The Situation In Lebanon

[ArmoPhil]

So let me get this straight : israel could have won the war last summer, but did not want to ? or it did ? am i missing something ?

 

let us list Israeli war objectives , as stated by Olmert , shall we ?

 

I quote:

 

-The return of the hostages, Ehud (Udi) Goldwasser and Eldad Regev;

-A complete cease fire; sure , after a war there is always ceasefire, tell us something more ingenious

-Deployment of Lebanese army in all of southern Lebanon; (Leb. army was already deployed in S. Lebanon and there was even a coordination front w/ Hezb Allah !!! )

-Expulsion of HezbAllah from the area , and

-Fulfillment of United Nations Resolution 1559

 

These are the words taken from Ehud Olmert's address at the "Knesset" on 17 Jul 2006.

 

So according to you:

 

1. Israel could free the "hostages" but just did not want to.

2. Israel could achieve cease fire. Ok ok , i give you this one... i have to say , Israel was able to achieve ceasefire.

3. Israel could kick Hezballah out of South Lebanon but just chose not to.

4. Israel could force the fulfillment of UN res. 1559 but just chose not to....

 

OK, we get it, Israel "won".

 

Who suffered the most Casualties? Lebanon. In every aspect. If it wasn't for all the surpressions, Hezbollah would be dead today. It's world conspiracy. The IDF can find out where Nasrallah is now and kill him the next 5 minutes.

[Sip]

Hezb Allah didn't win anything. They use civilians as their shields and hide among innocent people. Then when an army goes after them, they bitch and cry about how Israel is killing civilians. Actually it's great to see Israel use restraint here because they certainly can totally LEVEL lebanon, Iraq, and Syra, if they wanted. Edited June 7, 2007 by Sip

[ArmoPhil]

You really think that Israel won the war?

As it has been pointed out, Israel was not able to reach its objectives. It thought it would be able to accomplish more than it actually did.

Haha, let the war restart. Israel won't stop. They will disregard the numbers of civilian deaths and will keep fighting until Hezbollah disarms. I proved myself already, how can Hezbollah finish off the IDF with America on it's back? And also, remember the Yom Kipper War. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

[Dave]

According to what Israeli officials said, the war wasn't aimed at the Lebanese population. Yeah right... So all the death and destruction in Lebanon don't mean anything? If the Zionists are able to target innocent women and children, then fine, let them do it. After all, that's the only thing that the Zionists CAN do properly.

 

All that Hezbollah is doing is defending Lebanese land. It does not need to "finish off" the IDF.

 

 

[ArmoPhil]

According to what Israeli officials said, the war wasn't aimed at the Lebanese population. Yeah right... So all the death and destruction in Lebanon don't mean anything? If the Zionists are able to target innocent women and children, then fine, let them do it. After all, that's the only thing that the Zionists CAN do properly.

 

All that Hezbollah is doing is defending Lebanese land. It does not need to "finish off" the IDF.

You think it's that easy, Hezbollah is hiding behind families. In Mosques, in Hospitals, in Child Centers, etc. Blame Hezbollah for the civilian casualties.

[ArmoPhil]

Sako*****, may I ask why you are bringing Dashnak or Ramgavar in this topic?

[Dave]

You think it's that easy, Hezbollah is hiding behind families. In Mosques, in Hospitals, in Child Centers, etc. Blame Hezbollah for the civilian casualties.

 

They're not hiding behind families of South Lebanon, they are the families of South Lebanon.

That still doesn't justify Israel's killing of Lebanese civilians and destruction of Lebanese infrastructure even in areas where there's no Hezballah.

[Accelerated]

I think some of you should spend less time watching Al-Manar, and look at things more objectively.

[ArmoPhil]

They're not hiding behind families of South Lebanon, they are the families of South Lebanon.

That still doesn't justify Israel's killing of Lebanese civilians and destruction of Lebanese infrastructure even in areas where there's no Hezballah.

You have any references to that? Hezbollah is CLEARLY hiding behind Lebanese families. I also want to note that they are also hiding in Christian churches, using them as shields.

[Dave]

I don't know where you get this stuff.

[ArmoPhil]

Search in Google, Hezbollah hiding behind Families. You'll see a bunch of information.

[AK-47]

Tsk tsk tsk, I read some of the messages on this thread and I see disappointment. How could some of you be so blinded by CNN/Fox News crap? Don't you get it that all these stations are being held from their "dashakhs" by Zionists? It is being mentioned time and time again that Hizb Allah hides behind this and that ... where do you get this information? Western media? LOL. The mouthpiece of the Հրէայ: OF COURSE it will create such stories!!! They want you and the entire weak minded public to believe that whoever does not agree with the USA (or should I say, Zionism) are terrorists.

 

If you agree that Hizb Allah are this bad thing and that bad thing then you clearly have no right to support our fedayis because what they did during the national liberation movement would be defined by such people as terrorism. Lebanon is a country under a 25 year partial occupation. The Shebaa Farms are STILL under Zionist occupation, the Golan Heights are still under Zionist occupation, Lebanese airspace is under occupation, S. Lebanese roads are under Zionist cluster bomb occupation etc etc. I ask you, what the hell would you do if Stepanakert was under occupation right now? Hizb Allah IS the Lebanese population. Hizb Allah are mostly civilian volunteers, just like we had volunteers during our liberation of Artsakh. If it wasn't for these guys, you'd still see ugly Zionist soldiers eating falafel in Lebanon (note, falafel is cheap ). I ask you, who sent these Palestinians and Fatah al-Islams into Lebanon? It is the Zionists!

 

Hizb Allah hides behind civilians...HAHA. They are the civilian population. Even if they did disperse themselves into civilian populations, it is the basic concept of guerrilla warfare! It is the way any outgunned and outnumbered army will fight, it is the way our own fedayis fought.

 

If the USA keeps investing in Azerbaijan and God-forbid there is a war with Armenia in the near future, we will be portrayed as terrorists. Why? Because Azerbaijan is the more economically attractive whore. Who will you support... the robot like propoganda of Wolf Blitzer or your compatriots...

[Sip]

Tsk tsk tsk, I read some of the messages on this thread and I see disappointment. How could some of you be so blinded by CNN/Fox News crap?

 

For the same reason that so many are blinded by the Al Jazeera crap. AK, first you say we are somehow being "fooled" that Hizb Allah is hiding behind the civilians, then you say they are the civilians, then you compare them to Hye Fidayis. I can definitely see brain washing here and I don't think it's done by CNN or Fox news (neither of which I have ever found remotely interesting). I mean just look at who created this thread ... He thinks Islam is some sort of wonderful Universal truth and he thinks he is Armenian. Do you really want to talk about brain washing?

Edited June 7, 2007 by Sip

[AK-47]

For the same reason that so many are blinded by the Al Jazeera crap. AK, first you say we are somehow being "fooled" that Hizb Allah is hiding behind the civilians, then you say they are the civilians, then you compare them to Hye Fidayis. I can definitely see brain washing here and I don't think it's done by CNN or Fox news (neither of which I have ever found remotely interesting). I mean just look at who created this thread ... He thinks Islam is some sort of wonderful Universal truth and he thinks he is Armenian. Do you really want to talk about brain washing?

I am not interested in Islam and it's not the reason why I am being defensive of Hizb Allah. I just feel that it is totally their right to defend the Lebanese people (whilst the army is incompetent; see the war going on right now) from occupation and constant bullying and harassment. Lebanon did not start the war with Israel, the latter threw the stateless Palestinians in Lebanon and then chased after them to the total loss of the Lebanese people (including about 190 000 Armenians, որոնց մէջ իմ ընտանիքս կայ).

 

My point was that they are technically not hiding behind civilians because they are the southern Lebanese civilians, they are the ones who have their Shebaa farms under occupation its been 25 years. It is a guerrilla war, much like how our fedayis fought from 1896 to 1908 and then from 1918 to 1920.

 

I've read somewhere where Nasrallah (believe it or not, this guy can read and speak Armenian) clearly said over and over again that it will disarm/merge with the army the moment that the Shebaa is released and Lebanese prisoners set free.

 

While I do not agree with Sassun's conversion to Islam which can/will lead to assimilation, he is a patriot that loves his country.

Edited June 7, 2007 by AK-47

[Dave]

We shouldn't forget the constant incursions that the Israeli army was making in Lebanon during the months preceding the war. Those are breaches of Lebanese sovereignty by an external force.

 

Oh, and they're the ones who made Israel retreat from Southern Lebanon in the year 2000.

[abass80]

first i will start by asking u not to make this thread as a RAG-ARF battleground! The ARF collaborated with the Phalangists(a fascist movement created by Pierre Gemayel after he visited Nazi Germany and got inspired by Hitler's youth movement) so get over it and apologize! As for RAG, they have so many problems now that they cannot even sell themselves to the public(this goes for someone who suggested in a previous post that RAG of Lebanon sold the Armenians in the elections) :D!

 

I do not consider Hezballah a terrorist movement(of course someone's terrorist is the another's freedom fighter and vise versa)! they are part of the Lebanese people and unfortunately they are the only ones that have the courage to defend their land! In last summer's aggressive attack of Israel against Lebanon, it was very disturbing to see Hezballah fight and the Lebanese army (and the rest of the militias) do nothing! some may say that Hezballah started the war, some may disagree with Hezballah in many issues, but when a foreign country invades your territory, you put aside your differences, you pick up arms and you defend your land(the rest of you issues you can solve later)!

 

If Lebanon and the Lebanese really want something to change they first have to change their narrow sectarian oriented way of thought! Either they start putting their country before their sects or change their election system(which by the way is based on a census conducted more than 50 years ago and does not represent the current figures of the population) and let the majority lead the way! As i wrote in a previous post, all problems of Lebanon originate from their sectarian way of government, way of thought and way of life!

 

You have a small country where some of the population is with Syria, others are with Iran, others with Israel, others with the US and others with France! this is not a country, this is ........! miain garmir louis m@ bagas e yergrin vraien!

 

My mother and her family is from Leb, i've been there a couple of times, i consider it a second home and i find it really sad that a country with so much natural beauty and with good people(everybody is good until proven otherwise! :D) can tear itself apart in this way! as long as the Lebanese do not work together and they rather seek council from third parties, this will be the fate of Lebanon!

Edited June 7, 2007 by abass80

[Accelerated]

Maybe thats the whole issue. Lebanon is an artificial creation and thats why everyone is puting internal issues before Israel.

[Sassun]

You have any references to that? Hezbollah is CLEARLY hiding behind Lebanese families. I also want to note that they are also hiding in Christian churches, using them as shields.

In fact, read Amnesty International and you will see that HezbAllah has been cleared of this charge. There is absolutely no proof that HezbAllah hid behind civilians , and in fact , as per Amnesty International (now you will say Amnesty Intl is pro-HezbAllah and anti-Semitic/anti-Israel !!!) , hezbAllah did its best DURING the fighting , to help civilians in S. Lebanon and suburbs of Beirut to EVACUATE to safe areas. Many of the evacuees were hit while on the run !!!! Some who could not leave because they were afraid of being targeted while on the road (since that is what the Israelis were doing ) , and because the roads were all cut off anyway !!! Get your facts straight !!

 

Btw if you have pictures "proving" that Churches were used, pls send them to Amnesty Int'l ASAP!!! Thanks.

Edited June 7, 2007 by Sassun

[Sassun]

The ARF collaborated with the Phalangists

Excuse me, but you are wrong. Please review your facts, thanks. !!!

[Sassun]

Sip - I will not talk about the religion reference you made since that is not related and you know it.

 

About the civilian/fighter issue , yes, it is true that H.A fighters are the people of Lebanon (that is what AK-47 meant , from what I understood ). But that does not say anything about them being "civilians". Clearly, they are fighters who wear military uniforms and are clearly identifiable as such in war time as well as when on duty in peace time. There seems to be an inability to distinguish betw. the idea of a local fighting for his land and his family , and the idea of being a "civilian" allegedly "hiding" behind civilians. Speaking of the hiding part , here you go, here is an actual proof of it. Now if you will find me such proof of hiding behind civilians , let us know.

 

Hezb Allah does not need to hide behind civilians , since they will jeopardize their own fighters' safety that way (we all know Israel would not mind killing civilians, and indeed is thirsty for the blood of civilians anyway !!!) , and they do not stay among civilians for this reason , they have their own underground bunkers, which btw throughout the war the Israelis could not discover, even though it was right under their noses. Right on the border. Another proof of Israel's "victory".

[Sassun]

Saudi prince 'received arms cash'

 

The UK's biggest arms dealer, BAE Systems, paid hundreds of millions of pounds to the ex-Saudi ambassador to the US, Prince Bandar bin Sultan.

**

Prince Bandar would not comment on the investigation and BAE Systems said it acted lawfully at all times.

**

According to Panorama's sources, the payments were written into the arms deal contract in secret annexes, described as "support services".

**

Prince Bandar, who is the son of the Saudi defence minister, served for 20 years as US ambassador and is now head of the country's national security council.

 

Link

 

 

I quote myself :

 

Actually , not only her and her family and the current Leb. government, but also Bandar bin Sultan seems to have a hand in the recent events in Lebanon .

 

He is known around here as "Bandar Bush".

[abass80]

Excuse me, but you are wrong. Please review your facts, thanks. !!!

 

Prior to the Lebanese Civil War of 1975-1990, the party was closely allied to the Phalangist Party of Pierre Gemayel, and generally ran joint tickets with the Phalangists, especially in Beirut constituencies with large Armenian populations.[41] The refusal of the ARF, along with most Armenian groups, to play an active role in the civil war, however, soured relations between the two parties, and the Lebanese Forces (a militia dominated by Phalangists and commanded by Bachir Gemayel, Pierre Gemayel's son) responded by attacking the Armenian quarters of many Lebanese towns, including Bourj Hammoud.[41] Many Armenians affiliated with the ARF took up arms voluntarily to defend their quarters. In the midst of the Lebanese civil war, a shadowy guerrilla organization called Justice Commandos Against Armenian Genocide emerged and carried out a string of assassinations from 1975 to 1983. The guerrilla organization has sometimes been linked to the Dashnaks.[42]

 

The above paragraph is from the history of the ARF as it is written in wikipedia! maybe i should have stated that the relationship between the two parties ended when the civil war started! my mistake! but before the civil war they were allies!

Edited June 7, 2007 by abass80

[Sassun]

The above paragraph is from the history of the ARF as it is written in wikipedia! maybe i should have stated that the relationship between the two parties ended when the civil war started! my mistake! but before the civil war they were allies!

Link , please !

(never mind, I found the link)

 

Wikipedia can be edited by anyone , I hope you knew that.

 

Now bring me a credible historical source, otherwise stop fouling the glorious history of the A.R.F! which you only wish the Ramgavars had, but will never have !!! And you know why they won't !!!

Edited June 7, 2007 by Sassun

[abass80]

Wikipedia can be edited by anyone , I hope you knew that.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Revo...nary_Federation

 

i know that the wikipedia can be edited form anyone but that fact is true. most of the lebanese ppl that i know(who know about the history of that time) have confirmed that!

as for the wikipedia article, yete kich m@ gartas bidi hasgnas vor kroghner@ betk e tashnagtsagan @llan!

Edited June 7, 2007 by abass80

[Sassun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Revo...nary_Federation

 

i know that the wikipedia can be edited form anyone but that fact is true. most of the lebanese ppl that i know(who know about the history of that time) have confirmed that!

If it is true , it must be available on a credible source , now give me a source , because I do not buy this "most of the people I know etc" argument . Because I can come up with more "most of the people I know" , not that I need to do so, since my family has been in Leb for generations and has always voted Tashnagtsootyoon !!!