Berj

http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg33833.html Calgary Sun June 23 2001 YOU CAN BE A STAR LISA WILTON, CALGARY SUN Calling all Mediterranean (or Mediterranean-looking) men. Classic Casting is looking for about 100 men between the ages of 18 and 45 to be extras in the new Atom Egoyan film Ararat, which deals with the Armenian genocide of 1915. There is a catch, however. Those who audition must be comfortable and competent in handling firearms as they will be cast as soldiers. The film also requires young and elderly men and women, as well as children between 10 to 15 years, old to play Armenian civilians. Extras will be paid $7.50 an hour. The casting call will be held Wednesday from 2 to 9 p.m. in the Balmoral Room of the Days Inn, 1818 16 Ave. N.W. (across from North Hill Centre.) Ararat will film in Drumheller starting July 19 until the end of the month.

Azerbaijani to a German: Azeri: "How do you say a.s in German". German: "Nizami". Azeri: "On realy, that sounds like the name of our poet from Gyanja". German: "Well, this is to you for Goethe".

No Boghos, It's: "Akhpers, vor meke Erevan eka shakhmat pti haghanq". However "nardi" would sound better in this sentence. [ June 23, 2001: Message edited by: Berj ]

OK, Boghos jan, you win.

Why, Boghos? Are they all rabiz there?

Boghos jan, Nothing of this kind exists. You're misinformed As you surely know, the Rabbies are the Jewish clergy.

quote:Originally posted by Harut: the first Armenian Arshakouni king was Trdat the first. with the support of his brother, the king of Parthia, Vagharsh Arshakouni, he becomes the king of Armenia in 54 AD. Harut, The first Arshkouni ruler of Armenia was Arshak. But my date was wrong. He came to Armenia in 34ad not 66ad. He was placed to rule Armenia by Pathian king Artavan 3rd and was his elder son. Trdat 1st is regarded as first Arshakouni king in Armenia because he got his crown from Neron the Emperor of Rome and was recognised by him. But the Armenian Arshakouni Dynasty started approx. in 190s when the Parthian king lost his right to place his candidate on the Armenian throne, after discontent from the side of Armenian nakharars. After that time the thone was being inherited by the king's elder son. And also, this was the time when Armenian Arshakounies began to conduct their policies independant from Parthian kings will.

Welcome Degali.

AZG Armenian Daily #115,06/22/2001 Church issues ECHMIADZIN-ANTILIAS CRISIS IS POLITICAL The spiritual leader of the Tehran Armenians Bishop Sepouh Sargisian said with a semi-bitter smile: “ I hope you are not going to ask “mined” questions.” I said I was not. A one hour-long conversation I had with the Bishop at his residence was more than frank. Later it appeared that I gave in to temptation and actually all my questions were “mined” It was evident that my questions made him sad and I was sorry for it. Before I left the bishop gave me four books as a present, one of which was his work about the history of the Armenian Church. “We did not have the courage to correctly understand and explain the historical realities,” he said, meaning the division of the Armenian Church into two centers, one in Saint Echmiadzin in Armenia proper and the second in Antelais, Lebanon. This division was described by the deceased leader of Echmiadzin Catholicos Vazgen I as “ a political alarm.” One of the Armenian parties had forced the Antelias or commonly known as the Great House of Cilicia to split from Echmiadzin with an apparent aim to spread its influence over Diasporan Armenians. Why did the Armenian Church split? Why the leaders of Tehran, Nor Jugha and Atrpatakan dioceses are appointed not by Echmiadzin, but by the Great House of Cilicia? This split happened in 1956. With a hope to find answers to these questions, I appealed to Movses Keshishian, the chief editor of Armenian language Araxs magazine, published in Tehran. He wrote in an article, addressed to Catholicos Aram I, the head of the Great House of Cilicia: “ Just two weeks after the fifth anniversary of your election as the head of Great House of Cilicia , speaking at the editorial office of the daily Alik you seemed to be blowing a cold wind on the candle of hope you lit yourself, by announcing that the Great House of Cilicia and the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) have always been together when issues of common interest to all Diaspora Armenians were at stake, especially beginning from 1956.” Why the Great House of Cilicia and the ARf have always been together.? Are the ARF members are more Christian than the other sections of Armenians and why “especially beginning from 1956?” What did happen in that ill-omened year? Actually the Armenian Church split into two, which rejoiced our enemies. After the World War II, during the most severe years of cold war, a satanic idea was conceived within the ruling body of the ARF-to seize the Diaspora Armenians by capturing its House of Faith. To take this anti-Armenian step politicized, or to be more exact, clergymen affiliated closely with the ARF were needed. In 1956 bishops Zareh and Khoren were ready to break the bridges uniting Diaspora Armenians with the Saint Echmiadzin, but nine senior clergymen, led by Archbishop Khad, opposed to the move in an attempt to back the Cathiolcios of All Armenians and prevent the division, but another seven top clergymen obeyed the ARF and the direct aid of the then president of Lebanon Kamil Shamouni was instrumental in dividing the Armenian Church. Armavir Margarian, the leader of the Iranian Armenians Cultural Union says: “In 1956 the ARF with the direct assistance of the CIA, Iranian Shah Reza Pehlevi and Lebanese president seized Antelias from Echmiadzin.” I am asking Bishop Sepouh Sargisian why did the Great House of Cilicia seize three Iranian dioceses from Echmiadzin? His answer was: “ Unfortunately, we did not have the courage to correctly understand and explain the historical realities. In 1942-43, when the Tehran diocese was formed, all the priests coming from Echmiadzin, had to, under the circumstances, to enter into daily contacts with the Soviet embassy for “cooperation.” The Iranian authorities began not liking it and one day they prohibited appointment of priests from Echmiadzin to Armenian dioceses in Iran. The Tehran diocese remained without a spiritual leader for long years, later the Iranian authorities asked the Great House of Cilicia to sent priests here, which it did with great pleasure. Now, tell me, do you see any “seizure” in all this?” I am asking him if it were not the time to unite the two Armenian Churches. “ We do not have two Churches, our Church is one, the Armenian Apostolic Church, but we have two administrative centers, two Catholicosates, besides, there are two Patriarchates-in Istanbul and Jerusalem. The reasons are of political, social and economic nature. I do not think that the existence of two Catholicosates disturbs the inner life of the Church. Armenia, and it is beyond any doubt, is our homeland, today’s independent and free Armenia is our long years’ dream. Having two Catholicosates, in terms of promoting the Armenian Cause, I think, is rather favorable than detrimental. The Great House of Cilicia, located in Lebanon is a kind of symbol of our nation’s liberation movement symbol and this struggle will continue until our entire dream is realized,” he says. Says Movses Keshishian: “ We believe that the Church should not be affiliated with any political party and this detaches us from the Church, we are trying to maintain natural relations with the dioceses, but unfortunately, sometimes people speak not as clergymen but as party leaders. We have always repeated that as a guarantee of the Armenians’ unity the Church also should be united. The Church must be alienated from the parties.” Bishop Sepouh Sargisian was appointed the leader of Tehran diocese a year and a half ago, the Tehran Diocese is the youngest of the three dioceses- in Atrpatakan and Nor Jugha. “In 60-70s there were 150,000 Armenians in Tehran only and our community was flourishing. Today we have 25 schools, an acting church, four chapels.” Besides these 25 schools, there are also another five Armenians schools in Tehran run by the Armenian General Benevolent Union (AGBU), Armenian Catholics and Protestants. Movses Keshishian says: “ We have never propagated against or for the Armenian authorities, as we believe that regardless of who rules in Armenia, it is our task to defend Armenia. The differences between the ARF and us are related to Church, it must not belong to the ARF.” Tatool Hakobian

BUSINESSMAN FROM MOSCOW IS GOING TO ORGANIZE MUD-FIGHTS WITH PARTICIPATION OF ARMENIAN WOMEN SNARK HEADLINES OF 21 JUNE YEREVAN, JUNE 21. Businessman from Moscow Araik Oganesyan is going to organize mud-fights with the participation of Armenian women. He is sure that many women will agree to take part in them considering the high unemployment rate in Armenia. Oganesyan told SNARK he is going to recruit nearly 100 women-fighters from 18 to 35 and to pay them wages of $100 plus premiums (shares from stakes), which is quite high for Armenia. He said women's mud-fights is a novelty for the Armenian show-business. So, he is sure that the fights will arouse the public's interest. Oganesyan is going to invest some $1,500 in this project. He is going to train the women at his own expense. He have already recruitted 10 aspirants mainly from various sports combats. However, a sportsman himself Oganesyan prefers amateurs as he does not need the rough sports struggle. He is not looking for models, what he needs is physical strength and femininity. Oganesyan also noted that the women will have make-ups that will render them unrecognizable. By the way Oganesyan does not think that Armenian women are conservative. He noted that he was the first who organized a striptease show and opened an intimacy-shop. "Once we got a lot of vibrators for nearly $4,000. We thought we'd go bankrupt, but we in some ten days we had to order a new lot," he said. Besides, women's fights Oganesyan is going to introduce a number of others novelties: erotic dance and car-washing stations where half-naked girls will wash cars to music. Oganesyan said he is going to spend the earnings on restoring the Palace of Youth of Armenia.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: dear berj, i wasn't aware i had come to such a conclusion, in fact it wasn't my point. as i am writing this off at the office, i have my history & archaeology books at home and therefore cannot check offhand. for all i know, it may be the same kingdom. what i was referring to was the language, and there i think i am on pretty firm ground. some people did move to the area at about that date and destroyed the hittite kingdom. these are referred to as the sea peoples in hittite annals, and phrygians (muski) are part of that group. since armenian is not a member of the anatolian subgroup of indo-european (which includes hittite, luwian, lycian, lydian and palaic), it must have come in a separate wave. as far as we know, hittite is the oldest indo-european intrusion into anatolia, and it is probably futile to look for earlier ones since indo-european is likely to have been a linguistic unity in the third, or at the earliest fourth, millennium bc. Dear Ali, Thank you for your answer. First let me give you the chronology of Kingdoms of Armenian origin on Armenian Plateau which is used in Armenian historiography. Ararat Kingdom or Urartu 860bc – 590bc (lets assume its not Armenian) Ervadouni Kingdom mid. 6th century bc – 191 bc Artashesian Kingdom 189bc- mid. 1st century ad Armenianised branch of Parthian Arshkounies 190s-428 (the first Parthian king in Armenia Arshak 1st was inthroned in 66) Bagratouni Kingdom 885-1041 The Cilician Armenian Kingdom which existed from 1075 to 1385 was situated out of the area of the initial origination of the Armenian nation. Now, lets go back to the Urartian language. Until now nobody knows how it sounded. The studies of Urartian language in Soviet times (mainly by Boris Piotrovski) have only some limited results, one of which was the decription of Urartian consonants. The vowels of Urartian language are largely unknown. Urartians were using Assirian, Hurrit and image characters. The consonants have been decripted by comparative study of toponyms in Urartian and Assirian cuniforms, were they appear to be alike. However the vowels are different. So, for example the word “Urartu” appears as “R-R-T-” in decripted Urartian, Assirian and Hurrite cuniforms. And the the scientists who decripted the Urartian cuniforms use the Assirian vowels to read it. That’s how it became “Urartu”. I want to bring your attention to other interesting factors. The famous Behistounian Wall incarving (520bc) of the Achemenian King Darius 1st, which was written in 3 languages (ancient Farsi (Avestan), Aramean and Assirian) mentiones "Arminia" in the Farsi text, "Ararat" Kingdom in Aramean text and "Urartu" in Assirian text at the same place in the sentence were Darius says that the king of that land Yervand pays him tribute. The King Yervand that Darius mentions is the first king of the Yervadouni Armenian Dynasty, refered as Yervand Sakavakyats in Mouses Khorenatsi’s (an Armenian historian of 5th century) The History of Armenia. The life of Armenia during the Yervadouni Kingdom is described in amasing details by Ksenophone (a famous Greek historian) in his writings “Kyuropaedia” and “Anabasis”. He describes the tax collection system of the Yervadouni Kindom, garrisons of the cities, the agriculture. He mentions that the people of King Yervand’s land spoke one language on the whole territory from the north-west shores of lake Urmia to the banks of Euprates river. By his desciption, Yervandouni Kingdom was a well organised state, and was one of the main adversaries of Achemenian Persia. Isn’t it interesting that the Yervandouni kings managed to organise a state (the people of which spoke one language) on the same territory of Ararat Kingdom (which fall in 590bc under the attacks of Skithians and Medians) just in some 60-70 years. I strongly doubt that Urartu fall under attacks of the same tribe that formed the Yervandouni Kingdom and I advocate that Yervandounies had the same cultural and ethnic background as the Urartians and that they were just a successive dynasty. quote: herodotus tells us that phrygians were the ancestors of the armenians. but then again, he told us many things that we now know not to be true. the chief problems here are 1) the fact that phrygian linguistic remains are scant, and 2) there is a thousand years between the first appearance of phrygian and the first writen records in armenian. phrygian remains are written in a language that was long dead by the time they were written (it was a ritual language), and sharply formulaic: "if you rob this tomb may you go to hell" kind of stuff. imagine that all you know of english is the texts that accompany these internet messages containing dalai lama wisdom and the admonision that if you send them to six people you'll get all you want, and if you don't, you'll lose all you have! so phrygian texts don't give you much of a clue about the details of the language. most linguists saw it as a language somewhat related to the ancient thracian tongues (which would make them related to the mother tongue of alexander the great) but one of my reference books (by macqueen) says that phrygian is basically a member of the hittite-luwian subgroup. i find this most confusing and would not comment on it until i saw the data behind the claim. if this is the case then who were the sea peoples and where did they go? The theory of phrigians being the ancestors of Armenians is based on the legend of Yason and the argonauts by Strabo. He says that Armenians are named after Armenios, who was in the group of argonauts. By the way, during the conquests of Alexander the Great Greeks wrote similar stories about the ancestors of Persians. The theory of movement of Indo-European tribes the from Balkans to Anatolia contradicts the reseaches on the Melting Period. quote: also, a word on names: ararat is obviously a sequel to urartu. but so is hittite to hatti (hatti was the name of the indigenous people of anatolia prior to the incursion of the hittites). identity of name does not necessarily mean identity of ethnicity. anatolian turks used to call themselves "rum" in classical ootoman times, the designation that the greeks had used for themselves. of course, it originally meant "a roman". one must be very careful when equating a name with an identity. i hope this has been of some help. regards Once I mentioned that Georgians call Armenia SomHETTI, and the parts of Georgia populated by Armenians JavaHETTI AND KaHETTI. I’m interested if Georgians use HETTI in other toponyms. Some Georgian speaker would help. Thanks again, Regards [ June 22, 2001: Message edited by: Berj ]

Naira, I'll give it in the "Surnames" thread shortly. Watch your language.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: when people who spoke proto-armenian first moved into anatolia sometime between 1200-800 bc, they must have encountered both the hittites and further east the urartians (and later the hurri Dear Ali, What is the reference you use to come to conclusion that Urartu was not the Ararat Kingdom which existed on the Armenian Plateau from 860bc to 590bc and was succeded by Ervandouny Armenian Kingdom in 560bc. Thanks

quote:Originally posted by gamavor: To Ali and Thorny Whatever... Gamavor, Some common decency would not harm.

quote:Originally posted by naira: Berj: Ok, I'll hang up on you! Leave me alone, capici? Que bobo, putain? ... Whatever. I'll just edit the part your post about Urartu, because it's a misinformation..