Sip Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 I feal like a preacher that everyone addresses with his/her problems and questions that arise in form of rebeling against Gods existence because they where not created perfect. Well, in the above case, it wasn't really addressed to you just prompted by what you said And anileve, I think I have dragged this thread into the gutter as it is so don't get me started on my theories of what the "apple" in the bible represents and what eve did or did not swallow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Actually, I am tired of this bullshit... I am not gonna say anything about his theme any more. style_images/master/snapback.png Armen jan, why so bitter? It's just a discussion, plus your input is one of the most valuable ones since your answers are always very profound and serious. I know I joke around a lot, but I hardly mock the topic, it has always fascinated me. It's just that this time I need a brief answer, because that's something I was supposed to provide for an inquiring student. Truce? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Well, in the above case, it wasn't really addressed to you just prompted by what you said And anileve, I think I have dragged this thread into the gutter as it is so don't get me started on my theories of what the "apple" in the bible represents and what eve did or did not swallow. style_images/master/snapback.png Why can't you be more serious like Armen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 I was serious around post #89 in this thread which I made as my first post ever on this forum about 3 years ago Since then, I've become a bit more cynical, especially when matters of "God" is concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 (edited) Yes Sip - and here was my response to you (post #90 in this thread)...and how little has changed eh? (note introduction of the concept of multiverse years before Domino took such as his own...lol) Sip - welcome and nice post. After reviewing the preceeding discussions in detail I have a few things to say: 1)bread (like many inventions) was seemingly an accident For those who have not seen James Burk's TV series' - "Connections" and "The day the universe changed" - I highly recommend them)...and it seems reasonably accepted that beer came first. (based on the earliest writings...a recepie for beer) it seems that the ancients observed fermentation from wild grains that had been gathered and attempted to standardize it and make it more reliably available. Agriculture and the making of bread seem to have been (byproducts) spurred on by developments begun by the desire for a more steady supply of beer (much like the sucess of videos & the vcr [& possibly the internet...not sure on the later] due to P O R N O) 2) Evolution - is observable all around us. It is basically fact - as well as a thing can be known and accepted by man (IMO). Watch a National Geographic (or the like) special on the adaptation/transformation of Birds to certain specific environments (for instance). (The determination of species differation is somewhat arbitrary however - but observable environmentally determinstic changes have been sufficient to cause new species [split off from previous existing] to be named). Also - I have a buddy who does/did genetic work on fruit flies because their generational turnover (life/reproduction etc) is so short and mutations can be observed - specifically including those that take (and thus perpetuate) based on specific environmental advantages. BTW - I have developed a varient on the commonly accepted phrase used to describe the process of evolution: "survival of the fittest" - mine: "survival of the fattest" ...you figure it out... 3) Though I am (self) called THOTH - I do not feel qualified to answer your (this threads) ultimate question - "Does God exist?" (The answer to) this question is well beyond (even!) me (I mean I can't even spell properly...so really now)...and I believe human beings (in our current state of evolution!) lack both mental capacity to properly even frame the question(s) and could not comprehend the answer(s) even if one/they could be had (particularly given the possible characteristcs of such a being/beings/entitie(s)/construct and the process's involved (in Universe/Multiverse/reality creation). I do believe that there is more than one question here (going back to the initial theme) - consiting of some shades of gray and not just black and white. And we might do better dividing them up to focus our (ultimatly [iMO] senseless, but perhaps enjoyable(?)) discussion/debate. Here are some possible subdivisions (and I am sure there are many more): Does/do (a) supreme entity(s) exist that somehow created the Universe as we know it? (sub question - is there really meaning in contemplating the sex {as we know it} to such (a) being(s)?) Do we know/can we really define this universe? Are there others? Did the entity(s) create them as well? Was this a conscious effort or a byproduct of something else (that I think almost by definition we cannot/are not {yet} capable to understand..in any event)? Do/does this being/beings care (about the creation and to what degree? Does it have a purpose? Does it include us? Are we central to it? Is it beyond us? Are we (just) byproducts or stepping stones? Do/does it/they really manage things? At what level? Predestination - fact or fiction (etc)? Are moral issues among humans (etc) really a concern? Do we have them right? Or are they just a human/mortal thing? Do any religious books (seemingly penned by man and certainly not perfect) really describe this/these beings in any way (that is remotely close to reality)? Are any/all (&/or which ones) of the various holy books of man truly inspired/penned by God/the gods? How can we know? Could this/these being(s) be deceptive on purpose? Does any of this really matter (to us)? Why? How can we know? Does imploring the devine for favorable treatment have any real effect? What is/are the proper means (if any)? (ie. blood sacrifice/self flaggelation/prayer wheels/offerings/chanting etc etc) Is fear (of death/punishment etc) truly a noble and sufficient motivator? Can only one version (of reality & God(s) etc) be true? Who has the capacity to ever know which one (?) it is? Where does heresy/blashphemy fit in? How can we be sure that God/the Gods is/are good? (and has/have our best interests in mind?) Can we truly ever really know? Can there ever be a resemblance (in his/their image type thing) and "meeting of the minds" between beings of such obvious disparity in capabilites/motivations/world (reality) view - etc? etc etc I am a Daoist BTW. (we accept not knowing, basically...to [think you] know is not to know type of thing, as it cannot be known...etc) So there are questions - but no real (ultimate) answers. This being the case - how worked up should we really get? Peace. I think that is enough for now - my brain hurts... style_images/master/snapback.png Edited September 24, 2004 by THOTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Thoth, FYI, your replies and welcome in this thread was most likely the reason for me sticking around! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 The explanation can open a door to further arguments however it would not be as infused with glitches as some other arguments such as "Because the bible says so" may reflect. Did I make myself more clear? style_images/master/snapback.png Yes, you clarified it Eve. However, in the literature I post you will never see a statement like "Because Bibile says so...". It is all against dogmas. Actually, it says where the dogmas come from and criticizes dogmas as one of the greatest evils of our times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Thoth, FYI, your replies and welcome in this thread was most likely the reason for me sticking around! style_images/master/snapback.png well thank you Sip - at least somone is giving me (positve) credit - its been rare for me around here of late... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Armen jan, why so bitter? It's just a discussion, plus your input is one of the most valuable ones since your answers are always very profound and serious. I know I joke around a lot, but I hardly mock the topic, it has always fascinated me. It's just that this time I need a brief answer, because that's something I was supposed to provide for an inquiring student. Truce? style_images/master/snapback.png Sorry for the tone Eve jan but I am realy tired of portraying myself as a holy guy that is concerned about other people's thoughts about God. It is all individual... As far as my conribution is concerned I think I have said enough on this. Thanks for the kind words. This does not mean I am angry with you or Sip or Thoth or someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Yes, you clarified it Eve. However, in the literature I post you will never see a statement like "Because Bibile says so...". It is all against dogmas. Actually, it says where the dogmas come from and criticizes dogmas as one of the greatest evils of our times. style_images/master/snapback.png No, no Armen jan... I was simply explaining to you what I meant by begging the question by giving that example. Clearly "Because the Bible says so" is full of glitches and lacks any persuasive power, not even to mention a very primitive and brain dead argument. Your argument for evil defining good was valid, I was just looking for something a bit more encompassing. You have to understand something, my problem is that I am too wordy and often tangle people up in my explanations. I am trying to develop a sense of order in my reasoning, so forgive me if I appeared condescending and confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 (edited) Perhaps it was a pommegrante after all eh? style_images/master/snapback.png Actually I was wrong. First apples were located in Kazakhstan. The Greeks were growing several varieties of apples by the late 300’s BC, and the ancient Romans also grew and loved the fruit. Then there is this: 8,000 B.C.—Nomadic hunter/gatherer societies invent agriculture and begin to "settle" in places throughout the "fertile crescent" from the Nile through the Tigris and Euphrates, the Indus, and Yellow River Valleys. As both trade and military expeditions begin among these earliest civilizations, dessert apples quickly spread from the forests of their origin in the Tien Shan mountains of eastern Kazakstan throughout the "civilized" world. Each settlement seeks to embellish their "paradise" or pleasure grounds with the most tempting apples of the forests. Previously isolated gene pools from some of the 25 distinctly different species of apples found throughout the world are now brought in contact with each other and gene transfer among apple species occurs. Agriculturalists are charmed. Naturalists are alarmed. I guess I have to do more research on apples. By the way does anyone know if Aramaic is a form or Hebrew or are they separate languages? I think I've reached my limit of posting for today, I am off to bed. Jesus, 36 posts in one day how the heck did I manage? Edited September 24, 2004 by anileve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Armen, you misunderstood me and apparently you are getting quite frustrated with my request. style_images/master/snapback.png No, I am getting frustrated from the fact that people sometimes reject something provided by another human being, which otherwise they could have possibly accepted if they had found it themselves. The one who seaks will find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 like my psychology professor once said, "if God exists, i thank Him for what He has put inbetween our ears". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 That's definitely one counter argument. However, one can say that if God created human beings how did he allow such imperfection? What if I told you that God originally created us perfect human beings? And by our own self centered desires became imperfect. After some meditating I came across one argument, which makes more or less sense. God is a good businessman, he created opposing forces to provide competition and ensure harmonious and balanced existence. Everything must have its counterpart to exist, I guess. God didn’t create a opposing force, as a counterpart to exist. God does not have an equal nor an imperfection. If He did then He, then He wouldn’t be God. And about – Everything have an counterpart in order to exist – Do you have a counterpart or do you just exist ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 What if I told you that God originally created us perfect human beings? And by our own self centered desires became imperfect. you mean we became human...how could we be human if we were perfect...this does not compute..and of course - if we were perfect how could we have erred so (seems like a pretty big "oops" eh? Then again it says something for "self centered desires" I imagine... God didn’t create a opposing force, as a counterpart to exist. God does not have an equal nor an imperfection. If He did then He, then He wouldn’t be God. And about – Everything have an counterpart in order to exist – Do you have a counterpart or do you just exist ? style_images/master/snapback.png You contradict yourself here - you say God didn't create an opposing force as/to be a counterpart...but then yousay everything must have a counterpart to exist.....sooo - did God not exist until he created a counterpart...or does god not exist because he has no counterpart? Think about this one a bit - eh... Oh and I just exist (by counterpart you mean "opposite" ...I mean I do consider my wife my "counterpart" in a sense - in a good sense that is...as in partner...though I do occasionally find that we are in opposition on certain things...such as discipling the kids, who gets to drive the BMW - these sorts of things...did I not exist before finding my wife...don' t think so - but certainly has changed (significant aspects of my existance..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 What if I told you that ... Yeah what if you told me/us that....not sure I am automatically convinced...what can I say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 BTW: An interesting fact. You know the whole ordeal about the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden? Well apparently apples were not invented until 1612. The Bible is forged. I was watching a TV program once and they also stated that the fruit was not actually an apple. The fruit was determined to be either a fig or a pomegranate but the western civilization didn’t have a word for fig or pomegranate. But in the Bible the actual name of the fruit is not given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 What if I told you that God originally created us perfect human beings? And by our own self centered desires became imperfect. style_images/master/snapback.png That's considering that god created evil, otherwise how else would we gear towards it? He wouldn't be so omnipotent if he allowed us the power to create such a force which so often consumes humanity and serves as god's most fierce opposition. God didn’t create a opposing force, as a counterpart to exist. God does not have an equal nor an imperfection. If He did then He, then He wouldn’t be God. And about – Everything have an counterpart in order to exist – Do you have a counterpart or do you just exist ? style_images/master/snapback.png Actually due to the counterparts combining together I came into existence. A woman and a man are counterparts, considering that they are opposing forces, they are both needed to continue human existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 I was watching a TV program once and they also stated that the fruit was not actually an apple. The fruit was determined to be either a fig or a pomegranate but the western civilization didn’t have a word for fig or pomegranate. But in the Bible the actual name of the fruit is not given. style_images/master/snapback.png So it is true! Now if you can help me find out when the original fruit was "invented" or when was it morphed into an apple we now cultivate. Winston, you may be right about pomegranate after all. If so, our dear Armenian culture relishes in the source of evil. Tsk tsk... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 So it is true! Now if you can help me find out when the original fruit was "invented" or when was it morphed into an apple we now cultivate. Winston, you may be right about pomegranate after all. If so, our dear Armenian culture relishes in the source of evil. Tsk tsk... style_images/master/snapback.png yes thought so...but let us not equate knowlege (carnal or in general) with evil - as this is the noral of the story - God/the gods [elohim] supposedly wanted us to be without (carnal) knowledge (and perhaps just knowledge/creativity/free will) in general....our "savior" - Enki (depicted as a serpent) - is the being who we should be greatful to for our enlightenment (and your orgasms...)...no - not evil at all...most wonderful & miraculous...and so very human (of course).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Jocko Homo (Booji Boy Version) they tell us that we lost our tails evolving up from little snails i say it's all just wind in sails are we not men? we are DEVO! we're pinheads now we are not whole we're pinheads all jocko homo are we not men? D-E-V-O monkey men all in business suit teachers and critics all dance the poot are we not men? we are DEVO! are we not men? D-E-V-O we must repeat o.k. let's go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 (edited) No World Order 1.1 Composer: Todd Rundgren Let me tell you 'bout the new world order Not the kind to make you run for the border It's a new religion wrapped in a revolution With a proven solution for your mental pollution Cars and gold bars and chains and diamond rings These are the symbols, we want the real things Peace in the soul and a natural insight Things that please the mind and make the body feel right Don't let no one tell you that god ain't got a sense of humor Someone said he's pissed off, but that was just a rumor I know he's laughin' when the preacher starts to scream about How trippin' is evil, and sex is unclean Nature wants your life to go on long and on strong To have children and show them where you went wrong So if your life style leads you into hell or into prison Wake up and listen, this is what you're missing Free will, we can't seem to get our fill We are beggers, we are choosers drunk on a lack of power I believe in understanding, I've got to know where we're landing I'm takin' my survey now, hands up if you're with me Do you want different choices? Can't hear the quiet voices Got to dim all the lights, turn down the volume Put on a little more forgiveness, who's gonna be my witness? If we must endure this trial, someone is bound to touch us Do you want more sex, more comforting A little more foreplay and afterglow, let my people go Everybody wants peace on the earth, children sheltering Calling every man, every woman We're gonna take control of our own bodies Peace breaks out in the battle of the sexes We start to learn what the other one expects is We stay away from what the other one rejects is And have respect for individual perspectives We're gonna break out of this cycle of dependency And liberate each other from a hopeless life of drudgery And face up to the truth as we dispel all of this secrecy And simplify the situation when we learn to speak plainly We're gonna take control of the machinery Bad little actors that chew up the scenery Job number one is gonna be findin' a way That we can rave all night and meditate all day Mankind's strugglin' hard to see the light To hear the voice of the spirit in the night To lay down his heavy burden and pick up his soul power And build a heaven on earth hour by hour by hour Child protection, more careful mate selection Everyone wants to be wanted by a natural father and mother Lookin' for a sense of wonder, don't let your faith go under This is a beautiful world, if we could only give up fighting The answer is surrender, every race, every gender Beat our swords into plowshares on the anvil of a pure heart We gotta have honest answers and the courage to take our chances Opportunity's knockin' loud, give me your attention Edited September 24, 2004 by THOTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Did you have a drink too many? Just joking mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Did you have a drink too many? Just joking mate. style_images/master/snapback.png Funny - I'm always seeing it as I'm at one too few! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anileve Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Jocko Homo (Booji Boy Version) they tell us that we lost our tails evolving up from little snails i say it's all just wind in sails are we not men? we are DEVO! we're pinheads now we are not whole we're pinheads all jocko homo are we not men? D-E-V-O monkey men all in business suit teachers and critics all dance the poot are we not men? we are DEVO! are we not men? D-E-V-O we must repeat o.k. let's go! style_images/master/snapback.png Good stuff! But everytime I would read "DEVO" there would be an automatic echo in my head whispering a rhyme "GEVO." Ok never mind. Well that's for those who believe that evil and good have separate creators. See but that's where I start dissecting things. What if Elohim is really two beings, counterparts, which provide us with characteristics prevalent to both. One being is praised and the other is despised. In order for human nature to justify it's existence it must define what its striving for and fighting against. Otherwise life without struggles would cease to function. And I do believe that Satan is perhaps of female gender and God is of Male. Simply because God is more rigid and jealous and Satan is more playful and flexible. So perhaps we are just actors in the eternal steamy romance between God and Satan. Jeez, I’ve created some serious mythology here. I don't know just some random thoughts. Perhaps some philosophers were right when they associated women with evil but they clearly misunderstood the role and significance of the evil force which must be appreciated much as its counterpart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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