Exposing Christianity

[Sasun]

Sasun, I hope you are reading this thread and you finally realize what I have been saying about "believers".

Djark: About my definitions of spirituality and religion ...

 

Religion -- it tells you what to think.

 

Spirituality -- it is YOUR personal quest on what to think.

 

Both spirituality and religion often lack a fundamental basis and rely mainly on assumptions, hearsay, superstition, and imagination. But I can respect spirituality faaaaar more than I will ever respect most religions. Religion is a very convinient escape for a lazy mind. You just take everything as given and stop to question things. That is just sad.

Sip, there are different ways to view religion. I don't differentiate much between religion and spirituality, by that I adhere to a more general defnition of religion. Most people undersand religion by the way they practice, for example, attending to church services, doing rituals, and proclaiming their religion to be the only true religion. This is a narrow sense of religion, which I don't agree with. In this narrow sense religion really is the beginning of a spiritual journey. It is like a kindergarten step in spirituality. Of course, in kindergarten you won't expect a lot of independent thinking.

 

My definition of religion: a framework of practices, scriptures and intuitively derived thruths for ones spiritual development and for greater understanding among humanity. To me Christian religion is much the same as Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaims and Islam. All these religions are fine and good to me because they are the same in essense. Why? Because I pay less attention to rituals, dogmas and superficial differences. To me Jesus Christ is in essense the same as Buddha or Krishna or Moses. Why? Because they all, in essense, have born more or less the same priceless message in different ages and places that will liberate the humanity.

 

So, as you can see there is a lot of difference between my definition, your definition, and the definition of Seb, Djrak and others. We will never agree on anything unless we agree on a common definition for several key words such as "religion", "god", "spirituality", etc.

[Sasun]

They all say that it was written either by Gods inspiration or by a dream. Why would other religions say that Jesus is God they are the competators. What if one day I decide to write a good moral and ethical book with rules, regulations and say that I was inspired by God. Would you believe me? If not why?

The reason holy books are holy books is because they talk about truths. Truth is an inner realization that everyone can achieve. People who truly think that Bible is a holy book do so because the messages in the Bible are intuitively appealing to them. It is not because they cannot think for themselves and are merely accepting what they are told. Yeah, there are also many in this category who accept the Bible because they were born in a Christian family, so they didn't think much about it.

[Yervant1]

All holy books preach these qualities that you are mentioning and many other qualities that one needs to have. In other words, there ar moral codes or cammandments, known by different names to different religions. All these things make up the essense of all religions.

Yes I agree with you that all religions have these qualities in them, but organized religion as such got us nowhere beside getting lot's of people killed.

Greed in human nature will not go away any time soon and lot's of people will die because of it. At least we could have avoided the religious deaths and hatred for one another.

I rather see us all humans, than religious groupings. I don't know if I was able to explain myself?

[Sasun]

What is faith? It is a function in human beings just like thinking, eating, reading etc...

Good observation. Let's continue this thought. People think differently and they like to think about different things, no two people think alike. People like to eat different types and amounts of food. People also like to read different subjects, different authors, even if they read the same book they understand it differently. Do you see that faith also cannot be the same for all.

There are various religions and there is a very good reason for that. No single religion is the only right religion, they maybe right for their followers because they like that religion just like they like this food over another food. But because you like pasta you can't claim that sushi is a false food. God meant to have variety in the world so let's welcome variety in all aspects of life including religion.

I hope this will help you realize that your religion is not the only true religion.

[Takoush]

On this thought I'd like to add that in regards what Seb said earlier and how Edward answered to Seb defending Anoushik's right of her religion and of her right to her beliefs. You are very young Seb and you have Christian beliefs as I do, but I happen to agree with both Sasun and Edward on this matter, that unless someone is putting down your God and being disrespectful to you or your God; sorry Seb but you and I cannot put them down, their beliefs nor their different religion. Especially when they are decent and good human beings; that's more of a reason to give them the just respect that they rightfully deserve.

 

I'll tell you a small story from my own life, Seb. When my father died of a sudden heart attack; I of course went to pieces and was extremely saddened by it and for a short while I was very angry with God that I thought then He took away my beloved father away from me. As I was brought up as an Armenian and a Lousavorchagan girl; I came to grips with with my father's death, then I thought perhaps God had nothing to do with it.

 

Why I have told you this story is because I can also understand Anoushik, because I remember at another given time she has mentioned that where was God when I believe in l987 when thousands of Armenians have died at around Leninakan region I think, where that horrible earthquake happened. That so many Armenians died, including I think she said, that her aunt's whole family went under the earthquake and have died. On that note, I can relate to and understand Anoushik's anger as I have felt the same thing when my father suddenly died and he was taken away from me, I thought abruptly.

 

Basically what I'm saying Seb is that we have to be understanding of what other people have felt or gone through or perhaps their loved ones or their friends have gone through it, and so they feel for them and for their griefs. You must exercise patience, understanding of other's and how they may feel; and if they do decide in life that they don't wish to become Christians after all; oh well, we must accept them, respect them and or love them for what they are, regardless of their differences of opinions, beliefs or reglions.

[Yervant1]

The reason holy books are holy books is because they talk about truths. Truth is an inner realization that everyone can achieve. People who truly think that Bible is a holy book do so because the messages in the Bible are intuitively appealing to them. It is not because they cannot think for themselves and are merely accepting what they are told. Yeah, there are also many in this category who accept the Bible because they were born in a Christian family, so they didn't think much about it.

Sasun you say holy books are holy because they talk about truths. How do you know it talks about the truth? May be it is the truth may be not. We all assume one way or another. As you say it's an inner realization and people come to different conclusions and we should respect that.

There is no truth in issues that are not certain and proven they are just ideas some will accept and others will not. I avoid claiming that the truth is on my side at all times and yet it seems many people are claiming that the truth is on their side.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Yervant1

[Anoushik]

Anoushik, isn't it funny that you have no reply to my post?

sSebB, I didn't reply to your post because I found it unfruitful to go through my own post and word for word explain to you what I meant when I said I let people, such as Faulkner and Beethoven, guide me through life. You clearly misunderstood me and I don't want to repeat what I write.

 

You are right in the regards that I participated in this thread even though I said I wouldn't. I can't help it. If you write thought provoking questions/answers regarding your belief in God, rather than dismissing all who don't believe in God as being blind, then I'll very well answer to your posts. I'm not kidding when I say I don't have much time to participate in Hyeforum discussions.

[Anoushik]

Why I have told you this story is because I can also understand Anoushik, because I remember at another given time she has mentioned that where was God when I believe in l987 when thousands of Armenians have died at around Leninakan region I think, where that horrible earthquake happened. That so many Armenians died, including I think she said, that her aunt's whole family went under the earthquake and have died. On that note, I can relate to and understand Anoushik's anger as I have felt the same thing when my father suddenly died and he was taken away from me, I thought abruptly.

Anahid, I didn't lose a single relative in the 1988 earthquake. And I'm not angry at God. How can I be angry at Him if I know there is no God?

[Anoushik]

Anoushik jan, my sincere advice would be to focus on the positive aspects of life, such as music and all things beautiful, then perhaps you will see where God fits in.

And I am, therefore, ultimately, I can see myself as being optimist, as opposed to a lot of "religious" people I know who constantly complain about their lives. I am the one who always focus their attention on the many good things they have in their lives.

[Anoushik]

Why only Hebrew? Is He not intelligent enough to learn Armenian that we have to read His words in some other goddam language??!!

Or, why not write in every language? It would certainly eliminate most of the crisis facing the world regarding many religions and views about religion.

[Takoush]

Anahid, I didn't lose a single relative in the 1988 earthquake. And I'm not angry at God. How can I be angry at Him if I know there is no God?

Then I didn't remember correctly Anoushik; I spoke from memory and I thought that you said either a relative or a good friend have lost all her family who's about 45-50 yrs. old and she now lives all alone in a small one room apt. in Yerevan, I believe. But be as it may. I thought also that you have said or implied at that point that where was God then? I thought that you were clearly angry with Him. That's how I did remember, and so I made a connection with my own life experience.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Djrak]

This is from another forum, a member replied to the head topic of: What does "dying to self" mean to you?

This was his reply, It think it is very interesting and on point and I just felt like posting it here for you:

 

There is an amazing life of impossible love that is available

to any human being who will abandon everything

else in order to possess it. If you have ever been loved or

been in love, you have touched it. If you have ever given

yourself entirely to another person for their benefit and your

loss, you have tasted it. If you have ever witnessed this kind

of selfless life in action, you may have been captivated by

wonder or helpless adoration.

This heroic experience is the pinnacle of human existence.

It’s the pinnacle because its price is a life given away

for another person. This gift is a present possibility in every

moment of every day, but it can never be coerced.

Entry into this way of life appears to be a paradox. From

the perspective of selfish survival and personal achievement,

the idea is insanity. It is incompatible with selfish ego. It

cannot coexist with pride or greed.

This life involves gaining by giving, winning by losing,

it’s backwards, ridiculous, and upside-down.

This life is counterintuitive, countercultural, and seems

counterproductive.

It‘s the antithesis of survival of the fittest because it’s

living by dying.

It’s a path to freedom that requires us to choose slavery.

We all recognize this kind of life when we see it. We are

exhilarated when we experience it. This elusive life of love,

passion, and purpose we all crave appears just beyond our

grasp. Though we desire it, we fear it because to achieve

such a life will ultimately cost us our own.

Life without this kind of love is only a selfish subhuman

existence. Though it occasionally sparkles like a precious

gem, it usually results in an endless search for a treasure—a

treasure we know is there, but never seem to find.

Phil

[Anoushik]

Ok, if we agree that the majority of humankind is negative, knowing that at one time or another it will be destructive, then why would want to put our faith in knowing well enough that it’s bound to destroy itself sooner or later?

That's where humanism comes in. I know that in my posts I must seem to be a very pessimist person who is angry at the world and is not happy about her life. That's not true. I'm very happy about my life and I know that I'm very fotunate to be granted a life where I'm constantly surrounded by good people. And so, I hope that the future will bring the same fate to my descendands.

In my opinion, evil, in the simplest terms is an action. The reason why anything can be considered evil is because its actions are contrary to what is good.

I'm sorry, I don't understand. You mean any action can be evil?

If you believe that life has a point, then you believe you have a purpose in it. And if you believe that you have a purpose in life then there exists something within you, and us, which has placed that purpose in us and, if something has placed a purpose in us then that something must be greater then us because it knows our purpose and we don’t.

And I don't deny it. I've always maintained that there must be something greater than us, because we are here, breathing, conversing, expressing ideas. There must be something. Yet, I don't call that being God. It's just my own opinion, of course, as we are all entitled to have an opinion.

But who defines what those qualities are? And what might be considered best for one might mean the worst for another.

We, the people, do. Anything that is not destructive and proves itself to be good for humanity of earth can be considered good. Ex., helping others (as one might be in a situation where one needs help himself), not killing (because killing leads to the extinction of species), passing on knowledge to the future generation, etc. These are all qualities that can collectively be defined as morality. Believers always say where do atheists get their morality, since they believe morality comes from religion. But not so. Morality, or just good actions that humans do on earth, comes from experience of generations of people having lived their lives on earth. People understand that society functions better when people don't kill and lend a helping hand to those in need. Where do you think law and order comes from?

[Anoushik]

Then I didn't remember correctly Anoushik; I spoke from memory and I thought that you said either a relative or a good friend have lost all her family who's about 45-50 yrs. old and she now lives all alone in a small one room apt. in Yerevan, I believe. But be as it may. I thought also that you have said or implied at that point that where was God then? I thought that you were clearly angry with Him. That's how I did remember, and so I made a connection with my own life experience.

You have a good memory

 

Yes, I did talk about a woman who appeared on H1 on the annivarsary of the earthquake. And I did say where was God then? My point being, that God doesn't exist. I'm not angry at Him.

 

Anahid, let's take that woman for example. She is a human being. She is an individual. She is not just a statistic. She has only one life to live. She had a husband, she had children, she raised her children, and in a second everything was taken away from her. It's not easy to imagine what she must go through. We can only experience our own life experiences. But can you at least for a second put yourself in her shoes? I think some of us are more susceptible to others' pains than the rest of us. And I think that's why so many humanists are atheists. Again and again life has proven to me that "religious" people are the least affected by others' pain than non-religious.

[Takoush]

Anoushik jan; you know what? I had to think and remember for a minute and I know why you are saying that, and I don't blame you for not regarding highly to most Christians. I am a Christian and I go to my Church and I sing in the choir, yet you don't know how many times I have been kicked right in the tusch because of this or that unrealistic reasons. I can't explain to you how many times; and though I am a Christian too but I have been and am quite a sensitive human being; but just because I have minded my own business yet I was always an idealistic sort but didn't jump at anyone and they saw through me that they can hurt me; they did plenty. The so called very religious people that were supposed to be my sisters and or brothers. I have mostly been hurt by them; so yes I can understand where you're coming from when you say that they are the most insensitive ones. However, most of them Anoushik, they don't really pracitce Christianity, rather they just go to Church to show themselves off, to dress up nice and to gossip. To me, they are not fit to be called Christians, really. They are fit to stay outside of the Church; because all they do is cause malice to the gentler and the true Christians.

 

For 4 plus years, I haven't gone to Church myself, because of those people. Because I thought I don't belong with them. And for the past one year, again I tried again and again and they don't seem to change. So now, even though I really have a good voice to give solos as I have and my voice is high C' but I am not moved to go to Church because I don't want to meet them and be among them.

 

However, even though I pretty much practice Christianity yet when I see anyone hurt or upset, I cry for them and I cry with them. I happen to feel for people that are in need and are hurt. So, in answer to your question about how I would feel if I were that poor woman; I would say, I wish I was dead with my loved ones rather than to be alive. In Christianity though, you cannot wish to be dead, but they say you have to pray to God a lot to give you solace and comfort. Anyway, that's what they say Anoushik jan.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Sasun]

She has only one life to live.

Don't be so sure about it

[Sasun]

Sasun you say holy books are holy because they talk about truths. How do you know it talks about the truth? May be it is the truth may be not. We all assume one way or another. As you say it's an inner realization and people come to different conclusions and we should respect that.

There is no truth in issues that are not certain and proven they are just ideas some will accept and others will not. I avoid claiming that the truth is on my side at all times and yet it seems many people are claiming that the truth is on their side.

OK, let me ask you a question: what is truth?

[aSoldier]

sorry Seb but you and I cannot put them down, their beliefs nor their different religion. Especially when they are decent and good human beings; that's more of a reason to give them the just respect that they rightfully deserve.

 

What?

[Anoushik]

Don't be so sure about it

Sasun, you know very well that my discussion about religion apply to the Christian beliefs (And not only my discussions, but the majority of participants in this thread.)

[Anoushik]

In Christianity though, you cannot wish to be dead, but they say you have to pray to God a lot to give you solace and comfort. Anyway, that's what they say Anoushik jan.

What do you say, Anahid?

[aSoldier]

Anahid, let's take that woman for example. She is a human being. She is an individual. She is not just a statistic. She has only one life to live. She had a husband, she had children, she raised her children, and in a second everything was taken away from her. It's not easy to imagine what she must go through. We can only experience our own life experiences. But can you at least for a second put yourself in her shoes? I think some of us are more susceptible to others' pains than the rest of us. And I think that's why so many humanists are atheists. Again and again life has proven to me that "religious" people are the least affected by others' pain than non-religious.

 

He gives as quick as He takes away.

 

Do you know the story of Job?

[Takoush]

What do you say, Anahid?

Anoushik, I would still say if God forbid something of that sort happened to my loved ones, I wish I was dead. May God forgive me for saying it; but I cannot help myself; after all I am a human being. That's what I say, Anoushik.

Edited February 19, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[Anoushik]

He gives as quick as He takes away.

 

Do you know the story of Job?

Job got his family back, actually, it wasn't his real family, but an improved, more beautiful family. If you believe the story about Job, then you must believe the rest of the Old Testament. Am I right?

[Takoush]

How many times must we repeat ourselves?

 

You, Anoushik, and other non-believers always ask the same questions, which we answer, and stick by your accusations & assumptions, even though we have proven that it is not how you say.

 

When will it stop?

Seb; I was referring to this statement. That even though you and I are of the same Christian beliefs; but you cannot call her non-believer. Though she doesn't believe in Christianity but she's a human being with humanistic beliefs and does her good deeds in this world, to society in general, and thus she's a decent human being.

Edited February 19, 2006 by Anahid Takouhi

[phantom22]

Anahid and all:

 

Are we speaking of walking in the "steps of Jesus" or in the steps of he hierarchies that are organized Christianity?

 

To be a true Christian one must "walk in the steps" of Jesus. How many of you have spent years studying hundreds of books about the mission of Jesus? How many of you have truly followed the suggestion of Jesus to "seek, seek and you shall find" the kingdom of heaven? Anyone can claim to be a Christian (a follower of the teachings of Christ). It is the practice of Christianity that has been corrupted and must be exposed for what it is. I relish this because it will bring to light the true teachings and nature of Jesus, including his deep devotion to his wife and children. So sad that his descendants have had to live in fear of exposure and death for all these centuries.

 

 

Anoushik jan; you know what? I had to think and remember for a minute and I know why you are saying that, and I don't blame you for not regarding highly to most Christians. I am a Christian and I go to my Church and I sing in the choir, yet you don't know how many times I have been kicked right in the tusch because of this or that unrealistic reasons. I can't explain to you how many times; and though I am a Christian too but I have been and am quite a sensitive human being; but just because I have minded my own business yet I was always an idealistic sort but didn't jump at anyone and they saw through me that they can hurt me; they did plenty. The so called very religious people that were supposed to be my sisters and or brothers. I have mostly been hurt by them; so yes I can understand where you're coming from when you say that they are the most insensitive ones. However, most of them Anoushik, they don't really pracitce Christianity, rather they just go to Church to show themselves off, to dress up nice and to gossip. To me, they are not fit to be called Christians, really. They are fit to stay outside of the Church; because all they do is cause malice to the gentler and the true Christians.

 

For 4 plus years, I haven't gone to Church myself, because of those people. Because I thought I don't belong with them. And for the past one year, again I tried again and again and they don't seem to change. So now, even though I really have a good voice to give solos as I have and my voice is high C' but I am not moved to go to Church because I don't want to meet them and be among them.

 

However, even though I pretty much practice Christianity yet when I see anyone hurt or upset, I cry for them and I cry with them. I happen to feel for people that are in need and are hurt. So, in answer to your question about how I would feel if I were that poor woman; I would say, I wish I was dead with my loved ones rather than to be alive. In Christianity though, you cannot wish to be dead, but they say you have to pray to God a lot to give you solace and comfort. Anyway, that's what they say Anoushik jan.