aSoldier Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Like what? Like mental/spiritual...Even you have a mental side...Thinking is mental...Not hard to understand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Oh really Where is that written? Instead of quting the Bible, sit down, clear your mind and answer logically.. Someone who has done good his whooole life, who has been the purest kind but does not believe in God.. He is doomed right? How fair! Obviously you did not understand. Someone who has done good and is pure, but does not believe in God...has he even heard of God? If he has not...then theres a chance he will go to heaven. Because this person believes they are doing the right thing their whole lives, they are convinced they will go to heaven. If you were a Muslim, and followed God your whole life, worshiped and prayed 5 times a day and did everything a good Muslim should do, will he go to heaven? Yes, because he is judged on his knowledge of God. However, someone who knows God, but rejects him, goes to hell. Understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloren Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Someone who has done good and is pure, but does not believe in God...has he even heard of God? If he has not...then theres a chance he will go to heaven. Because this person believes they are doing the right thing their whole lives, they are convinced they will go to heaven. Someone who does not believe in God, does also not believe in heaven or hell.. So he cannot be convinced he is going to heaven because he is good.. He is doing good because he wants it. Because it's more healthy, or because of society rules.. So no it still doesn't make sense. If you were a Muslim, and followed God your whole life, worshiped and prayed 5 times a day and did everything a good Muslim should do, will he go to heaven? Yes, because he is judged on his knowledge of God. However, someone who knows God, but rejects him, goes to hell. Understand? You are contradicting yourself.... We will be judge on the knowledge of God.. Not believing in Him makes us have no knowledge on Him.. so even if we do Good, we will still go to Hell aren't we? Because of no knowledge! You should explain clearly what it means "to have knowledge on God". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 I just hope one day you "spritual/religious" people will open your eyes and master what I have already mastered. Don't knock what I have come to realize until you have experienced and mastered it yourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 (edited) I find it... disturbing.. to say: "So unfortunate for these people to suffer" while maybe most of them are good christians and are asking help from god every single day... I have seen little fairies once when i was younger, they spoke to me also and showd me a little secret.. No jokes.. Now do you really believe me? If not, explain why. Eloren: I also find it disturbing for you to quote me only partially and leave out the more important part of my quote and say disturbing. Not so right on your part. Here's what I said, I hope you don't misquote me a second time: "It' very unfortunate and devastating to the sufferers and to the people that have gone through such horrible miseries." About the rest of your question about Christians seeking help from God every single day.... look back again to this thread and also the Armenian Apostolic Church thread and see if maybe this time it'll transpire to you. Also I suggest to read the Bible from beginning to end bit by bit and see if it'll talk to you (don't take this literally) or maybe you'll learn something from it. See if that helps. On your second paragraph, what you're trying to tell me is that you don't believe me or Djrak about the existence of God or the Lord Jesus. Well I have this to say to you. The time will come that you will find the truth all by yourself. Edited December 6, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 (edited) Obviously you did not understand. Someone who has done good and is pure, but does not believe in God...has he even heard of God? If he has not...then theres a chance he will go to heaven. Because this person believes they are doing the right thing their whole lives, they are convinced they will go to heaven. If you were a Muslim, and followed God your whole life, worshiped and prayed 5 times a day and did everything a good Muslim should do, will he go to heaven? Yes, because he is judged on his knowledge of God. However, someone who knows God, but rejects him, goes to hell. Understand? This is a good explaination sSebB. You are right on target. Edited December 6, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloren Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Yes i know I partially quoted you, it was just an example, we cannot make judgments like that and say that it's really sad for those people that suffer while a lot of them have faith in God.. Specially when we are trying to proove that following God is the path to happiness.. What have all these poor people done? On your second paragraph, what you're trying to tell me is that you don't believe me or Djrak about the existence of God or the Lord Jesus. Well I have this to say to you. The time will come that you will find the truth all by yourself. I am not saying I did not believe you I am just asking if YOU believe me, and if not i'd like you to explain to me why you don't believe. And time will come when i will find the truth? Well maybe, who knows.. Maybe you will also suddenly ask yourself some questions and find the truth by yourself too Till then, let us all enjoy our lives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 (edited) Oh I am! According to sSebB, 83% of the people are still stuck in that box. Basically I think the discussion between you and I boils down to the fact that you claim your beliefs are aquired through information that somehow get to your brain through means not connected to your physical senses ... well, dear friend, to me, that is immagination. A lot of great ideas have originated by sheer immagination so I do not take the power of the mind to come up with great ideas lightly. But at the same time, I do not think basing our phillosophies on immagination and things not tied to our physical reality is a good idea. In other words, I also disagree with sSebB that there are other things in our universe that are not physical. Those things are NOT real. They are figments of our immagination. I guess the differece is, I am much more practical in what I consider real. Ah, Sip, so spiritual people cannot tell imagination from experience? How do you know what is going on in someone else's mind? You are so sure that it is iamgination, but on what basis can you say that? In most cases peaple can tell when they are imagining. Another thing is, according to those who experience through the spiritual eye, one can see the past and the future. Seeing the future can be simply verified by waiting and seeing, so if your vision does not materialize then you can say OK that was not true. But if your vision takes place in reality then it cannot be imagination, can it? Spiritually advanced people have seen long ago what scientists are discovering now. Those things are actually recorded, you just don't know, and given that you are so attached to materialism the chances are you will never try to know. Basically, Sip, you call the pictures of reality a reality and deny that there is an actual reality beyond the pictures. I disagree, reality is most real only when observed directly. What we see through our senses and analyze with our minds are pictures of reality, not the reality itself. This is what materialism is about. Pictures of reality, or the material world, is real too, but it is real only as pictures. There is a higher and permanent reality beyond matter, and that is what spirituality is about. Edited December 6, 2005 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 (edited) I just hope one day you "spritual/religious" people will open your eyes and master what I have already mastered. Don't knock what I have come to realize until you have experienced and mastered it yourself Sip, you have not realized anything special. What you are talking about is basically, believe in your eyes, senses, touch, etc... everyone does that, who does not? But from there, you are making an invalid conclusion, that basically, if your eyes cannot see then it cannot be true. Edited December 6, 2005 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Obviously you did not understand. Someone who has done good and is pure, but does not believe in God...has he even heard of God? If he has not...then theres a chance he will go to heaven. Because this person believes they are doing the right thing their whole lives, they are convinced they will go to heaven. If you were a Muslim, and followed God your whole life, worshiped and prayed 5 times a day and did everything a good Muslim should do, will he go to heaven? Yes, because he is judged on his knowledge of God. However, someone who knows God, but rejects him, goes to hell. Understand? I agree, a very good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Sipan: Des, what Sasun was telling you is that until you give it a chance to experience it and hence develop it you will not become the master of it. Same as your knowledge and love for science. He was trying to get to you through something like an analogy by comparing your knowledge of science with this phenomena if you want to call it that, or your spritual eye, and of your potential belief in Him. Basically, if you don't practice and open up your heart, your brain and soul to spirituality you cannot knock it down until you experience it. And even that will take time, effort and learning in the subject matter until you become the master of it. Maybe one day. Sassun did I put it right? Yes, that's how I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 I just hope one day you "spritual/religious" people will open your eyes and master what I have already mastered. Don't knock what I have come to realize until you have experienced and mastered it yourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Yes, that's how I understand. Thank you Sasun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 (edited) Yes i know I partially quoted you, it was just an example, we cannot make judgments like that and say that it's really sad for those people that suffer while a lot of them have faith in God.. Specially when we are trying to proove that following God is the path to happiness.. What have all these poor people done? I am not saying I did not believe you I am just asking if YOU believe me, and if not i'd like you to explain to me why you don't believe. And time will come when i will find the truth? Well maybe, who knows.. Maybe you will also suddenly ask yourself some questions and find the truth by yourself too Till then, let us all enjoy our lives Eloren: Yes by all means, let us enjoy our life and I sincerely wish you and everyone in here the very best, the safest and the happiest moments in this life that all of you will be living on earth here with me; and I hope and wish that it will be a very very lengthy one, with my fingers crossed. However, I also have news for you. I have found the truth, and the truth that I have found it is in the almighty and the benevolent God. Edited December 6, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Sip, you have not realized anything special. What you are talking about is basically, believe in your eyes, senses, touch, etc... everyone does that, who does not? But from there, you are making an invalid conclusion, that basically, if your eyes cannot see then it cannot be true. Sasun, more than 90% of the people in the US still believe God is somehow influencing our world. More than 40% actually think God created man in his own image in the last 10,000 years. You still think I'm not saying anything special? In fact, I am saying something very special. I keep it real! It is human nature to get caught up in our imaginary worlds. Make up fancy and often very simplistic explanations for things we don't understand. I am outside of that simplistic box. I acknowledge things we don't understand as that: things we DO NOT understand. I do not try to come up with all sorts of non-sensical (yes, pun intended) ways to arrive at facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Sip, you have still not answered me. Do you recognize a multiverse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Sasun, more than 90% of the people in the US still believe God is somehow influencing our world. More than 40% actually think God created man in his own image in the last 10,000 years. You still think I'm not saying anything special? Yeah, but they don't reject what their senses tell them. It's just that in addition to material things they also believe in other things. BTW, I am not speaking on their behalf, my analysis does not pertain to them. I am speaking about an additional source of knowledge, not denying our senses as such. Having said this, I don't see how your point connects to my point. In fact, I am saying something very special. I keep it real! Actually, I too keep it to real But we have different understandings of reality. It is human nature to get caught up in our imaginary worlds. Make up fancy and often very simplistic explanations for things we don't understand. I am outside of that simplistic box. I acknowledge things we don't understand as that: things we DO NOT understand. Well, I agree to that point that often we humans would like to imagine simplistic explanations, but nevertheless it is not hard to figure out what is imagined and what is not. If for some that is not the case then perhaps they live in a box. So basically, the majority of people have their own boxes. It maybe a church-dogma box, a materialistic box, a flat-earth box or a box that even they don't understand. I am afraid you have put yourself in a materialistic box thinking matter is all the reality there ever is. I can understand a statement of "I don't understand", but I cannot see how "We don't understand" could follow from that. How do you know that WE, each and every one of us don't understand? I do not try to come up with all sorts of non-sensical (yes, pun intended) ways to arrive at facts. Well, well, you are denying an alternative route of arriving at knowledge. I don't know who you were in your past life but I am sure you were not Columbus I would suggest to think about your senses and the physiology of learning and you will see that my analysis above is valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Sasun do you remember my 11th comendment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 (edited) So Sasun: What's our Ed's 11th commandment? We want to know as well. Please let us know. @Ed. Edo jan: You don't mind if he shares it with us? I am curious. Edited December 7, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 No Anahid jan I dont mind, by all means he can share with you but I can tell you myself ...it goes something like this Thou shalt those keep the religion to themselves! or the 11th ( which is my fayvorit) is Everyone has got to belive in something................I belive I'll have a drink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Ed jan: I think we deserve that because we talked about it at length for a loooooooooooooooong time now. But maybe you have something there that we must keep it to ourselves. That's what my mother tells me anyhow, I should've listened to her. About the drink; it's funny, but we must have a mental telepathy about this; because when I was watching yours and others' posts I automatically went to the refrigerator and poured myself a large glass of nice red wine and drank it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 refrigerator red wine Anahid make sure next time you put a wine in a refrierator it's white janik I prifer savingion blanc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoush Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 (edited) Anahid make sure next time you put a wine in a refrierator it's white janik I prifer savingion blanc OK yeghav Ed Jan!!! Edited December 7, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloren Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 I automatically went to the refrigerator and poured myself a large glass of nice red wine and drank it. Don't ever do that in France! You might get judged and say hello to the "guillotine" Don't ever think of putting ice in your wine too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aSoldier Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 (edited) Someone who does not believe in God, does also not believe in heaven or hell.. So he cannot be convinced he is going to heaven because he is good.. He is doing good because he wants it. Because it's more healthy, or because of society rules.. So no it still doesn't make sense. Nevertheless, he will go to heaven because he believes he has lived a life of righteousness. You are contradicting yourself.... We will be judge on the knowledge of God.. Not believing in Him makes us have no knowledge on Him.. so even if we do Good, we will still go to Hell aren't we? Because of no knowledge! You should explain clearly what it means "to have knowledge on God". Everyone has knowledge of God. "Not believing" in Him is rejecting God. If you don't believe in something you are rejecting it, no? For example...If I don't believe the creation of man originated from a big bang, I am rejecting that idea. Edited December 7, 2005 by sSebB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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