A Questtion to Circassian!

[ceyhun]

I thank all who posted wellcome messages to me.

Circassion says modern definition of "Turk" includes all people of Turkey regardless of their religions and ethnicities.

When did this modern definition start?

With the coming of Ataturk and Kemalism?

If so, then why did Ataturk start the programme of "Vatandas Turkce konus" (citizen, speak Turkish)? You are half Circassian, ironically there were Circassian villages in the Central Anatolia whose inhabitants were speaking Circassian. Now almost none is speaking Circassian. So, is assimilation of languages by Turkish what you call inclusiveness of Turkishness?

[Guest]

Ceyhun

while the turkish government were implementing " Vatandas Turkce Konus" campaign- it was a circassian called

Fuat Doga who was in charge of MIT.

 

I have not learnt how to speak turkish proper until I went to school i.e my mum & dad always spoke circassian between them.

 

i am going to answer you with a proverb;

Sapla samani birbirine karistirma.

 

The concept of inclusiveness was always there - that is how all those non-turks have repeatedly made to the top within ottoman/turkish society for the most of last milennia.

If you were not brainwashed this much - you would know that the inclusiveness has always been a core policy of any turkic expansionist movement.

 

History is inundated with indivisuals who have been rejects of western emperialism

only to have find a welcoming people in Constantinapolis.

 

I am afraid you are looking at the trees but are not able to see the forest.

 

You may try to re-focus your orientation with a pinch of transhumanism & Post millenial thought process.

 

that would be helpfull to all concerned.

[ThornyRose]

Mehmet, which one of your parents was British?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by raffiaharonian:
Dear Circasian,

What is the meaning of GreyWolf ?
Please enlighten us on this issue.

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Raffi

I would not presume to bore you with details.
Suffice to say that the wolf in question is representation of nomadic independence.

Greywolf movement is really a reactionary politics in action for the last 50 odd years.

In a way being a greywolf does assure those who feel threatened by declarations of hostility(drive the turk back to central asia) & unacceptance of turk's lawfull & rightfull existence in anatolia.

By the way , greywolf's have actually helped
to fight against communist subversion & infiltration in turkey until the wall came down.
So in a way one could also regard them as freedom fighters on the side of democracy & capitalism against communism.

You may also regard them as bunch of blood thirsty killers out to get anyone whom they dislike.

You may determine what we are according to your own interpretations.

Ironically , in Uzbekhistan & Turkmenistan i.e to of the most oppressed people's within russia , greywolf movement is very much alive & helping locals to get a voice of opposition.

Putin & Karimov are putting every decent human in jail in uzbekhistan under the pretext of " Islamic fanatisism ".

Planting of drugs , leaflets & weapons is so common by the special forces ( read moscow )
most muslim men resort to sewing their pockets so the police can not have the chance of planting anything on them.

Greywolves are going to upset those russian plans some what.

I want to be able to talk to an uzbek & tacik & kazakh & kirghis and turkmen without IVAN telling me that they are NOT REALLY TURKS.

Circassians are also a component of this landscape as much as armenians are.
All the way to china & bit more is actually turkish & if the conditions are right , armenians are there with the rest of us , what's the difference if IVAN stay's at home.


Thank you for your interest.

[ May 28, 2001: Message edited by: circassian ]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thorny Rose:
Mehmet, which one of your parents was British?

---

none
Mum Kabardey
Dad Kumukh

[Guest Fadi]

raffi I would add to Circassian information provided, if my memory is exact the Greywold organisation was found in 1941, or for sure near to it if I am mistaken. The organization was found as a supporter of NAZI ideologies and the "Supperiority" of the Turkish "race". had the same kind of ideologies from the government, like Karabekir and the like of him that had during WWII some inspirations over Soviet Territory.

 

The Greywold is a hyper-nationalistic ideology and it's name has been wrongly pout from the name that Ataturk was called(Greywolf).

 

The Greywolf is still active and still a racistic organisation that has many link with political parties and many time subventioned by them olso, they openly talk about the destruction of Kurdish identity and other minorities.

 

Inronicly the same organisation that Circassian was a fervent supporter in his years in Turkey and still is a supporter.

 

The Grey wolf still has Pan-Touranian dreams of total linkedge of all "touranian" peoples for the formation of a Touranian Turkey.

[ThornyRose]

Tadjiks are not Turkic.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thorny Rose:
Tadjiks are not Turkic.

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chineese then .

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Domino:

The Grey wolf still has Pan-Touranian dreams of total linkedge of all "touranian" peoples for the formation of a Touranian Turkey.

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provided that it is achieved consensually & commercially even politically ; then what's wrong with that ?

All of those turkic rebuplics are under russian rule , greywolves are asking for the freedom of their cousins.
I travelled to the region & seen it with my own eyes what the soviet rule has done for those people
( Domino do you even care about them? You seem like busying yourself with 1915 while in 2001 in real time - muslims of central asia are under most sinister dictatorships supported by russians who incidentially support armenia in caucasus as well.)

This is all going on NOW as we speak , unfortunately as I have been informed by some , there is no reason why the armenian diasporeans should actually ever be concerned about this form oppression & enslavery of people.

If I was a pessimistic I would say because of your own ignorance(sorry) in this matter , you are actually helping IVAN with his efforts to hold entire world to ransom with it's nuclear arsenal & uncertain future.

I am an optimistic on the whole.

[ceyhun]

There wasn't any Turkic expansionism if we don't count the empires that Turks built before they embraced Islam. So Circassian's claim that Turkic expansian has always contained inclusiveness is not accurate.

Neither did the Ottomans or Selcuks hold a Turkic identity. Then where is the Turkic expansionsim that Circassian is talking about? That non-muslims held top positions in the Ottoman administration is not the same thing as the assimilation of others' languages and identities by the Turkish Republic so that it is ironic that it is the Circassian who gets confused here not me (I mean the proverb of sapla samani karistirmak. Christians were converted to Ottoman identity which was multi -nationalistic. Forcing people to quit speaking their own language and speak Turkish is assimilation of a language. People in Turkey were stripped off and a new, alien identity which did not exist was imposed. I call rape what you call inclusiveness.

[Guest]

Ceyhun

 

OK

[Berj]

Well, that was a "wait and you'll see", ah?
OK let's wait.

[Guest]

Berj

 

Play this game at your own expense, I assure you i have not interest in gaming.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by ceyhun:
There wasn't any Turkic expansionism if we don't count the empires that Turks built before they embraced Islam. So Circassian's claim that Turkic expansian has always contained inclusiveness is not accurate.
Neither did the Ottomans or Selcuks hold a Turkic identity. Then where is the Turkic expansionsim that Circassian is talking about? That non-muslims held top positions in the Ottoman administration is not the same thing as the assimilation of others' languages and identities by the Turkish Republic so that it is ironic that it is the Circassian who gets confused here not me (I mean the proverb of sapla samani karistirmak. Christians were converted to Ottoman identity which was multi -nationalistic. Forcing people to quit speaking their own language and speak Turkish is assimilation of a language. People in Turkey were stripped off and a new, alien identity which did not exist was imposed. I call rape what you call inclusiveness.

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LOL ; beyond reply this is.

It did not get any replies because it's obvious that the Ceyhun character is full of
misinformation about turks & furthermore he/she is rude & unconcerned about the faith of all those turkic people under russian rule.
I bet ceyhun's father/mother is one of those " Daaevrimci " indivisual from the early seventies.

You have your "dikengulu" who thinks because her parents landed in an armenian house & so did everybody else - NOT TRUE.

WE had built ourhouse from the MUD & WOOD , did not go and settle in a "GhostHouse" that once belonged to an armenian.

That seems to be the speciality of some Abzeh who is also known as historical horse thieves.

You have Ceyhun ( probably a kurd ) just puked up the soviet marxist & leninist indoctrination about the "Turk".

You just have couple of clowns who think they are doing something "Cool".
Nothing to do with future & potential & pragmatism and realism.

[Berj]

Circassian,

Tajiks are Indo-Europeans (especially the Pamirians), Kazakhstan has 60% Russian population, Kirgizs are more conserned with the Taliban offencive than the Turik solidarity, Turkmens are almost Persians and have lot of problems with Azeris. Acually, all this was cofirmed in the last CIS defence agreement meeting at Yerevan just 3 days ago. The Kazakh president even said that they're agaist Touran, without having any reason to state that. Only the Uzbeks were not present.

You should have signed the quoted part "Zia Geok Alp" or "Doctor Nazim".

And also, the Shanghai 5 is also dealing with the same issue, and these two structures can merge one day.

[ThornyRose]

Mehmet, my grandfather's grandfather's house was built from scratch by an Armenian for my great-great-grandfather's family, as was the one next to it. It was paid for in gold and the ownership was my great-great-grandfather's from the very start.

Is that clear enough for you? If it had been "landed on", I may or may not have elaborated on that. But it was not "landed on."

Puking? Who is puking crap, to softly put it, when you are talking about "our Turkic brothers"??? What difference do they have compared to the other folks in the world? They are equally outsiders to Turkish citizens as are Nigerians. Sure, they are interesting and speak languages similar to ours, and I would love to have enough money one day to track the Silk Road back and forth. But that is not the issue.

Before we look long-range, I believe we have to look inside for our political weaknesses and immediately next to us for our emotional bonds to where we live.

Why are you so all a gaa-gaa over some Uzbeks and Kazakhs when there are people to develop fraternity with in your country and her neighbors?

I believe the diasporan Armenians you cannot trust are closer to us than all the rest, save perhaps the exception of the Azeris - in terms of culture and all. This common base may disappear within a generation or two, yes. But if there is anyone to reach out to, after our expatriots, it is the "minorities in exile" - not people with whom there is little cultural link and hasn't been much for centuries.

It is like people trying to look for love on the internet when there might be something/someone just right very close to you. It is like being preoccupied with others when there are problems in your own family.

I find it funny that you do not show the effort to fathom this when you try to pull off the "great humanist-nationalist" role by mentioning the fact that your wife is a Christian - why so inconsiderate for Armenians and other Christian minorities, then? It can't be all minorities, can it, when you are a member of such yourself? Or is your wife a Gagauz, which is how her religious beliefs might be explained? (Not that I am the least interested.)

What was that you said about pragmatism, realism, etc., again?

I do not know him well enough (hardly at all, in fact), but I doubt Ceyhun follows Marxism.

Marxism, at least, was able to be put to test.

Pan-Turkism, on the other hand, has never been able to be put to test. You know why? Because it is all wishy-washy. Because, unlike most ideologies, it lacks theory. Because while there was a bunch shouting their heads off, there was another group, the majority (these, not the slogan-pronouncers, were the realists), that said, "Yeah? I'll bet. Ho hum."

Your bunch of "Turkish expansionists for Turkic glory" reminds me of the bunch of Armenians and Greeks who rally for retaking of ancestral lands - all out of touch with reality and having the nerve to talk about "future and potential and pragmatism and reality," just different groups.

Why do you care so much about why Ceyhun's post did not get answers, when you yourself have yet to properly answer my question regarding the fact that it isn't the Armenians' fault that what happened to their families actually happened, any more than it is yours, and that we have a responsibility towards the descendents of these people (yes, I've come to realize this) just as much as we owe it to ourselves to help out the "rejected" elements of our society?

Like I said - don't try to look too far. You have a back-yard to sweep up (country and self). You are not being helpful to your country by accusing people of not caring so much about other people (namely the Turkic peoples of Central Asia), at least not as much as you do; therefore, I do not expect to be told I am not being helpful to our country because I happen to consider a few issues related to my country, no matter how central or peripheral, together. This "faith of Turkic peoples under Russian rule" business is a non-issue for us. That is the difference.

[koko]

If you want us to feel at home, and welcome in Your country, you should start with recognizing the Genocide of the armenians commited by the turkish government in 1915.

[Guest]

To

DikenGulu

 

Under the russian & chinesee pact , all of those countries will get rich & democratic rights will also be improved upon ?

 

Are you for real ?

[Berj]

If nothing hampers the economic developent of Russia or China, which are on the way of becoming democracies (in 20 years or so), all those countries will get comparative freedom by natural course of events. Nobody will try to keep Chechnya in Russia, for example, if these nations have integrated economies.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Berj:
If nothing hampers the economic developent of Russia or China, which are on the way of becoming democracies (in 20 years or so), all those countries will get comparative freedom by natural course of events. Nobody will try to keep Chechnya in Russia, for example, if these nations have integrated economies.

---

Berj
both countries are heavily reliant on non-native populations for troublesome free entegration of their economy.
If self determination is a "Human Right" then you can consider these people as victims.

[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: circassian ]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by koko:


If you want us to feel at home, and welcome in Your country, you should start with recognizing the Genocide of the armenians commited by the turkish government in 1915.

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As I stated before ; recognition of genocide is not a choice for an indivisual.
You may however take my sincere sorrow for your dead & presecuted.
without hoprefully forgeting the fact that every horror your ancestors have experienced my ancestors also have experienced it too.

[ThornyRose]

Mehmet, was this the best answer you could muster? I had a whole lot of things for you to comment on, and few, if any, of them were personal; instead, you give me this? (Well, at least it is not flippant, followed with a ...)

 

What Sino-Russian pact? What about it? What have you to say about it? On what premises do you object to such? Can we object when Greece forms an alliance with Syria? No. Can Syria complain when we form an alliance with Israel? No. Can it counteract? Yes. What if it can't? Stiff faeces. Same goes to your brothers and your country.

What were you saying again? Again, why care so much about Central Asians? Because they speak a dialect of Turkish? Are you, in the mental framework, able to process the issues within our country well enough already?

I remember everything. I suggest you do your homework, because otherwise you are going to have a whole pile of questions soon, not knowing where to start from. Yep.

Please do answer my one and only well-thought-up post. I think it is only fair - don't you?

[Berj]

Circassian,

Sure they are victims. No question about that. Any minority in any multy-national country is a victim, no matter how good the central govt treats it. I have yet to see a minority who will say: "Our govt treats us good so we don't want independence".

I just think that, specifically in case of the Nothern Caucasian nations (Circassians, Chechens, Ingushes, Dagestani people, Avars, Kabarda, Balkars, Karachais) the fastest way to different levels of self-determination eventually resulting in independence lies through active participation in the economic life of Russia. Taking into account that Russia is still deep in the region, the abrupt and painful millitary struggle could lead to inter-clan conflicts between all these nations.

 

[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: Berj ]

[Guest Fadi]

Koko, like you can remark I poul out my discussion with Circassian. If you search any sincerity and a recognition discussion, you shoused the bad person. This guy will always finish by declaring that what happened to Armenians happened to his people. There is a hypocrasy hiden in this remark like you maybe remarked.

 

His way works as this. Event A didn't happened, saying it happened is taking one side of a history(like there is two side of the extermination of a people), what ever happened to event A olso happened to Event B, B is a historical reality that happened for sure, there is no other side of the history for the fact that event B really happened.

 

Like you see there is a logical contradiction on this. This is the bases of Circassian analyse of the situation. If everything that happened to A olso happened to B, then things that happened to B happened to A, but the event A didn't really happened from his logic since the event A desciption is only one side of the story, that mean that worst happened to B.

 

Well, still he didn't provided me were the Circassians as an entire people were sent in a desert to burn in mass. Were Circassian orphans were injected with morphin then drowned in lakes, were it was illegal to Circassian to leave in order to catsh them and exterminate them. Were there was in the middle of deserts a fire consumed by corps to burn thousands in one shut.

 

You will never have any honest answer from this guy, don't lose your time talking about the genocide with him, he is a programmed brainwashed guy. What do you expect from a fervent Grey wolf addict.

 

His tricks I know them all, just don't enter in his game, of the poor victime being attacked.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thorny Rose:
Mehmet, was this the best answer you could muster? I had a whole lot of things for you to comment on, and few, if any, of them were personal; instead, you give me this? (Well, at least it is not flippant, followed with a ...)

What Sino-Russian pact? What about it? What have you to say about it? On what premises do you object to such? Can we object when Greece forms an alliance with Syria? No. Can Syria complain when we form an alliance with Israel? No. Can it counteract? Yes. What if it can't? Stiff faeces. Same goes to your brothers and your country.
What were you saying again? Again, why care so much about Central Asians? Because they speak a dialect of Turkish? Are you, in the mental framework, able to process the issues within our country well enough already?
I remember everything. I suggest you do your homework, because otherwise you are going to have a whole pile of questions soon, not knowing where to start from. Yep.
Please do answer my one and only well-thought-up post. I think it is only fair - don't you?

---

Thorny

I was only preparing to reply your last post .
Now you are asking me about sino-russian pact , girl you are at least fast - which is appreciated.

Your answers are coming soon , I hate to owe anything , not even an answer.