CURIOUS QUISTION

[QRISTINE]

Hi gamavor

 

Your a good poster and letter bold makers. Armenian forum seems like paying you for the generous actions loooooooool I think every body in this chat has a perfect vision so dont worry about making them too dark or bigger.

[Sip]

Fair enough! So I'll be a little serious for a change. I think Harut has a good point and I don't think he was telling you what to do. Of course NO one should tell you what to do.

 

I think Harut was saying that he doesn't think it's possible (or easy) staying pure Armenian outside of Armenia. I have to say, I agree with him a lot on this. Just by the fact that you live in a different country, means you have to abide by their rules ... otherwise, they'll either kick you out or put you in prision. Since not every country has the same rules and regulations as Armenia, you are FORCED to change at least just a bit. Therefore, I really don't think it's possible to stay "pure" Armenian outside of Armenia.

 

HOWEVER, I think you were probably saying more about staying pure in "thought" or in "hearth" or something like that ... well, those all sound great when someone says it, but I don't know how meaningful they are.

 

So I guess the question at hand is, if you think someone can stay pure Armenian outside of Armenia, why or how you think that can be done?

 

On a side note, what does it even mean to be "pure Armenian"?

[THOTH]

Qristine - I repeat my question: Why would a "pure" Armenian ever bother to learn English?

 

This is essentially the same issue as Sip raises. First there is no such thing as "pure" - and your predecessors very likely adopted many "ways" of the cultures/nations where they lived. So what it measn to be Armenian is not just one thing. I constantly come accross this - different traditions/food etc from Armenians from different places.

 

Perhaps it is your grammer theat needs improving. I think you are perhaps not being clear about what you mean is "pure" Armenian. Maybe you should try again.

[Guest Fadi]

quote:

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On a side note, what does it even mean to be "pure Armenian"?

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HEY !!! I'm the one that is supposed to ask such questions, not you. :-)

[Outdoorgirl]

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Dear Qristine, Welcome to HyeForum.

 

Are we kidding ourselves or do we think that we can continue to be Armenians in the US or Australia or Canada or any other country but Armenia. Maybe we should ask it is it worth all the sacrifices to continue to be an Armenian or marry and an Armenian. I like Sip think it does not matter and over the long run(maybe 100 years) the only people who will be known as Armenians will be the people who live in Armenia, rest of us will be Americans(for those of us in the US) and only when someone asks where out great great grandparents are from we will say Armenian.

_________________________________________________

Hi everybody out there. Seems like interracial marriage is a hot topic for discussions nowadays and not only for Armenians. I partly share Azat's point of view on this matter. Culture matters more in this case than the nationality itself. That’s the reason I think that Armenians who’ve immigrated to a foreign country don’t usually marry foreigners, but their children who’re raised in a foreign culture have a lot more chances to get married to a foreigner (from generation to generation the probability of marrying a foreigner is greater). I bet that Armenian from Armenia who is under the influence of Russian culture and the Armenian from US who is under influence of American culture has the same chances of a “happy” marriage as an Armenian-American with a so called “ American” from any origin. Of course, my point can be false for

“ Glendale” city or any place were Armenians are grouped together. Don’t take it too close to your heart. I don’t say the ones who don’t live in Armenia are less armenian. . As I think that notion “ less Armenian” doesn’t exist. It’s just the reality facing the immigrants. Have a nice day and Marry the ones whom you love.

[QRISTINE]

clear definition who Armenians are.

 

We are few but we are called Armenians

We do not put ourselves above anyone

Simply we also admit that we, only we have Mount Ararat

And that it is right here on the clear Sevan

that the sky could make its exact duplicate

Simply David has indeed fought right here

Simply the Narek was written right here

Simply we know how to build from the rock, a monastery

How to make fish from stone, how to make man from clay

To learn to become the student of the beautiful,

the kind, the noble, and the good

 

We are few, but we are called Armenians

We do not put ourselves above anyone

Simply our fortune has just been so different

Simply we have just shed too much blood

Simply in our lives of centuries long

When we were many and when we were strong

Even then we did not oppress any nation

See, centuries have come and centuries have passed

Yet over no one have we become tyrants

If we have enslaved, only with our eyes

And if we have ruled, only with our books

If we have prevailed, only with our talents

And if we have ever oppressed,

it has only been with our wounds

 

Simply with us death had fallen in love

Yet we willingly did not give ourselves

And when we were forced to leave our own land

Where ever we reached, where ever we went

Everywhere we left indelible trace

We have joined efforts for everyone, always

We plowed everywhere, we built bridges, we tied arches

We plowed everywhere and we brought forth crops

We gave everyone mind, proverbs, and songs

Another words we defended them from spiritual coldness

Every where we left our eyes reflection

A peace of our soul and a sacrament from the heart itself

 

We are few, truly, but we are Armenians

And by being few we do not succumb

Because it is better to be few in life, then to control life by being many

Because it is better rather to be few, then to be masters by being many

Because it is better to be few, then to be swindlers

We are few, yes, but we are Armenians

And we know how to sigh from yet unhealed wounds

But with a new juice we rejoice and we cheer

We know how to thrust into the foe's side

And how to lend a helping hand to our friend

How to repay goodness which was done to us

by compensating for each one by ten

And the benefit of it just in the sun

We vote with our lives, not only with our hands

Yet if they desire to rule us with force

We know how to smoke and how to quench their fire

And if it is needed to disperse darkness

we can turn into ashes like burning candles

And we know as well how to make love with lust

And we do this always by respecting others

See we do not put ourselves above anyone,

but we know ourselves We are called Armenians

And why should we not feel pride about that

We are, We shall be, and become many

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by QRISTINE:

clear definition who Armenians are.

 

We are few but we are called Armenians

We do not put ourselves above anyone

---

Seems to me that you are continually putting Armenians above others...are you sure that you are Armenian?

[QRISTINE]

Hi thoth

 

My suggestion will be to you to talk to Paruir Sevak and find out the clear point of this poetry.

[THOTH]

But Qristine - it is you who are telling us that this poem tells us all what a clear definition of an Armenian is. (I really dont think that it does BTW) But if you believe that it does then it is you who must measure up to this standard. Meanwhile you are advocating being a "pure" Armenian and marrying only Armenian and such. Well - this clearly is putting Armenians above others - exactly contrary to your simultanious claim of what it is to be Armenian. I must say that every post of yours just leaves me more confused.

 

Oh and BTW - Mt Ararat is (only) in Turkey and not Armenia (though perhaps this poem was written long ago - somehow I think not). And is this implying that Turks are somehow Armenian or Armenian's Turks?! I know that there are many who claim this. Are you one of these? Must we maintain our Turkish cultural elements...? Again I am confused. I cannot think that this poem - as nice as it is - really truly presents an accurate (clear) picture of what an Armenian is. And it doesn't mention the USA at all - can one be an Armenian and live in the USA? Where does it say this in the poem? Is there a Lake Seven in LA - is this where the duplicate resides?

 

Look - all this is nice...but does us little good in answering either your intitial question about marriage or mine about the definition of an Armenian. I'm still quite unclear about your ideas or position.

[gamavor]

It is my firm believe that teachers should be allowed to get retirement after no more than 5 years practice as teachers.

 

PS: No bad blood, just curious to know how you look like:-)

[Varduhi]

Hi

 

Thoth this question is for you....... ARE YOU AN ARMENIAN? and please dont change the topic and YES or NO will do it.

 

take care.

[Varduhi]

Domino

first of all i DID NOT ask you for your thoughts on this i asked THOTH and if you think your same as THOTH then i apologize. Next time i will write three times so you know who i am talking to.

 

And i meant ethnicity Armenians, and as you know in this forum mojority of Armenians were born out side of Armenia, so please dont play games with me.

 

May peace prevail on Earth....

 

Take care

[Guest Fadi]

Vardui, respect the members of this forum, and you will be respected.

 

First of all, when you write something in an open forum, you give the right to everyone to answer, if you want to ask a question to one member in particular, and think that no one should answer, then you just have to send this person a PM.

 

Furthermore, my post was not an answer to a question you asked Thoth, but rather a correction of your wrong definition of what a nation is.

 

A nation has two definition, first where you are born, when you fill a paper, when you read "What nationality you are" it suppose where you are born, then as well it could mean your citizenship.

 

Nation is about a country and its people, the diasporan Armenians are not a nation, they are more a people, or a group of people, they are an "orgine" an "ethnicity."

[Azat]

Thoth and Sip,

I am sorry you guys did not like the poem by Sevak. There is alot of symbolism in it. If I am not mistaken he wrote the poem in the 60s(not too old) I think he died in 1971 at the age of 56 of a car accident. He was one of the giants of Armenian literature.

 

Sulamita has written many of his poetry for you guys to read here:

/cgi-bin/forum/ultim...c;f=21;t=000002

 

Qristine, I think why people are confused(or I should say they are pretending to be confused) is because you are not defining what an Armenian is. You list poetry and say "pure Armenians" but you do not define what you are trying to say. I would tell you that to be good Armenian one does not have to be born in Armenia, one does not have to follow our church, nor does one have to marry an Armenian. 2 examples for you to consider are Kirk Krikorian and Charles Aznavour. Neither one followed those the things I listed yet majority of Armenians are proud when they talk about either and will say that they are great Armenians, they are real Armenians.

 

Varduhi, I think everyone here is proud like Qristine to be an Armenian or else why would they spend time here. Why would they take time away from life, family, work to contribute to this Armenian forum.

 

Movses, it is true that Armenians in certain parts of Iran and other countries did not assimilate, however you have to remember that they were not open to that many nationalities at those times and majority of their neighbors(Iranians) were muslim(one of the main reasons why they did not marry much out of the race)

[Sip]

Actually, I like that poem a LOT! It's very nicely written. I just don't think it is a good example of defining what an Armenian is! I think it's a great example of how hard-core "bleeding heart" Armenians talk and think about "Armenianness".

 

However, I necessarily don't share Sevag's feelings, although I think it's an awesome poem (even in English) and I know what he is trying to say.

 

My whole point above was that we should recognize that Sevag is putting Armenians WAAAY above everyone else with that poem even though he keeps saying he is not.

 

[ November 27, 2002, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[QRISTINE]

Hi dear Varduhi

 

Thank you for your messages I am very appriciated also thank you all FOR YOUR COLD AND WARM RESPONSES. I am through with this question I realized none of us can make each other to love something that they dont have feelings for. For me is Armenians like my family members and specially when comes to the topic where what I think about marring someone out of your nationality I WOULD SAY BE ARMENIAN WHEREWER YOU ARE.I respect other nationalities as well but in this case I would prefer marring somenoe who shares my culture, religion and costoms.

 

Good bye

[Harut]

Qristine, nobody is "otaramol" here. i don't sleep and dream about marrying a non-Armanian. it's fine that you want to marry an Armenian. and many others do too. and nobody is saying anything bad about them.

 

the thing and couses disagreements with you is that you want to marry an Armenian to keep your Armenian "purity", a non-existant idea.

 

i would probably never marry a non-Armenian either. but not because i want to remain "pure" Armanian, but because of the reasons i mentioned at the beginning of the thread.

 

==============

as i think about it a little long, it becomes more clear that i would never marry a non-Armanian. you see, i don't want to live whole my life with dictionary in one hand and a book about how to have sex with non-Armanian in the other.

[THOTH]

OK - what I think:

 

I think Armenians and being an Armenian are very special things - we are a unique people with a wonderful history, culture and we are and have been an amazing people (lack of noteworthy conquests aside). But I don't think that one can define that being "Armenian" is any one thing - that one has to be and/or act certain ways to be one. There are and for a long time now have been a tremendous number of difference among Armenians who have lived within various other cultures. Yet we have some common characteristics, customs and to some degree a shared history and identification with the Armenian "nation" (in this case nationality meaning ethnicity and common cultural elements). I also think people of other cultures deserve respect and I am against looking down on anyone or considering any other people lesser or such just because they are odar or different.

 

I like the poem BTW - its nice...but it has its limits and contradictions. As such things are - it reflects (only) an aspect of the truth. Considered in context I think it is worthwhile. I would never use it as Qristine did however.

 

I have sympathy and respect for those Armenians trying to maintain aspects of their (to some degree our) traditional culture in a "foreign"/adopted land - just the same I am a realist. And I think one must be open to the idea that not all will share the desire to maintain "purity" or what have you - and these people are making the right choices for themselves as well and should not be villainized. It is entirely understandable for someone to choose to adopt some or all of the culture where they live to fit in/get ahead/succeed or what have you. I am a believer in the melting pot concept of America as well (but I do not think that aspects of ethnic culture must be cleansed - I am wishful for these to continue as I think all are enriched by such - and Armenian culture specifically has a lot going for it I think). There are aspects of traditional cultures (including Armenian) that don't appeal to me - specifically making women second class citizens and all the baggage associated with that (like arranged marriages, different standards for men & women regarding promiscuity & such, etc).

 

You must also realize that cultures never stand still. From an individuals perspective they might appear to - but this is not so. They are always changing and adapting. The rate of change occurring now is more rapid for everyone then it has ever been before - and this stresses ever culture and everyone - some more then others. But it is impossible to maintain the same world view when technology literally changes the world around us.

 

I recently heard something to the effect that the amount of change in the (culture/technology of the) world between 2000? BC and 1800? AD (don't remember exact dates used here) was roughly the same as that which occurred between 1800 and 1900, between 1900 and 1930, 1930 and 1945, 1945 and 1960, 1960 and 1965, 1965 and 1967...and such (I'll need to check the exact dates used - but you get the idea)...Thus all of us are under enormous cultural pressures as never before experienced. Additionally we are a global culture now - few are in isolation. So it is false to think that Armenian culture - even in Armenia - will remain static...

 

So just some thoughts. And of course these are my opinions nothing more. Sorry if I was short or impolite to anyone - didn't mean to be - but perhaps I have been impatient when I detect certain modes of thinking that I find are incomplete...not necessarily wrong - just not understanding (in my mind) the bigger picture.

[Sip]

 

Harut es incher es asum? Do non-Armenians do it differently than Armenians? Please enlighten me!!!

[Harut]

sorry Sip, it's all the same thing.

 

i'm in college right now.

while i was typing that post of my, a hot non-Armenian girl passed by me, and i accidentally wrote that.

 

ok, i must go now while she's still around.

[hyebruin]

I think it's all about personal choice...some of us choose to stay armenian while others do not really care either way... although! if you're going to have kids and you want them to grow up armenian chances are better that they'll retain some of the traditional 'armenianness' (dare I say!) if you marry an armenian....Actually! if you're not born with an armenian spirit there is nothing you can really do about it! It really really is all about choice...I go to school where there are no armenians and plenty of gorgeous looking guys!...I always remind myself that in the end I do want to marry an armenian...so I can be friends with these guys, ...the good part comes when I know that going back home to l.a. I'm sure in the future there will be a DECENT! armenian guy who will be openminded and accepting of the world we live in... I never felt stronger as an armenian now that I live away from armenians...this is really sweet though, I don't want to learn how it feels like to kiss an 'odar' though I know it can't be all that different! duh!!!...and besides it won't be the same translating Tata's lyrics!!

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Varduhi:

Hi

 

Thoth this question is for you....... ARE YOU AN ARMENIAN? and please dont change the topic and YES or NO will do it.

 

take care.

---

yes

[Sip]

Well, although I may be able to build "monestaries out of rock" and learn to become "student of the beautiful", I really don't think I can "make fish out of stone" and I certainly can't "make man out of clay" ... so once again I am starting to doubt that I am Armenian.

 

In addition to sending mixed messages (actually, I think the message is quite clear despite the fact that he keeps repeating "We do not put ourselves above anyone", it's obvious to me that the whole thing is saying quite the opposite) ... anyway ... I think the conclusion is quite interesting:

 

and therefore become life controlling masters? Thoth, I agree ... that is ONE CONFUSING POEM!!!

 

[ November 27, 2002, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[THOTH]

Sip -

 

Perhaps it has been inspired by the Bible.

[Sip]

Hmmmm ... that man "out of clay" does sound biblical. The "fish from stone" also sounds like something Jesus could do. So I guess those lines bring "Armenians" up to the level of God and Jesus in some sense. Boy, now I know there is NO way I am Armenian