Erdogan: 'it Is Up To The Armenians To Apologise'

[Dave]

PM Calls for Armenians to Apologise to Turkey

 

Prime Minister Erdogan said that his party and the opposition will be united in challenging the Armenian claims.

 

April 11 - It is up to the Armenians to apologise to Turkey over allegations of genocide during the First World War, Turkish Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Monday.

 

Speaking in Norway while on an official visit Erdogan said that Turkey was prepared to openly discuss the claims made by Armenians that the Ottoman Empire had committed genocide against its Armenian citizens

 

“We are opening up all of the state archives. Let everyone come and study it, we are ready to settle accounts with our history,” he said.

 

Erdogan said that they would send a letter to the 11 countries that had chosen to use the Blue Book, a study of the allegations and that is used as a basis for the Armenians claims, seeking for an apology to Turkey. He said that all the 550 deputies in the Turkish parliament would sign this letter.

 

Not only Armenians ''have to apologize'', countries that recognized the Genocide have to apologize too??

[DominO123]

http://www.genocidewatch.org/8stages.htm

 

"Denial is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide. It is among the surest indicators of further genocidal massacres. The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims. They block investigations of the crimes, and continue to govern until driven from power by force, when they flee into exile. There they remain with impunity, like Pol Pot or Idi Amin, unless they are captured and a tribunal is established to try them.

 

The best response to denial is punishment by an international tribunal or national courts. There the evidence can be heard, and the perpetrators punished. Tribunals like the Yugoslav, Rwanda, or Sierra Leone Tribunals, an international tribunal to try the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, and ultimately the International Criminal Court must be created. They may not deter the worst genocidal killers. But with the political will to arrest and prosecute them, some mass murderers may be brought to justice."

 

 

 

The Armenian genocide should as well be called "exemplary genocide." Every stages are respected, and the last one more than any other instances of genocide.

[ED]

and this kind of statment is comming from a Turkish PM?

speaking of being politicaly correct, what an idiot

[DominO123]

and this kind of statment is comming from a Turkish PM?

speaking of being politicaly correct, what an idiot

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

It does really surprise you?

 

Come on Ed., they hire a racist like Halacoglu the clown, that would even claim that 56 thousand Armenians died, and that Armenians killed 518 thousand Turks. What do you expect a PM to say after that?

Edited April 12, 2005 by QueBeceR

[ED]

what suprised me was the language in which a PM was using, this makes me think if and worry what is the public perspective on AG,

 

 

hayeren xosk m@ ga ur gseh

 

"hoviv@ vochxaren aveli vochxar eh"

so this is a perfect example

[DominO123]

what suprised me was the language in which a PM was using, this makes me think if and worry what is the public perspective on AG,

hayeren xosk m@ ga ur gseh

 

"hoviv@ vochxaren aveli vochxar eh"

so this is a perfect example

style_images/master/snapback.png

 

I know the expression, fit very well here.

 

I don't think though, this sort of statment is anything new(what the PM said). For them, this is simply a ball game, they think it is a "fight" between two sides to get history "written."

[gamavor]

It takes a huge amount of stupidity, ignorance and arogance to make such a statement in the birth place of Fritiof Nansen.

[ED]

ehhh Gems, aghvor xosk m@ uneyir, amena lav turk@ satkatsn eh

[shaunt]

I'M SORRY! FORGIVE ME FOR MY TRANSGRESSIONS, ERDOGAN BEY! Edited April 13, 2005 by shaunt

[phantom22]

There is no hope for Turkey.

 

How could Erdogan say such a thing? Apology? I really think that their EU membership is in big trouble. France will never let them in. Ditto Germany.

They will be blackballed by a few countries.

 

Their strategic influence is waning also. Hopefully a pro-US Kurdistan will be established in northern Iraq.

 

Armenia has to try harder to forge ties with the US. It seems that Rumsfeld is in Baku negotiating for a US base in Azerbaijan.

[gamavor]

There is nothing to negotiate with Turkey!

 

We can negotiate with Americans the amount of the annual institutional "help" granted to the Armenian government in order to make possible the complementary policy of the Armenian government towards USA and the use of Armenian air space for "their" war against terrorism.

 

We can negotiate with Russia the future of the Russian military bases in Armenia (their location, terms, etc.) that would best suit Armenian and Russian interests.

 

We can negotiate with Canada, France, Germany and Russia the location of the new Nuclear Power Station.

 

We can negotiate with Iran, Georgia, Ukraine, and Russia the future route of the Iranian natural gas pipeline and the supplies of Iranian gas to Europe.

 

We can negotiate with Georgia a multitude of issues of mutual interest and to deepen our good neighborly relations.

 

We can negotiate with Azveristan the future of Nagorno-Karabagh (Artzagh).

 

But there is nothing to negotiate with Turkey. It is in Armenia's best interest to keep the Armenian - Turkish border sealed.

 

PS: "Europe" was born in Asia! I will write about it in the History forum one of these days.

[phantom22]

I agree with you Gams,

 

(Hey Siam, I know you don't like me to "godreh" names, but this is a common traditional Armenian practice, as my grandmothers would do this with their children's names.)

 

If one was living under the Hoover Dam, would one open the floodgates? I think not. If the border with Turkey is opened, Armenia will be deluged.

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/buildingbig/wonder...ure/hoover.html

Edited April 15, 2005 by phantom22

[hytga]

http://www.azg.am/?lang=EN&num=2005111803

 

U.K. FOREIGN OFFICE REJECTS TURKISH PARLIAMENT'S BID TO UNDERMINE HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION OF ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

 

The U.K. Ambassador to Ankara Dismisses Turkish Appeal to Reconsider the "Blue Book" on the Armenian Genocide

 

The British Ministry of Foreign Affairs, through its Ambassador to Turkey Sir Peter Westmacott, refused to consider the request made by the Turkish Parliament last April to reconsider the "Blue Book" a 1916 parliamentary report, formally titled, "Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915-16," that documents the systematic, deliberate and politically motivated nature of the Armenian Genocide.

 

In a letter dated from July 8th, Sir Westmacott officially explained that the Blue Book was drafted by the Parliament, not the government. He emphasized however, that – contrarily to the insinuations of the Turkish parliamentarians – "none of the individual reports [presented in the document] has been refuted" and that the moral and intellectual probity of the authors, Lord Bryce and the prominent historian Arnold J. Toynbee – may not be questioned.

 

This reply, revealed by the Gomidas Institute, is coming to light at the same time as the judicial finding, in a Brussels court, that Emir Kir is a certifiable denier of the Armenian Genocide. Taken together, these two actions represent a setback to the Turkish campaign in Europe to spread its doctrine of denial. They also stand in stark contrast to the misguided and historically inaccurate declaration made in 2004 by Mrs. Abott-Watt, the British Ambassador in Armenia, in which she questioned the Armenian Genocide.

 

The European Armenian Federation considers this letter by a senior representative of the United Kingdom a confirmation that its government acknowledges the Armenian Armenia Genocide as an incontestable and thoroughly documented historical fact.

 

Additional information can be obtained by visiting: http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg129069.html or by sending an email to the Gomidas Institute: info@gomidas.org.uk

 

EUROPEAN ARMENIAN FEDERATION for Justice & Democracy

[Vanetsi]

I speak for all forward-minded Armenians when I say this:

 

Erdogan---

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SIKTIR!

Edited November 18, 2005 by Vanetsi

[Z'areh]

It is not surprising what Erdogan is saying and doing. Akhtamar renovations are a sham, the Ottoman archives are cleansed, his "openness" is a farce, and he has shown his contempt towards historic responsibilities. This is to be expected from a leader of modern-day Turkish republic. But he is doing this with the full backing of world, in the absence of any "incentive" to do anything else is wishful thinking. He is basically calling the EU's "Armenian stance" a bluff, looking at how the Europeans approach the Genocide issue any leader in his position would see the bluff.

[DominO123]

It is not surprising what Erdogan is saying and doing. Akhtamar renovations are a sham, the Ottoman archives are cleansed, his "openness" is a farce, and he has shown his contempt towards historic responsibilities. This is to be expected from a leader of modern-day Turkish republic. But he is doing this with the full backing of world, in the absence of any "incentive" to do anything else is wishful thinking. He is basically calling the EU's "Armenian stance" a bluff, looking at how the Europeans approach the Genocide issue any leader in his position would see the bluff.

 

Agree 100%.

 

Pierre Caraman wrote in 1989, in “L'ouverture des archives d'Istanbul” published in the Nouvel Observateur, January-Febuary. P. 145 wrote something that applies so well here.

 

The year 1931 proved to be a landmark in the history of Ottoman Archives. Defying the most elementary rules, the government of Mustafa Kemal decided to sell the contents of a considerable part of the Archives to Bulgaria - at the price of its value as paper. The idea was to erase from human memory four centuries of Ottoman history. More discerning than the Turks, the Vatican bought these documents from Bulgaria at a price which for that time was rather high. As soon as the news of the sale broke out in Istanbul, the intellectuals cried 'scandal'; a sudden interest began to spring up and develop the remaining Archive depositaries. As a result, between 1932 and 1937, 184,256 items, whether registers or documents, were classified under 17 categories, with the collaboration of the Turcolog Lajos Fekete. In 1937, the ‘Hazinei Evrak’ disappeared and was supplanted by the new ‘Basvekalet Arsivi’ (The Archives of the Directorate of the Prime Ministry) … The Turkish authorities will allow the most ‘green’ foreign historians to consult data which will consist of selected, deleted and sanitized documents lest the present government is compromised relative to the problems of the Armenian genocide. Linguist-archivists, who have been working in theses archives for more than a decade, have taken care of this new project as far as the need for purging is concerned … It is most likely that nothing new will emerge from this new arrangement of accessibility. One has to be truly naïve or inept to believe in the obverse. The history of the tragic period has already been written and the archives of all other countries already contain and preserve the unalterable evidence of the first genocide of the twentieth century … As former Ambassador Zeki Kuneralp declared: ‘The liabilities of not publishing the historical documents outweigh the advantages.’ It is for this deplorable (Turkish) obsession (for concealment) that we rely upon foreign documents to learn about our history.

[Takoush]

http://www.azg.am/?lang=EN&num=2005111803

This is good news. I have also read Lord Bryce's complete report on the Genocide and I am exultant that Ambassador Westmacott is against the Turkish allegations and further request for denials of the AG.

I understand Arnold Toynbee was the editor of Bryce's report.

 

Let today's Turkish gov't. know that they cannot distort valid historical facts.

Edited November 19, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[hytga]

http://www.azg.am/?lang=EN&num=2005111705

PM ERDOGAN TO CHALLENGE ARMENIA

 

At the annual session of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly in Dane capital of Copenhagen on November 15 Turkish prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan made a speech before 300 parliamentarians, NTV and Turkish press informed on November 16.

 

Participants asked Erdogan questions after his speech. A parliamentary inquired about relations with Armenia and about the Armenian Genocide. Here is what Erdogan answered: "We look to equivalent response to our positive approach. As soon as in the office, we opened airspace to Armenia. Yerevan-Istanbul flights launched during our rule. The second positive step concerns the church on Akhtamar Island in Van Lake. The government took up reconstruction of this run-down church that belongs to our Armenian citizens. Reconstruction was carried out by architects specially chosen by the Armenian Patriarch of Turkey.

 

"After the repair the church will be open both to our Armenian citizens and Armenians from abroad. The third step we took is of international character. We have opened our archives, now let Armenia and third states do the same. Let us engage specialists, political scientists, lawyers and historians in this work. Let them present the results for us to take corresponding steps.

 

"We are sure there never was a genocide in our history. It's a gross mistake to call "genocide" deportation of rebellious community organized right up to paying for their travel expense. Also wrong is to chide Turkey for delusions unrelated to the issue simply giving in to the lobbyist organizations. We have no doubt that this mistake will be corrected. Frankly speaking, it's time for challenges. Let them come to discuss, study and arrive at a conclusion together."

 

No matter how unacceptable PM Erdogan's approach is, we should agree that his challenge has a hue of an offer. Regardless motivations, it's a step forward for Turkey because all previous prime ministers not only were reluctant to hear anything about the Genocide but also accused Armenians of perpetuating genocide against Turks.

this is rediculus.

 

"We are sure there never was a genocide in our history. It's a gross mistake to call "genocide" deportation of rebellious community organized right up to paying for their travel expense.

travel expense? makes you want to go for this unbelievable deal.

will someone shoot this guy? or maybe we should pay for his travel expenses to der el zor. With the condition that he walks there on foot, without food and water. I wonder how much that would cost us. $5?

 

hell. if we rob him on his way, we might end up with a profit. We should also call those gay armenians to do their thing too.

Edited November 19, 2005 by hytga

[Z'areh]

Let today's Turkish gov't. know that they cannot distort valid historical facts.

 

 

The Turkish government knows that they can in fact distort history. And they do it with the blessing of all involved.

 

Latest example of the European bluff in regards to the Armeian Genocide.

 

From the TDN, about the recognition of the Armenian Genocide by the city of Edinbourg;

 

["The council recognizes that atrocities and tragedies occurred on all sides in the conflicts which began in 1915, but supports the view that the Ottoman actions against the Armenian community did constitute genocide,” it said.

 

Nevertheless, it noted that the council “welcomes and supports Turkish membership of the European Union and supports dialogue and reconciliation between the Turkish and Armenian peoples.”

 

“The council does not support the view that genocide recognition should be made a condition for membership of the EU,” it said.]

 

 

Note: the "atrocities...on all sides" , “welcomes and supports Turkish membership of the European Union"

 

They "welcome" now the membership, and not "will welcome upon recognition of the Genocide".

 

 

This follows an article in the Italian newspaper, Corriere della Sera, where a respected historian finds "grounds" for Ottoman reaction that led them to commit this genocide, we were, he says, like the "Damocles sword" hanging over the Turks, whereas the Jews presented no threat to the Germans. As if to say in a war if one party finds another party a potential threat a genocidal action, as deplorable as it is, can be put in another perspective.

 

So there you have it, if EU accession is not determinant of Turkey to recognize the Armenian genocide, and if voices of quasi-justifications are heard from here and there, then no Turkish leader will be willing to voluntarily repent.

Edited November 19, 2005 by Z'areh

[Takoush]

Zareh:

 

I read most things on this Forum. I also read Domino' input. So yes I know everything; but I am just saying that such as 'ayradz serdi mekhitarank'. I have known all along that such as most of Europe play games with Turkey. Most of Europe doesn't want Turkey in the EU and not because of us, of our agenda or for the Armenian Genocide. I have known it all along that they play 'dirty politics' if you'll have it.

 

However, when I heard about this post, I felt a bit happy about the Blue Book and Ambassador's Westmacott's actions or non actions. What you said I've already read them and I know them as much.

Edited November 19, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Takoush]

this is rediculus.

travel expense? makes you want to go for this unbelievable deal.

will someone shoot this guy? or maybe we should pay for his travel expenses to der el zor. With the condition that he walks there on foot, without food and water. I wonder how much that would cost us. $5?

 

hell. if we rob him on his way, we might end up with a profit. We should also call those gay armenians to do their thing too.

 

Good for you hytga. Let us send him to Der El Zor without food or water, under the hot sun taunting him some small piece of bread, yet not giving it to him, then what you said sending those gays after him. Then we'll call it travel expenses to that SOB's ridiculousness.

[DominO123]

Zareh:

 

I read most things on this Forum. I also read Domino' input. So yes I know everything; but I am just saying that such as 'ayradz serdi mekhitarank'. I have known all along that such as most of Europe play games with Turkey. Most of Europe doesn't want Turkey in the EU and not because of us, of our agenda or for the Armenian Genocide. I have known it all along that they play 'dirty politics' if you'll have it.

 

However, when I heard about this post, I felt a bit happy about the Blue Book and Ambassador's Westmacott's actions or non actions. What you said I've already read them and I know them as much.

 

When has Europe done anything really positive favoring the Armenians? Not so long ago, the British government claimed that the Armenian massacres does not constitute genocide. That most people living in Europe doesn't want Turkey is irrelevant, it is politically correct to include Turkey and this is all that matters for them.

 

The main point Zareh is making is that the Turkish government has nothing to gain by recognizing the genocide, it isen't a condition for anything. There are those that relativise the genocide because they are pushing the inclusion of Turkey, they make of it as something between Turkey and Armenia. Even newspapers, if you read newspapers they usually b-ull-s-hit the stupid and erronous remark, "According to Armenia ..., and according to Turkey..." they separate totally themselves and wash their durty hands. They claim favoring good relations between Turkey and Armenia and buy the Turkish government poops everytime they come and in any flavours. How many times have you seen used the regurgitated alleged claim of the Turkish government request to the republic of Armenia?

 

They've left Armenia down, and backstabbed Armenians everytimes Armenians were trusting them, what reasons do we have to trust them again?

 

They may vote and recognize the genocide in their parlements, but as long as they play Turkeys game, nothing really will move.

[DominO123]

Good for you hytga. Let us send him to Der El Zor without food or water, under the hot sun taunting him some small piece of bread, yet not giving it to him, then what you said sending those gays after him. Then we'll call it travel expenses to that SOB's ridiculousness.

 

Like if it will change anything, he'll start denying that Armenians were sent there in the first place. I suggest you to read Halacoglus booklet and what he has to say about the city of Zor, and you'll see what is their arguments about that.

 

The only way is for them to feel and know that nobody is buying their arguments, I am confident that they will never believe a genocide happened, for the simple reason that the Turkish society is too prood and the collectivity is in a chronic mass delusion. They should feel that no matter what bone they throw to the Europeans or the world, no one will buy it. They should be convinced that the rest of the world has another version of the history, and that this is not a subject of bargin. And now, we can't even have this, because the rest of the world do leak the bone thrown by Turkey. They'll leave Armenians dealing with this, they've done it during the genocide, why should they move a finger now?

 

The only thing left, is to educate ourselves, document the cases and hammer their head with history, debunk the BS and force parlements to pass resolutions and anger Turkey and loving doing that. We should not expect others to do the job for us.

Edited November 19, 2005 by QueBeceR

[Zartonk]

It amazes me how he dares to say such a thing in the very Europe he is trying to enter.

 

 

UNEXEPTABLE.

[Takoush]

When has Europe done anything really positive favoring the Armenians? Not so long ago, the British government claimed that the Armenian massacres does not constitute genocide. That most people living in Europe doesn't want Turkey is irrelevant, it is politically correct to include Turkey and this is all that matters for them.

 

The main point Zareh is making is that the Turkish government has nothing to gain by recognizing the genocide, it isen't a condition for anything. There are those that relativise the genocide because they are pushing the inclusion of Turkey, they make of it as something between Turkey and Armenia. Even newspapers, if you read newspapers they usually b-ull-s-hit the stupid and erronous remark, "According to Armenia ..., and according to Turkey..." they separate totally themselves and wash their durty hands. They claim favoring good relations between Turkey and Armenia and buy the Turkish government poops everytime they come and in any flavours. How many times have you seen used the regurgitated alleged claim of the Turkish government request to the republic of Armenia?

 

They've left Armenia down, and backstabbed Armenians everytimes Armenians were trusting them, what reasons do we have to trust them again?

 

They may vote and recognize the genocide in their parlements, but as long as they play Turkeys game, nothing really will move.

 

 

Domino:

 

Why are you talking in an agitated manner with me on this matter?

 

If you ever read all my posts, my topics and my views about all of these matters you will surely see and have come to the conclusion that I am certainly with your thoughts mostly.

 

Did I ever mention in the above thread that I believe in them or I am for Britain's views or simply that I have hope of their acceptance about the AG? Nooooooooooooooo. I didn't. I only said that this ambassador was doing something that coincides with our rights only for this instance, by putting away with the Turks' request letter as they beleive in their own Blue book and their Byron's written documents, and because I have read Byron's report which was quite sympathetic and factual about the Armenian Genocide. I know well that Britain will probably do nothing for our behalf and for AG or our rights. I know only too well how much tricks and aloofness the whole of Europe has demonstrated towards their Christian brothers, that is us Armenians. Do you think only you know and I don't know that during the massacres the whole of Europe showed nil interest, sympathy, empathy or help towards the Armenians? Or are you trying to pat yourself on the back that only you know and I don't? I also said and gave my views many times before about these matters and my views are not much different than yours so stop trying.

 

Do you think for a moment that I don't know that the Turkish government do know only too well that they have nothing to gain by accepting that it's a Genocide? I hope you know that by them accepting the Genocide they well know the consequences; that they will either pay us plenty of money or give us our lands back. Also because they have false pride not to accept as a nation that they wronged and they wronged plenty by being killers towards the innocent civilian Armenians. In either way they are not to gain. So if corrupted Europe and the U.S. is pretty much blowing their duduks and being completely uncaring towards Armenians, why should they give in? And yes they are denying because they don't want to accept responsibility and rather than the world being on the side of the innocent, they are pretty much being on the side of the barbaric killers. Europe and the U.S. truly is corrupted for doing this even though they play soooooo saintly and against supposedly unjustice behaviours and countries. All Balony and B.S.

 

So there. I have now for the umpteenth time gave my views on the matter.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi