A Questtion to Circassian!

[Guest]

you are a Turk or a Circassian, just curious to know, no other intentions!

[Guest]

I am a british/turkish circassian .

 

My loyalties lies with all 3 cultures & people's interests.

 

Difficult task , I admit.

[Guest]

Thank you from your response.

 

PS> You see the Turkicspeaking Anatolians as "Turks" ? You know who were the Turks? Anatolians are probably more related to the Armenians, Circassians, Kurds and Greeks than to the Turks. It is ironical but through.

[Guest]

I agree on a biological level.

 

one difference ; turkishness is not about exclusiveness - not as far as i can understand - it is rather inclusive.

 

Modern definition of being a turk has nothing to with your race & religion.

 

It was a pleasure to reply , thank you for asking.

[Guest]

I don't get your point about inclusiveness and exclusiveness.

[Guest]

Tornado

 

Nationality is a dead concept and human kind don't really need it to progress anymore, if anything it has become a drag to the advancement & social evolution of human kind.

 

Modern definition of turkishness - at least on paper - does not discriminate against any particular ethnic & religious group - and that is much better then many other countries on this planet.

 

It might seem like a contradiction in terms to say that turkey is for turks then allow people to preserve their ethnicity among family & friend level but ; there we are .

 

Turkish parliement is as multicultural as it can be - admittedly we need armenian & greek origin MP's in politics as well - but as it stands parliement of turkey is made of turks,kurds,laz,circassian and all the other minority ethnic non-turks.

 

Kurdish MP's speak their language between them , so does the circassians , so does some of the laz MP's.

 

In fact nobody is ashamed of their ethnicity but rather proud of it.

 

I would like to see armenian turks getting into parliement & finding a more acceptable way to facilitate dialog between diasporean armenians & armenia proper.

 

Inclusiveness means all those MP's can have equally strong claim to turkishness & their own ethnicity thus obtaining most optimum use of their assets to serve their people.

[MJ]

Dialogs between two countries have to be facilitated by the corresponding Ministries of Foreign Affairs, first, not by the parliamentarians.

[Guest]

dialog needs to be started internally within turkish parliement via the contribution of all concerned.

 

It's as much of an internal problem as it is an external one.

 

As the situation dictates there is not an ounce of trust either side.

Without overcoming that problem neither side won't play ball.

[MJ]

So how can we, being concerned, contribute to that dialog from the outside?

[Guest]

Dear Circassian it is good that a country treats it's citizens as equal but destroyng the indigenous cultures and make an imaginary Turkish identity for all on a non-voluntary basis is wrong.

[THOTH]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tornado:
Dear Circassian it is good that a country treats it's citizens as equal but destroyng the indigenous cultures and make an imaginary Turkish identity for all on a non-voluntary basis is wrong.

---

First - I am not so sure everyone is treated as equal. While certain minorities have risen to prominent positions I am led to understand that there is still a great deal of prejudice against those who are obviously not fully "Turk" by look/affiliation (or in some cases those who are not of clear Muslim background - as evidenced by name). Like many places such discrimination is often subtle or unsaid - but occurs just the same.

Likewise, in this day and age of cultural sensitivity, I think we can agree that to force cultural assimilation - through law (forbidding use of language, private schools, affiliation, limits on political/cultural expression etc) or through just imposing an identity - is in truth both wrong and unadvisable. However, in hindsight, it is clear that what was accomplished by Ataturk - at least in the short term (and even lasting until today) was at least in part based on such practice. While suppressing minority or ethnic aspiration is distasteful - I agree - it was reactive to the (by then failed) Ottoman approach - and was also perhaps more palatable then the Pan-Turanism of the Young Turks/CUP. Ataturk built a nation and consolidated it from the ashes of defeat (and shame). Though we can criticize now - and (as Armenians have some legitimate sour grapes regarding Ataturk's finishing the job of the CUP and squashing what was left and avoiding responsibility for such - etc) - bottom line is that what Ataturk accomplished was very impressive for the time and was quite an accomplishment. Unfortunately the negative aspects of the legacy - regarding minorities, supremacy of national myth (with its ultra paranoid defensiveness) and suppression of pluralism (to some extent) live on today - and for Turkey to move ahead - it is time for some fundamental change. IMO.

By the way Tornado - what is your ethnic and national affiliation - just curious (I thought I had pegged you - but now I'm not so sure). I am and American of 1/2 Armenian descent BTW.

[ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
So how can we, being concerned, contribute to that dialog from the outside?

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Help me figure out how to facilitate trust on both sides.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tornado:
Dear Circassian it is good that a country treats it's citizens as equal but destroyng the indigenous cultures and make an imaginary Turkish identity for all on a non-voluntary basis is wrong.

---

Dear Tornado

I agree what you are summoning up there with one exemption.
Sometimes End Result will justify the course of action.

People of Anatolia for the first time since the establishment of ottomans have had an almost war free century.

That is no mean achievement for a young country & all it's people whom had ancestors that contiunally engaged in a war for centuries.

Civil Turkey is what needed & it's still in the making.

[Guest]

Karine

 

I did not realise the prospect of going home made you soo happy.

Sorry to disappoint you , we do have the intention of bettering the country for the benefit of all concerned.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by THOTH:
First - I am not so sure everyone is treated as equal. While certain minorities have risen to prominent positions I am led to understand that there is still a great deal of prejudice against those who are obviously not fully "Turk" by look/affiliation (or in some cases those who are not of clear Muslim background - as evidenced by name). Like many places such discrimination is often subtle or unsaid - but occurs just the same.

---

Agreed on most of the points , discrimination in this day and age is not acceptable.However in practise since every ethnic group have their power base & their own mechanism to deploy nepotims within the power structure.This does amount to discrimination , albeit unintentional one.

quote:

---

Likewise, in this day and age of cultural sensitivity, I think we can agree that to force cultural assimilation - through law (forbidding use of language, private schools, affiliation, limits on political/cultural expression etc) or through just imposing an identity - is in truth both wrong and unadvisable.

---

Totally agreed.

quote:

---

However, in hindsight, it is clear that what was accomplished by Ataturk - at least in the short term (and even lasting until today) was at least in part based on such practice. While suppressing minority or ethnic aspiration is distasteful - I agree - it was reactive to the (by then failed) Ottoman approach - and was also perhaps more palatable then the Pan-Turanism of the Young Turks/CUP. Ataturk built a nation and consolidated it from the ashes of defeat (and shame). Though we can criticize now - and (as Armenians have some legitimate sour grapes regarding Ataturk's finishing the job of the CUP and squashing what was left and avoiding responsibility for such - etc) - bottom line is that what Ataturk accomplished was very impressive for the time and was quite an accomplishment. Unfortunately the negative aspects of the legacy - regarding minorities, supremacy of national myth (with its ultra paranoid defensiveness) and suppression of pluralism (to some extent) live on today - and for Turkey to move ahead - it is time for some fundamental change. IMO.

---

Turkey will move forward & it will happen regardless of internal dynamics of the country.

Thank you for your efforts to communicate your views , well appreciated.

[THOTH]

Circassian. I am glad that you agree with my posting/views (in this case). Obviously I hold some views perhaps untypical of Armenians at large - regarding certain aspects of Turkey (and perhaps Turks). Are you able to be equally bold/innovative/independent in regards to the status quo on your “side”? After all – you are claiming to wish a dialogue and are for peace and reconciliation…can this occur without some give and take…without some movement on both sides…admissions….understanding…forgiveness…etc? I certainly think that Armenians need to listen to what various Turks are claiming in regards to the Genocide (though certainly we cannot accept the portions which are obviously poorly veiled propaganda), and we must also adjust our rhetoric to not further corner Turks – but allow them to move toward us.

 

That being the case I still must insist that you are incorrect regarding your claims of lack of evidence of a Genocide (perpetuated by Turks) against Armenians. This evidence is overwhelming (to disagree is IMO an admission of your lack of knowledge or of your a priori conclusions regardless of facts). The evidence exists from all sides - for instance much damning evidence has been produced by Turkey's (Ottoman's) own allies in WWI - the Germans (and to a lesser extent from the Austrians) and of course from the Turks themselves. Immediately after the war there were trials conducted by the Ottoman government where the majority of the key national and a number of regional Young Turk party members were convicted and (most were) sentenced to death for precisely the crime of genocide against the Armenians (and theft of their property which you also seem to discount). Of course there is mountains of eyewitness testimony as well as the fact that in Anatolia the Armenian nation and Armenians are no more - and every Armenian family, including my own, has its story of (organized) death marches, massacres and the like. And the pattern of such accross Anatolia in 1915 is clear. It was centrally directed and ruthlessly carried out. There can be no doubt whatsoever that the intent was the annihilation/complete destruction of the Armenians (by means of killing through massacre and starvation) and that this plan was pre-meditated and pursued with vigor. All evidence confirms this as clear as the truth of my saying that it is so.

 

Additionally I should mention that the term "Genocide" was first coined/used to describe the massacre of Armenians and destruction of their "nation" at the hand of the Ottoman Turks during this period. Thus the definition of the word was de facto a description of what was observed to be occurring to the Armenians. Does it not strike you then as odd that one might claim that the organized massacres and complete uprooting of Armenians in Anatolia in WWI are not Genocide? - when the word was invented to describe just these events and their impact on a people? You seem like an educated fellow - perhaps the logic of this is within your grasp. Please think on it a bit...if you really must.

 

Concerning your point that Turkey will move foreword regardless of the internal dynamics - I could not disagree more. If internal dynamics do not change Turkey will either stagnate and/or disintegrate (and likely turn fundamentalist). So - with that being the case - it is up to (educated and increasingly aware) Turks such as yourself to initiate change of the type that will allow your nation to take the next step. Obviously EU membership is key to this - if you think not....then I hope you are in good with your Mullah...etc. Even if not EU membership - it is the type of reform called for by EU that must occur to force your nation to modernize - (and that there is so much resistance to this is telling...IMO). Additionally - I think a part of this maturation and advancement as a nation/people is historical honesty...(you figure it out).

 

So two questions (plus some extra credit] for you -

 

1) Can/will Turkey progress while maintaining Kemalism (unmodified) as its central philosophical/political/social core? (and for extra credit - can Turkey progress with the military's role unchanged (and the continued significant/accepted presence of [your buddies] the MHP/gray wolves?)

 

2) Can/will Turkey progress (in the world - as a modern nation and to ever emerge out of its relative backwater status) without coming to terms with the shameful deeds of its past (primarily regarding the wholesale destruction of a nation within its midst - the Armenians (and similar treatment of the other Christian minorities) - whether or not you accept the semantic of "Genocide")? Food for thought on #2 - everyone knows you guys (CUP lead Ottoman Empire) did it, the Armenians will never forget and will never let the world forget (and its all in the archives of the West anyway silly...every necessary fact of documentation...more than enough really), and your nation is not fooling anyone (but only your own people)...think about it....)

 

I look foreword to your answers....and commentary.

 

[ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

[Guest]

Did you ever notice that when a Turkish man or Woman loses a debate, they always run and get some more wolves with hand axes to bash heads and later remove them! HAHAHAHAHA, just kidding!! But please do check this out:Greek heads being bashed by Turks

[Guest]

Oops, I almost forgot the live actual video:

Live barbarism video

[Karine]

Halleluja Turkey!!!The world should take democratic and free-turkey as a role-model to built a similiar strong multicultural state. Amen, Armenians why don´t we go back to turkey? They´d be happy to have us in the parlament.

[Guest]

Circassian how you can say that the Ottomans and thereafter republicans brought peace to Anatolia, I will make you notice that all your trouble began at the period of Sultan Abdulhamit and the young Turks, this is the period that the European nationalists idea were immitated by the polititians and the governement began a suppressive discourse, since then the Armenians, Assyrians, Zoroastrian Kurds, Greeks and even moslem greeks, moslem Kurds, And Laz etc... were regarded as second grade citizens and their right was violated.

 

You say Turkey will improve regardless of internal conflict? Well it only seems so, because the Zionist lobby in USA and Israel have taken the saide as benevolents and protector of Turkey as their allies in the Middle East and Balkan, but don't think that this will last for ever! They will let you down when you are no more productive, as they did to Turkey, regarding the issu of the Turkish influence in Central Asia and Caucasus.

[Guest]

quote:

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By the way Tornado - what is your ethnic and national affiliation - just curious (I thought I had pegged you - but now I'm not so sure). I am and American of 1/2 Armenian descent BTW.

[ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ][/QB]

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I am just a human being whois stubborn enough to speak the truth, even the untruth is dictatorizing us in the Radio/TV, newspapers and internet.

[Guest]

quote:

---

Originally posted by THOTH:
Circassian. I am glad that you agree with my posting/views (in this case). Obviously I hold some views perhaps untypical of Armenians at large - regarding certain aspects of Turkey (and perhaps Turks). Are you able to be equally bold/innovative/independent in regards to the status quo on your “side”? After all – you are claiming to wish a dialogue and are for peace and reconciliation…can this occur without some give and take…without some movement on both sides…admissions….understanding…forgiveness…etc? I certainly think that Armenians need to listen to what various Turks are claiming in regards to the Genocide (though certainly we cannot accept the portions which are obviously poorly veiled propaganda), and we must also adjust our rhetoric to not further corner Turks – but allow them to move toward us.

---

This is more of a balanced view of how to progress.Yes you are correct that I am seeking a dialog - so far you are the only one who is engaging.

quote:

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That being the case I still must insist that you are incorrect regarding your claims of lack of evidence of a Genocide (perpetuated by Turks) against Armenians. This evidence is overwhelming (to disagree is IMO an admission of your lack of knowledge or of your a priori conclusions regardless of facts). The evidence exists from all sides - for instance much damning evidence has been produced by Turkey's (Ottoman's) own allies in WWI - the Germans (and to a lesser extent from the Austrians) and of course from the Turks themselves. Immediately after the war there were trials conducted by the Ottoman government where the majority of the key national and a number of regional Young Turk party members were convicted and (most were) sentenced to death for precisely the crime of genocide against the Armenians (and theft of their property which you also seem to discount). Of course there is mountains of eyewitness testimony as well as the fact that in Anatolia the Armenian nation and Armenians are no more - and every Armenian family, including my own, has its story of (organized) death marches, massacres and the like. And the pattern of such accross Anatolia in 1915 is clear. It was centrally directed and ruthlessly carried out. There can be no doubt whatsoever that the intent was the annihilation/complete destruction of the Armenians (by means of killing through massacre and starvation) and that this plan was pre-meditated and pursued with vigor. All evidence confirms this as clear as the truth of my saying that it is so.

---

Everything that has happened your family has also happened to mine too.The difference is that I am not going round the world & telling everyone how bad the russians are.
Planned extermination & forced re-location & murders of my people still is carried out by russians. I don't know how some armenians on this forum bypass the suffering of group of people not far from yerivan and still insists that they have the moral upperhand.LOL

quote:

---

Additionally I should mention that the term "Genocide" was first coined/used to describe the massacre of Armenians and destruction of their "nation" at the hand of the Ottoman Turks during this period. Thus the definition of the word was de facto a description of what was observed to be occurring to the Armenians. Does it not strike you then as odd that one might claim that the organized massacres and complete uprooting of Armenians in Anatolia in WWI are not Genocide? - when the word was invented to describe just these events and their impact on a people? You seem like an educated fellow - perhaps the logic of this is within your grasp. Please think on it a bit...if you really must.

---

I did thought about this for last 3 days.
I asked myself whether it is the "Right" think to do or not.
If we are going to strive for a better world for all concerned , then can we start calling all the similar events before & after armenians "Genocide". That would be the only pre-condition that I would have before progressing further.

All I am asking you to be not so selective in your approach to human suffering - you are only alienating others like yourselves.

quote:

---

Concerning your point that Turkey will move foreword regardless of the internal dynamics - I could not disagree more. If internal dynamics do not change Turkey will either stagnate and/or disintegrate (and likely turn fundamentalist). So - with that being the case - it is up to (educated and increasingly aware) Turks such as yourself to initiate change of the type that will allow your nation to take the next step. Obviously EU membership is key to this - if you think not....then I hope you are in good with your Mullah...etc. Even if not EU membership - it is the type of reform called for by EU that must occur to force your nation to modernize - (and that there is so much resistance to this is telling...IMO). Additionally - I think a part of this maturation and advancement as a nation/people is historical honesty...(you figure it out).

---

I would have to disagree with you on the importance of EU membership for turkey.
If as you say the USA drop's turkey because of national interest then we would find another way to exist , we always do , I believe China has a sizeable turkish minority & they would be very happy to help us out against those who wants to see turks
confined to middle of anatolia & surrounded by armenian & kurdish & greek & russian rebuclic-lets. IMHO that is the biggest dream that has ever been sold to yourselves.

quote:

---

So two questions (plus some extra credit] for you -

1) Can/will Turkey progress while maintaining Kemalism (unmodified) as its central philosophical/political/social core? (and for extra credit - can Turkey progress with the military's role unchanged (and the continued significant/accepted presence of [your buddies] the MHP/gray wolves?)

---

As long as the russians are implementing their military policy in relation to turks i.e don't leave them(turks) in peace , always make sure there is some trouble with one of the minorities( usually turks & kurds)
- then I really don't see how this situation is going to change.
If I were you , I would not really believe the myth of Kemalism - no such a thing actually exists in the mind of ordinary turks , it's usually turkey's critics who coins the phrase kemalism - not us.
One more thing ; without the participation of " My Buddies" peace between our countries is not quite achievable. I guess I would be representing the mild non-military side of grey-wolves.
Without the legacy of Ataturk , the reigion would of been even more bloodied IMHO.

quote:

---

2) Can/will Turkey progress (in the world - as a modern nation and to ever emerge out of its relative backwater status) without coming to terms with the shameful deeds of its past (primarily regarding the wholesale destruction of a nation within its midst - the Armenians (and similar treatment of the other Christian minorities) - whether or not you accept the semantic of "Genocide")? Food for thought on #2 - everyone knows you guys (CUP lead Ottoman Empire) did it, the Armenians will never forget and will never let the world forget (and its all in the archives of the West anyway silly...every necessary fact of documentation...more than enough really), and your nation is not fooling anyone (but only your own people)...think about it....)

I look foreword to your answers....and commentary.

[ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: THOTH ]

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as far as the semantics concerned ; I can tell you the turks are not going to recognise the "G" word even if takes an eternity & if any one really thinks that the EU money is going to achieve this - then think again please beacuse your calculations are not correct.
I don't think diasporean armenians really understand the modern turks at all.
As for the documentation of attrocities ; you mainly have newspaper reports that state how evil the Turks were.

Considering that these all of these reports were compiled by christians ;
I guess you can see why they are not "Credible" evidence in the eyes of the muslim world which does not seem to count in armenian court somehow.


What matters is how we are going to go further.
Recognition of what you are asking is not going to happen.
if you are saying that the armenians will never shift their stand in relation this claim ; then you are right there is no hope for peacefull co-existence .

[Berj]

After reading this last posting...

If the ideas expressed above one day become an agenda in Turkish foreign policy, I want our (Armenia) border with Turkey closed down for an uncertain future. And the Georgian one as well...

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Berj:
After reading this last posting...
If the ideas expressed above one day become an agenda in Turkish foreign policy, I want our (Armenia) border with Turkey closed down for an uncertain future. And the Georgian one as well...

---

I don't see any turkish people lining up to your ideals & policies.
Unspeakable as it might be for you ; time to re-consider your approach is coming fast.
Pragmatic & Realistic solutions do have a chance of being implemented .
Turkish foreign policy does not favour armenian proper at the moment & if it goes like this ; I don't think you'll have to wait long for border to be sealed from turkish side too.

[raffiaharonian]

Dear Circasian,

 

What is the meaning of GreyWolf ?

Please enlighten us on this issue.