape of a more corporeal form of man. They separate it into two and prepare the sexes to become distinct from each other. Such is the way the Elohim proceeded in reference to every created thing."

- Eliphas Levi, The Nuctameron of the Hebrews

 

"...The androgynous constitution of the Elohim is disclosed in the next verse, where he (referring to God) is said to have created man in his own image, male and female; or, more properly, as the division of the sexes had not yet taken place, male-female....This definitive reference to a humanity existing prior to the 'creation of man' described in Genesis must be evident to the most casual reader of Scripture."

- Manly P. Hall, Masonic, Hermetic, Quabbalistic & Rosicrucian Symbolical Philosophy

 

"...The sons of gods (bene ha-elohim) saw the daughters of men that they were fair..."

- Genesis 6:2a

 

"Other Elohim are occasionally mentioned throughout the older parts of the Old Testament. The most important of them is Baal, usually translated as the Owner. In the Canaan of the times, there were many Owners, one to each village, in the same way that many Catholic cities today have their own Virgin Marys, and yet they are all the same one."

- Julian Jaynes, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind

 

Not all scholars accept the plural nature of the Elohim.

"Biblical Hebrew occasionally employs something scholars call the 'majestic plural'. In effect it is a plural ending added to a deity's name to confer status or majesty. In the Old Testament the best example is Elohim which does not mean 'the gods' but is rather the god El with the majestic plural im appended."

- David M. Rohl, A Test of Time: The Bible from Myth to History (1993), p. 228

[THOTH]

Oops! Correction: I'm the one who had a few drinks too many in the office. 

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hmm..not sure coffee counts eh?

[THOTH]

more...

 

Bene Elohim

 

Note that plural gods elohim' appears in the earliest Hebrew texts, even though it is translated as God (El) in modern texts.

 

"...The sons of gods (bene ha-elohim') saw the daughters of men that they were fair..."

- Genesis 6:2a

 

"The sons of God (or children of God; 'bene elohim' and variants) are divine members of God's heavenly host...The title 'sons/children of God' is familiar from Ugaritic mythology, in which the gods collectively are the 'children of El'...The sons/children of God are also found in Phoenician and Ammonite inscriptions, referring to the pantheon of sub-ordinate deities, indicating that the term was widespread in the West Semitic religions."

- Oxford Companion to the Bible

 

"The Watchers were "a specific race of divine beings known in Hebrew as nun resh 'ayin, 'irin' (resh 'ayin, 'ir' in singular), meaning 'those who watch' or 'those who are awake', which is translated into Greek as Egrhgoroi egregoris or grigori, meaning 'watchers'. These Watchers feature in the main within the pages of pseudepigraphal and apocryphal works of Jewish origin, such as the Book of Enoch and the Book of Jubilees. Their progeny, according to Hebrew tradition, are named as nephilim, a Hebrew word meaning 'those who have fallen' or 'the fallen ones', translated into Greek as gigantez, gigantes, or 'giants' - a monstrous race featured in the Theogony of the hellenic writer Hesiod (c. 907 BC)."

- Andrew Collins, From the Ashes of Angels - The Forbidden Legacy of a Fallen Race (1996) p. 3

 

"The statement (Gen. 6:1) that the 'sons of God' married the daughters of men is explained of the fall of the angels, in Enoch, vi-xi, and codices, D, E F, and A of the Septuagint read frequently, for 'sons of God', oi aggeloi tou qeou ['angels of God']. Unfortunately, codices B and C are defective in Ge., vi, but it is probably that they, too, read oi aggeloi in this passage, for they constantly so render the expression 'sons of God'; cf. Job i, 6; ii, 1; xxxviii, 7; but on the other hand, see Ps. ii, 1; lxxxviii, & (Septuagint). Philo, in commenting on the passage in his treatise 'Quod Deus sit immutabilis', i, follows the Septuagint."

- Hugh Pope, The Catholic Encyclopedia

[THOTH]

The Names of God

 

by Lambert Dolphin

 

Old Testament (The Hebrew Scriptures, or Tanach):

 

EL: God ("mighty, strong, prominent") used 250 times in the OT See Gen. 7:1, 28:3, 35:11; Nu. 23:22; Josh. 3:10; 2 Sam. 22:31, 32; Neh. 1:5, 9:32; Isa. 9:6; Ezek. 10:5. El is linguistically equivalent to the Moslem "Allah," but the attributes of Allah in Islam are entirely different from those of the God of the Hebrews. ELAH is Aramaic, "god." Elah appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jer. 10:11 (which is in Aramaic, and is plural, "gods"). In Daniel (the Aramaic sections) Elah is used both of pagan gods, and of the true God, also plural. Elah is equivalent to the Hebrew Eloah which some think is dual; Elohim is three or more. The gods of the nations are called "elohim." The origin of Eloah is obscure. Elohim is the more common plural form of El. Eloah is used 41 times in Job between 3:4 and 40:2, but fewer than 15 times elsewhere in the OT. See the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Elohim.

 

ELOHIM: God (a plural noun, more than two, used with singular verbs); Elohim occurs 2,570 times in the OT, 32 times in Gen. 1. God as Creator, Preserver, Transcendent, Mighty and Strong. Eccl., Dan. Jonah use Elohim almost exclusively. See Gen. 17:7, 6:18, 9:15, 50:24; I Kings 8:23; Jer. 31:33; Isa. 40:1.

[Sasun]

Armen, I will read that article by Rudolph Steiner, read a little and seems interesting and appealing.

 

For serious and non-dogmatic people, here is a clear explanation of the Genesis story from Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda, a book I highly recommend reading for many other reasons.

 

http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/16.asp

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Master expounded the Christian Bible with a beautiful clarity. It was from my Hindu guru, unknown to the roll call of Christian membership, that I learned to perceive the deathless essence of the Bible, and to understand the truth in Christ's assertion—surely the most thrillingly intransigent ever uttered: "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

 

The great masters of India mold their lives by the same godly ideals which animated Jesus; these men are his proclaimed kin: "Whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." "If ye continue in my word," Christ pointed out, "then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Freemen all, lords of themselves, the Yogi-Christs of India are part of the immortal fraternity: those who have attained a liberating knowledge of the One Father.

 

"The Adam and Eve story is incomprehensible to me!" I observed with considerable heat one day in my early struggles with the allegory. "Why did God punish not only the guilty pair, but also the innocent unborn generations?"

 

Master was more amused by my vehemence than my ignorance. "Genesis is deeply symbolic, and cannot be grasped by a literal interpretation," he explained. "Its 'tree of life' is the human body. The spinal cord is like an upturned tree, with man's hair as its roots, and afferent and efferent nerves as branches. The tree of the nervous system bears many enjoyable fruits, or sensations of sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch. In these, man may rightfully indulge; but he was forbidden the experience of sex, the 'apple' at the center of the bodily garden.

 

"The 'serpent' represents the coiled-up spinal energy which stimulates the sex nerves. 'Adam' is reason, and 'Eve' is feeling. When the emotion or Eve-consciousness in any human being is overpowered by the sex impulse, his reason or Adam also succumbs.

 

"God created the human species by materializing the bodies of man and woman through the force of His will; He endowed the new species with the power to create children in a similar 'immaculate' or divine manner.16 Because His manifestation in the individualized soul had hitherto been limited to animals, instinct-bound and lacking the potentialities of full reason, God made the first human bodies, symbolically called Adam and Eve. To these, for advantageous upward evolution, He transferred the souls or divine essence of two animals. In Adam or man, reason predominated; in Eve or woman, feeling was ascendant. Thus was expressed the duality or polarity which underlies the phenomenal worlds. Reason and feeling remain in a heaven of cooperative joy so long as the human mind is not tricked by the serpentine energy of animal propensities.

 

"The human body was therefore not solely a result of evolution from beasts, but was produced by an act of special creation by God. The animal forms were too crude to express full divinity; the human being was uniquely given a tremendous mental capacity—the 'thousand-petaled lotus' of the brain—as well as acutely awakened occult centers in the spine.

 

"God, or the Divine Consciousness present within the first created pair, counseled them to enjoy all human sensibilities, but not to put their concentration on touch sensations. These were banned in order to avoid the development of the sex organs, which would enmesh humanity in the inferior animal method of propagation. The warning not to revive subconsciously-present bestial memories was not heeded. Resuming the way of brute procreation, Adam and Eve fell from the state of heavenly joy natural to the original perfect man.

 

"Knowledge of 'good and evil' refers to the cosmic dualistic compulsion. Falling under the sway of maya through misuse of his feeling and reason, or Eve—and Adam—consciousness, man relinquishes his right to enter the heavenly garden of divine self-sufficiency. The personal responsibility of every human being is to restore his 'parents' or dual nature to a unified harmony or Eden."

 

As Sri Yukteswar ended his discourse, I glanced with new respect at the pages of Genesis.

 

"Dear Master,' I said, "for the first time I feel a proper filial obligation toward Adam and Eve!"

Edited September 24, 2004 by Sasun

[Nakharar]

hmm..not sure coffee counts eh?

 

We don't drink coffee on Happy Fridays.

[THOTH]

We don't drink coffee on Happy Fridays.

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Hm..what do you do then...sniff glue? j/k

[DominO123]

What you posted is...What I posted is a lot better. And generally, I am better than you Domino

 

I'll read that lowsy articaly you posted.

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Jaspers is one of the few moder philosopher that proposed a God centered world that may have some sense and you compare him with an average religionist?

[Ludwig9]

you mean we became human...

 

we were already human. I understand and agree with you that our idea of being human contains imperfections. But, what I am stating that Gods designed us as perfect and, we are the originators of our imperfection.

 

how could we be human if we were perfect...this does not compute..and of course - if we were perfect how could we have erred so (seems like a pretty big "oops" eh? Then again it says something for "self centered desires" I imagine

 

You contradict yourself here - you say God didn't create an opposing force as/to be a counterpart...but then yousay everything must have a counterpart to exist.....sooo - did God not exist until he created a counterpart...or does god not exist because he has no counterpart? Think about this one a bit - eh...

 

Let me clarify myself,

 

 

Anileve stated that - Everything must have its counterpart to exist, I guess - .

 

I am stating that in order for something to exist it doesn’t need a counterpart to exist. God exists infinitely and does not need anything to verify His existence. Here is an example: The sun exists, the sun does not need a moon in order to exist, not to mention if the moon didn’t exist the sun would still continue to exist with or without a moon.

[DominO123]

I am stating that in order for something to exist it doesn’t need a counterpart to exist. God exists infinitely and does not need anything to verify His existence.  Here is an example: The sun exists, the sun does not need a moon in order to exist, not to mention if the moon didn’t exist the sun would still continue to exist with or without a moon.

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For something to be self-aware, it must observe something... a god alone can not be self-aware.

[Armen]

http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/16.asp

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Interesting Sasun. I need to read it one more time however. Will PM you.

[Armen]

Jaspers is one of the few moder philosopher that proposed a God centered world that may have some sense and you compare him with an average religionist?

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I have stopped reading philosophy for quite some time now. If I read phylosophy I read Neitzsche. He is the link between philosophy and anthoposophy.

I will read Jaspers. I've surely heard his name but didn't read any of his works. However, you're very wrong in saying that Steiner is a religionist. I wonder what is your statement based on. All his life was a criticizm of religion. And he worked all his life to creat a Spiritual Science as opposed to religion.

[DominO123]

I have stopped reading philosophy for quite some time now. If I read phylosophy I read Neitzsche. He is the link between philosophy and anthoposophy.

I will read Jaspers. I've surely heard his name but didn't read any of his works. However, you're very wrong in saying that Steiner is a religionist. I wonder what is your statement based on. All his life was a criticizm of religion. And he worked all his life to creat a Spiritual Science as opposed to religion.

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Armen, from every sense of the term, I call a man writing such works a religionist.

 

http://www.elib.com/Steiner/Religion/

[Armen]

Armen, from every sense of the term, I call a man writing such works a religionist.

 

http://www.elib.com/Steiner/Religion/

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Domino, he was in natural sciences before founding anthoposophy and studyed maths extensively, published couple of articles. The works that you see on that web-site are roughlt the half of what he has written. Besides Christianity he has covered each and every other religion. He has works on education (Waldorfian schools), agriculture, medicine, physics, astronomy, politics, economy, culture, music and everything else you will name. A book or a number of lectures dedicated to each and every subject you can imagine. And you call this man a religionist? Anthroposophy is not another phylosophy Domino it is a whole movement and has many followers and dozens of independent writers who discuss and criticize Steiner.

 

I don't know why is is that this we-site has chose to present only the religious part of his works.

 

How come you did a simple search and replyed to me. You're much more deep with your other undertakings.

[MosJan]

One of the angels tells God that Armenians and azeris are going to fight agene

 

So God has decide to go dawn ad see it him self on what’s going on

 

Wan passing by azeri front line he can see haw azeris are getting ready..... weapons and artillery …

Wan passing by Armenian front lines the only think he can see is the smoke from the BBQ and bunch of Armenians dancing and having fun….

 

After pausing for a moment God says to him self – Ara sranq eli Huys@ im vra en drel ???

[Maral]

One  of  the angels tells  God  that Armenians and azeris are going  to fight agene

 

So God  has  decide to  go dawn ad see it  him self  on what’s  going on

 

Wan passing by azeri front line  he  can see  haw  azeris are getting ready..... weapons and artillery …

Wan passing  by Armenian  front  lines  the only  think he can see is the smoke  from the  BBQ and bunch  of  Armenians  dancing and  having  fun….

 

After pausing for a moment God says to him self – Ara sranq eli Huys@ im vra en drel ???

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hehehe...gone one

[DominO123]

Domino, he was in natural sciences before founding anthoposophy and studyed maths extensively, published couple of articles. The works that you see on that web-site are roughlt the half of what he has written. Besides Christianity he has covered each and every other religion. He has works on education (Waldorfian schools), agriculture, medicine, physics, astronomy, politics, economy, culture, music and everything else you will name. A book or a number of lectures dedicated to each and every subject you can imagine. And you call this man a religionist? Anthroposophy is not another phylosophy Domino it is a whole movement and has many followers and dozens of independent writers who discuss and criticize Steiner.

 

I don't know why is is that this we-site has chose to present only the religious part of his works.

 

How come you did a simple search and replyed to me. You're much more deep with your other undertakings.

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Armen, I am not denying him having founded Anthroposophy, neither that he is very well known as the father of Anthroposophy. I am neither denying what he has studied. This does not change the fact that he was a religionist. Theology was the center of his work. Beside that, being the founder means nothing in some cases, many of his theosophist ideas were directly derived from Goethe and were at the bases of the foundation of Anthroposophy.

 

Beside that, Anthroposophy was even one of the originel mythologic NAZI myths from where the NAZI race ideologies were derived from. I really don't know how to say that without hurting you... anyway, you know that I must say what I have to say.

 

I think the man was insane, his supposed telepatic communications with people from Atlantis(from where allegedly the "Aryan races" came from according to his mythologic beliefs).

 

I really don't see why people must be attracted by such people, leave this guy, you want something about God, read Jaspers, he was a honest great man, without doubfull ideologies, known for his opposition against NAZIsm, he was kicked out from his work, threatned as far as being nearly deported because he maintained his views and refused to shut up denouncing the NAZI regime. A man of his convictions, one of the fathers of existancialism, which contrary to many other notions is not dangerous.

Edited September 24, 2004 by Fadix

[DominO123]

One  of  the angels tells  God  that Armenians and azeris are going  to fight agene

 

So God  has  decide to  go dawn ad see it  him self  on what’s  going on

 

Wan passing by azeri front line  he  can see  haw  azeris are getting ready..... weapons and artillery …

Wan passing  by Armenian  front  lines  the only  think he can see is the smoke  from the  BBQ and bunch  of  Armenians  dancing and  having  fun….

 

After pausing for a moment God says to him self – Ara sranq eli Huys@ im vra en drel ???

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God was mistaken, if he were to come closer and take a look, those BBQ were fake ones, they in fact were new Armenian weapons.

[DominO123]

I do not entirly agree with what they say... they maintain that homeopathy works, which I agree with, that is as far as I can agree with.

[Armen]

Armen, I am not denying him having founded Anthroposophy, neither that he is very well known as the father of Anthroposophy. I am neither denying what he has studied. This does not change the fact that he was a religionist. Theology was the center of his work. Beside that, being the founder means nothing in some cases, many of his theosophist ideas were directly derived from Goethe and were at the bases of the foundation of Anthroposophy.

 

Beside that, Anthroposophy was even one of the originel mythologic NAZI myths from where the NAZI race ideologies were derived from. I really don't know how to say that without hurting you... anyway, you know that I must say what I have to say.

 

I think the man was insane, his supposed telepatic communications with people from Atlantis(from where allegedly the "Aryan races" came from according to his mythologic beliefs).

 

I really don't see why people must be attracted by such people, leave this guy, you want something about God, read Jaspers, he was a honest great man, without doubfull ideologies, known for his opposition against NAZIsm, he was kicked out from his work, threatned as far as being nearly deported because he maintained his views and refused to shut up denouncing the NAZI regime. A man of his convictions, one of the fathers of existancialism, which contrary to many other notions is not dangerous.

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Domino, you're wrong. Theology is not the center of his work. Is it just the introduction. Anthropos is the center that is why it is called Anthroposophy. This completely changes your claim that he was a religionist. The fact that he derived ideas from Geothe and developed them does not diminish his work in any way.

Nazies could as well apply some ideas from Moses or king Solomon. That's why they were Nazies.

Domino you do not know anything about it. He predicted Nazism and prescribed how to deal with it. As far as his criticism of Jews is concerned, which you imply in you statement, you take it as a popular cliche. If that makes Steiner an anti-semite in your eyes, that comes from ignorance and your baseless resentment of everything German, which is a popular mindset in U.S. and Canada.

Yes, Steiner's work was based on the development of supersensibility. If you're going to call that insanity I think there is nothing new in that. Natural science has called all spiritual efforts insanity for some centuries now.

[DominO123]

Domino, you're wrong. Theology is not the center of his work. Is it just the introduction. Anthropos is the center that is why it is called Anthroposophy. This completely changes your claim that he was a religionist. The fact that he derived ideas from Geothe and developed them does not diminish his work in any way.

Nazies could as well apply some ideas from Moses or king Solomon. That's why they were Nazies.

Domino you do not know anything about it. He predicted Nazism and prescribed how to deal with it. As far as his criticism of Jews is concerned, which you imply in you statement, you take it as a popular cliche. If that makes Steiner an anti-semite in your eyes, that comes from ignorance and your baseless resentment of everything German, which is a popular mindset in U.S. and Canada.

Yes, Steiner's work was based on the development of supersensibility. If you're going to call that insanity I think there is nothing new in that. Natural science has called all spiritual efforts insanity for some centuries now.

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Armen, I do not wish to continue this discussion. Sorry.

[Armen]

Armen, I do not wish to continue this discussion. Sorry.

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Sorry, but that's exactly what I expected you to say.

[DominO123]

Sorry, but that's exactly what I expected you to say.

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Why starting to post one by one, when neither you nor me are interested to converse? You have already your mind set, so as I... I am not interested to enter in an athymological war of what a word mean or doesn't, and I am sure that neither are you.

 

Believe in any one you want, if you believe some crackpot that was telepaticaly communicating with the invisible inhabitants of the invisible Atlantis so be it.