Sasun Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 There are vacuum sealed vaults in the Vatican library containing thousands upon thousands of ancient esoteric books from around the world that have been stolen and hoarded over the years and kept out of public circulation. The Catholic Church which is the root of the Christian religion is controlled by a secret society that has abused occult power to enslave the masses. The end goal is the total enslavement of humanity, which they have worked towards relentlessly and ruthlessly. These people have advanced astrological knowledge that assists their works in regards to timing. These are secrets that have survived the ages from Ancient Babylon and other ancient civilizations that were highly advanced both spiritually, intellectually and technologically. Hey, just out of curiousity, do you have a tiny drop of evidence to support these claims? Catholic church having occult power??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) Matthew 5:11-12 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." AMEN! St Paul also sais that if you are not being persecuted that means there is something wrong with your faith. Because you're not making the devil mad! Edited February 11, 2006 by Djrak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) although I am no one to judge another's faith. but you are. Many people are coming to Christ and many are healed thru those Evangelists. Although they may have flaws, that doesnt make them unbelievers just as it doesnt make them perfect or orthodox in everything they do. All that matters is the Lord and our faith in Him. I dont like Benny Hinn myself not for the same reasons as you. i think he has a lot of personality issues but when it comes to faith and being led by the Lord's Spirit, i have nothing to say because he is bearing fruit. And that is all that matters to Jesus. St Paul sais some teachers preach the gospel for their own glory, and although they will be lost but atleast others may hear God's word from them and be saved. Edited February 11, 2006 by Djrak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanetsi Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) but you are. Many people are coming to Christ and many are healed thru those Evangelists. Although they may have flaws, that doesnt make them unbelievers just as it doesnt make them perfect or orthodox in everything they do. All that matters is the Lord and our faith in Him. I dont like Benny Hinn myself not for the same reasons as you. i think he has a lot of personality issues but when it comes to faith and being led by the Lord's Spirit, i have nothing to say because he is bearing fruit. And that is all that matters to Jesus. St Paul sais some teachers preach the gospel for their own glory, and although they will be lost but atleast others may hear God's word from them and be saved. I did judge them, didn't I. But it doesn't take an expert to see through these people. I could preach on how these Evangelists aren't legit. I could preach on how they in now way follow the apostolic succession. I could preach on how their "church" is nothing but schismatic. I could denounce them for all of these things. But I don't. Because I believe that what is in your heart defines your faith. You don't need to be an Armenian Orthodox Christian-- or belong to any other church for that matter-- to be a true believer (yes, there are issues with the sacraments, but what is in one's heart is what really matters). The point I was trying to make is that there are wolves in sheep skin in the Evangelical community-- and they go to the Evangelical churches because of the opportunity to make money. There are many fake and dishonest people. I was speaking of the likes of those "preachers" who manipulate the word and the faith of others to make fortunes. And these same people are the ones that go against what they preach. Take for example Jerry Falwell. These people claim to be preaching fundamentalism when their ideas actaully are a distortion of our religion. Edited February 11, 2006 by Vanetsi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 I did judge them, didn't I. But it doesn't take an expert to see through these people. I could preach on how these Evangelists aren't legit. I could preach on how they in now way follow the apostolic succession. I could preach on how their "church" is nothing but schismatic. I could denounce them for all of these things. But I don't. Because I believe that what is in your heart defines your faith. You don't need to be an Armenian Orthodox Christian-- or belong to any other church for that matter-- to be a true believer (yes, there are issues with the sacraments, but what is in one's heart is what really matters). The point I was trying to make is that there are wolves in sheep skin in the Evangelical community-- and they go to the Evangelical churches because of the opportunity to make money. There are many fake and dishonest people. I was speaking of the likes of those "preachers" who manipulate the word and the faith of others to make fortunes. And these same people are the ones that go against what they preach. Take for example Jerry Falwell. These people claim to be preaching fundamentalism when their ideas actaully are a distortion of our religion. "When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." " Acts 5:33-39 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Hi Djrak, how are you? I like to ask you pertaining to what you guys are talking about in reference to the Evangelists. It is quite true what Vanetsi is saying about most of them being wolves in sheepskin, because they are. But it is also true that whatever their intention and however they are wicked to pursue that career to make money for themselves; however they do make many other followers to be believing and walking with Christ and God. Now my question to you is this. Regardless that those Evangelists do good but with their wicked intent in the first place and also the fact that they don't lead the life that they preach; so when they do die, their souls will definitely be judjed severly by God and they will either not go to heaven or they may go to purgotary for a while before they'll be allowed to heaven, is that right? Or do you have to add to this statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Hi Djrak, how are you? I like to ask you pertaining to what you guys are talking about in reference to the Evangelists. It is quite true what Vanetsi is saying about most of them being wolves in sheepskin, because they are. But it is also true that whatever their intention and however they are wicked to pursue that career to make money for themselves; however they do make many other followers to be believing and walking with Christ and God. Now my question to you is this. Regardless that those Evangelists do good but with their wicked intent in the first place and also the fact that they don't lead the life that they preach; so when they do die, their souls will definitely be judjed severly by God and they will either not go to heaven or they may go to purgotary for a while before they'll be allowed to heaven, is that right? Or do you have to add to this statement. Hi Anahid, I'm fine, hope everything's ok with you too. I would just like to point out one little detail people overlook and because of that we tend to be too quick to judge others. I'm not trying to defend anyone but I learned to be more sceptical about what the media sais than what I see happenning as a result of faith and proof of the Lord's presence and work. Christians have always been persecuted and nothing's changed today. It may be on a different level but it's still the same. If those Evangelists are fakes it will show from the fruits of their work and if they are being attacked (especially from non-believers or so called "christian leaders") that gives me more proof that they are true. Now I can always be wrong but like I said earlier, all that matters to Jesus is that people get to know Him. There is nothing more important than that, in fact the whole Bible has one purpose and that is it. That is why He became a man and took on Himself the sins of the world that is why He was crucified, that is why He rose from the grave, that is why He send His Holy Spirit and that is what was planned from the very beginning. About your question: The Bible sais nothing about purgatory. It is something that Roman Catholics introduced. And whether they will be saved or not is something God will judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig9 Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Because I believe that what is in your heart defines your faith. You don't need to be an Armenian Orthodox Christian-- or belong to any other church for that matter-- to be a true believer (yes, there are issues with the sacraments, but what is in one's heart is what really matters). Hello Vanetsi, I agree with you with regarding the supposed "Christians" who turn Christianity into something you would buy on the Home Shopping Network, but I disagree with you regarding a persons heart that defines their faith, because the heart, just like the mind, can be tricked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zartonk Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Many people are coming to Christ and many are healed thru those Evangelists. Although they may have flaws, that doesnt make them unbelievers just as it doesnt make them perfect or orthodox in everything they do. All that matters is the Lord and our faith in Him. I dont like Benny Hinn myself not for the same reasons as you. i think he has a lot of personality issues but when it comes to faith and being led by the Lord's Spirit, i have nothing to say because he is bearing fruit. And that is all that matters to Jesus. I sure hope you don't mean literal, physical healing, because there can be nothing more superstitous and dangerous to advancement then believing that the action any mere mortal can effect the biological state of the human body and it's natural coarse. And I also have to disagree with you on the Televangelist. Faith alone doesn't mean a thing. You can claim and shout that you are "led by the Lord's Spirit" all day, and be the worst kind of crook and deciever. Belief doesn't justify behaviour. I think lots of rotten species are being mistaken for Jesus' "fruit". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 I sure hope you don't mean literal, physical healing, because there can be nothing more superstitous and dangerous to advancement then believing that the action any mere mortal can effect the biological state of the human body and it's natural coarse. Do you mean to say that healing spiritually is impossible? Or televangelists can't possibly heal people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 (edited) Zartonk, anyone who knows me knows well that I am the last person to buy into the "supernatural / spiritual / religious" mombo jumbo ... however, I am fairly convinced on the power of the mind over body. I think a lot of our ailments are not really physical and are mostly in our heads. Furthermore, how we "feel" often has a direct correlation in how we "are". That is why a "televangelist" can in fact "heal" a person if that person is stupid enough to believe that such a thing can be done! (ironically enough) I think it is a very non trivial and at the same time puzzling/distrubing thing to realize that you can have two identical persons, with identical biologies, and identical surroundings, etc etc ... yet one could be horribly misserable and the other be completely content and happy. It's all in those darn chemicals in the brain. ... or some people chose to call it "soul" (I don't think it is because soul has a bunch of supernatural connotations associated with it) ... but whatever name you chose to label it as, the phenomenon is there. As far as our metal state and our biologies, since the mind controls a lot of things that are going on in the body, I think our mental state can definitely impact our biological well being. The effects of stress on blood pressure and heart disease are one very common example but it doesn't have to be as simple as that. Edited February 14, 2006 by Sip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 What Sip calls a mumbo-jumbo is actually real facts. 1) You, I, everyonce have powers to heal ourselves - spiritually. That maybe prompted by televangelists or anyone whome we accept in that capacity, but they don't necessarily heal us 2) Spiritually advanced people can heal not only themselves but also others provided the others cooperate by accepting their healing 3) Ordinary people can heal others and themselves by sincere and deep prayer These are observed facts, not mumbo-jumbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vava Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 These are observed facts, not mumbo-jumbo I don't want to get into this argument again. But it was once also an "observed fact" that the world was flat - unfortunately enough. I entirely accept that when it comes to human health, phsychological and biological boundaries are blurred - physical well-being has a definite impact upon mental well-being and vice-versa. All this solely within the individual. Where I see a problem is with claim that someone else's mental well-being (or spirituality, call is as you wish) can have a direct impact upon another's physical conditions. I don't think that sort of healing is anymore fact-based than the flat earth. True, one person can guide another's mental/physical balance and help them heal themselves - but that's not the direct type of healing that we're referring to here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 I don't want to get into this argument again. But it was once also an "observed fact" that the world was flat - unfortunately enough. I entirely accept that when it comes to human health, phsychological and biological boundaries are blurred - physical well-being has a definite impact upon mental well-being and vice-versa. All this solely within the individual. Where I see a problem is with claim that someone else's mental well-being (or spirituality, call is as you wish) can have a direct impact upon another's physical conditions. I don't think that sort of healing is anymore fact-based than the flat earth. True, one person can guide another's mental/physical balance and help them heal themselves - but that's not the direct type of healing that we're referring to here. No Vava, I have to disagree. Flat earth was never an observed fact. Portions of earth were observed to be approximately flat, that was all that was observed. As to healing, it is an observed fact because you can see somebody is sick then somebody else heals him and he is no longer sick. I call it an observed fact. Often it is also repatedly observed which makes it a more reliable observation. The reason many people are skeptical regarding healing is because there are many cases of hoax, superstition or cases where the healing happened naturally while it was attributed to spiritual healing. Nevertheless, there are also true cases of healing though these are the minority of the known cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 What Sip calls a mumbo-jumbo is actually real facts. 1) You, I, everyonce have powers to heal ourselves - spiritually. That maybe prompted by televangelists or anyone whome we accept in that capacity, but they don't necessarily heal us 2) Spiritually advanced people can heal not only themselves but also others provided the others cooperate by accepting their healing 3) Ordinary people can heal others and themselves by sincere and deep prayer These are observed facts, not mumbo-jumbo The reason why in medical emergency cases the ambulance will take one to the nearest church or an evangelist’s TV studio. That is why Christian Science reading rooms are under the dept. of health and welfare The reason why exorcism and other mumbo jumbo covered by most health insurance companies. In case we may have forgotten mental illness is caused by demons and physical sickness by bad wind. The reason why we “beat the devil out” of the mentally ill and we “beat the sh*t out” of physically ill. And all those are covered by medical insurance, Medicaid and Medicare. And finally, the reason why in Armenia having one’s head read over is considered medical practice, and medical students are taught grabar so they can read the Narek over their patients. That is where the Armenian saying gna glokh@d kartal tur comes from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 (edited) The reason why in medical emergency cases the ambulance will take one to the nearest church or an evangelist’s TV studio. That is why Christian Science reading rooms are under the dept. of health and welfare The reason why exorcism and other mumbo jumbo covered by most health insurance companies. In case we may have forgotten mental illness is caused by demons and physical sickness by bad wind. The reason why we “beat the devil out” of the mentally ill and we “beat the sh*t out” of physically ill. And all those are covered by medical insurance, Medicaid and Medicare. And finally, the reason why in Armenia having one’s head read over is considered medical practice, and medical students are taught grabar so they can read the Narek over their patients. That is where the Armenian saying gna glokh@d kartal tur comes from. This may seem like a good opportunity to be cynical but you are missing the point and lacking the logic as usual. Spiritual healing does not deny medical healing, at least in my understanding. I believe I have not claimed otherwise, so you should not conclude any of your cynical comments from what I said. Perhaps this will introduce some logic to you, unless you miss it again. As to healing, it is an observed fact because you can see somebody is sick then somebody else heals him and he is no longer sick. I call it an observed fact. Often it is also repatedly observed which makes it a more reliable observation. Edited February 15, 2006 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanetsi Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Hello Vanetsi, I agree with you with regarding the supposed "Christians" who turn Christianity into something you would buy on the Home Shopping Network, but I disagree with you regarding a persons heart that defines their faith, because the heart, just like the mind, can be tricked. Hi Ludwig, What I meant was that it is important that a person has the right belief (and yes, there is indeed a right one-- one with many takes) in their heart. You're right about someone being fooled; it could happen. But my point is that anyone could be faithful. If what you're saying is that the sacraments play a big role, then I do agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 This may seem like a good opportunity to be cynical but you are missing the point and lacking the logic as usual. Spiritual healing does not deny medical healing, at least in my understanding.[/] I believe I have not claimed otherwise, so you should not conclude any of your cynical comments from what I said. Perhaps this will introduce some logic to you, unless you miss it again. Sasun jan; I actually know people who had cancer and through healing prayers their cancer cells were dramatically minimized then gone altogether. I know through prayers in unison cases as such has happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Sasun jan; I actually know people who had cancer and through healing prayers their cancer cells were dramatically minimized then gone altogether. I know through prayers in unison cases as such has happened. Many people get healed in payers, from the slightest neck pain to cancer. I've seen handicapped people stand up, i've seen people who cant hear, hear in Jesus' name... it happens almost everyday here in our prayers . The Lord is mercyful. Without faith the "mortal" or "spiritually dead" human mind cannot comprehend or accept this. I know i didn't before coming to Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Many people get healed in payers, from the slightest neck pain to cancer. I've seen handicapped people stand up, i've seen people who cant hear, hear in Jesus' name... it happens almost everyday here in our prayers . The Lord is mercyful. Without faith the "mortal" or "spiritually dead" human mind cannot comprehend or accept this. I know i didn't before coming to Christ. Amen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 (edited) Faith alone doesn't mean a thing. You can claim and shout that you are "led by the Lord's Spirit" all day, and be the worst kind of crook and deciever. Belief doesn't justify behaviour. I think lots of rotten species are being mistaken for Jesus' "fruit". I agree, there are a lot of false teachers out there. That doesnt mean they're all fakes. But I know one thing: If something is from God (not men) it will bear much fruit, so much that the devil will go mad and play with people's minds so they can attack them. But those with a firm faith will not be moved. It is impossible to bring anything to its completion and success without Christ. And I mean anything. I use to start many projects of my own and always either get bored halfway or stop liking it or fail or just not be satisfied with it or the accomplishment after it's done. With Jesus everything's beatiful and smooth. The Lord is very generous, His blessings have no end. Faith is not a theoretical thing it is an actual function in human beings. Something that needs to be fed and trained. It is the God-man connection without which our lives are empty and dry. The only reason why anyone would not believe in the miracles of the Lord is that the devil has blinded them. They are spiritually asleep. Only Christ is the light of the world. Only He can enlighten our entire being and lead us to salvation. Edited February 15, 2006 by Djrak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 (edited) If something is from God (not men) it will bear much fruit, so mulch that the devil will go mad and pay with people's minds so they can attack them. But those with a firm faith will not be moved. It is impossible to bring anything to its completion and success without Christ. And I mean anything. I use to start many projects of my own and always either get bored halfway or stop liking it or fail or just not be satisfied with it or the accomplishment after it's done. With Jesus everything's beatiful and smooth. The Lord is very generous, His blessings have no end. Faith is not a theoretical thing it is an actual function in human beings. Something that needs to be fed and trained. It is the God-man connection without which our lives are empty and dry. The only reason why anyone would not believe in the miracles of the Lord is that the devil has blinded them. They are spiritually asleep. Only Christ is the light of the world. Only He can enlighten our entire being and lead us to salvation. AMEN. Took the words right out of my mouth, or should I say, typed the words right out of my hands Edited February 15, 2006 by sSebB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 I use to start many projects of my own and always either get bored halfway or stop liking it or fail or just not be satisfied with it or the accomplishment after it's done. With Jesus everything's beatiful and smooth. The Lord is very generous, His blessings have no end. Maybe Microsoft will add a new Jesus App Wizzard to the next version of the .Net framework to get big-budget corporate projects started. Sorry it's a bad joke but I just couldn't resist. I've turned to Jesus many times before but he has NEVER been of any help when it comes to debugging Visual C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 I've turned to Jesus many times before but he has NEVER been of any help when it comes to debugging Visual C That's because you don't trust Him completely. And i'm not joking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djrak Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Took the words right out of my mouth, or should I say, typed the words right out of my hands Christ's Body (the Church) is the greatest thing there is on earth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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