Erdogan: 'it Is Up To The Armenians To Apologise'

[DominO123]

hytga, the restrive term is about what Lemkin came up with, before the UN genocide convention(which is the general).

 

For the restrictive term to apply, a group must be targeted and successfully its community destroyed. The Armenians of Anatolia just disapeared after the First World War. The UN first version dated December 11, 1946, was more or less the restrictive version of Lemkin. Also more or less as the one proposed by Peter Drost later.

 

It is true that the Hamidian massacre may be called genocide, if we consider that crimes such as those in Bosnia are called such, but many in comparative genocide studies do not call what happened in Bosnia as genocide.

 

Take a look at the table on the middle of this page. http://www.psych.upenn.edu/seligman/chirot.htm

 

I disagree with the fact that American Indians cases was not considered as such, but more or less, you'll see some way of classifications.

 

Also, classifying every massacres perpetrated against Armenians as genocide is not a good thing to do, since THE Genocide is unique in the Armenian history and such comparaisons downgrad it.

 

I think Toynbee in his autobiography makes a good distinction between the two. when he writes: The massacre of Armenian subjects in the Ottoman Empire in 1896… was amateur and ineffective compared with the largely successful attempt to exterminate [them] during the First War in 1915… [This] genocide was carried out under the cloak of legality by cold-blooded governmental action. These were not mass-murders committed spontaneously by mobs of private people…

[DominO123]

Thanks for the clarification, I always qualified modern Ottoman, as post Tanzimat, thosefor, 1840s-1860s or something, before Abdul Hamid reverted the constitution.

 

Also, I don't know if I really agree with you, when you say the pre 19 century massacres had nothing to do with pre-Modern Ottoman, since they were mostly commited under reign of an Islamic regime, subjugating the Armenians. I just believe that the main differences is that Armenian self-realization and the French revolution which influenced mostly the Christians was what the Ottoman was trying to resist. In my sense, if modernization there was, it was heterogenious and with a lot of resistance. And don't forget that when Abdul Hamid took power he left off the constitution, and was highly anti-modernist., yet he was the one that commited the worst massacres before the genocide.

 

Sorry! I forgot to specify how I define the divide between pre-modern and modern is in the Ottoman Empire. I simply assumed that everyone was familiar with this subject and the Ottomans in general. My fault. Although historians are still debating on the subject, it is generally accepted that the nineteenth century is the modern era for the Ottoman history. So, all of those massacres that took place in the nineteenth century had nothing to do with the pre-modern Ottoman period and since I do not deny the existence of massacres aimed at Armenians in this period, those counter-arguments against what I wrote means nothing as far as I am concerned. In fact, they support my point. By the way, I am afraid that none of those sources mentioned are relevant to the subject.

 

If I go back to the subject of when the modern era starts, it is way before 1860’s Quebecer. 1800’s is definitely the modern period and I would look for its beginning in the mid 1700’s. By the way, I am talking about the Ottoman world (with Muslims and Christians), not necessarily about the Ottoman Muslims only. The process of modernization started much earlier for the Ottoman Christians. My whole point is that the Armenian-Turkish/Muslim conflict is a modern phenomenon. It doesn’t exist in the pre-modern era. The life was perhaps not great for Armenians, but in the pre-modern period there were other groups who had it worse than Armenians. The six hundred years of brutality in the form of massacres, rapes and killings is simply a modern myth invented for nation building purposes like other nationalistic myths found in every modern nation-state. We may of course have another separation as in the form of pre-Young Turk era versus the Young Turk era or the era of Turkish nationalism, but that is a different topic.

 

I got to go now.

[DominO123]

ANAHIT-TAGUHI. Don't take me wrong but i you're overreacting for nothing. I think Domino's comments to cool it down were directed more towards me than you. There's no need to create drama.

es fadiits chem neganum vorovhetev indz chi tvum te fadin inch vor vat mtqove et asets. Am i right Domino?

 

I'd consider you're pretty much cool, so no, it wasn't directed at you.

 

As for the other part, more or less, regadless.

[zurderer]

i don't recall any special words. Maybe you can refresh my memory. we just call turks turks. If you're talking about insults, then those can happen on individual bases. For example i can call a turk a retard, you can call an armenian an idiot. But those are on the personal level. Which is quite different when an ethnik group (turks, kurds) thinks of armenians as gavur.

 

 

Infact you are right, You dont use any other word for Turk, you use turk word as a insult. (At least what I saw mainly at this cite)

 

By the way, sorry for misinformed you, gavur was a word used for all non-muslim not only armenians. For armenians, we dont have not a special word too. But there is some people who use "Armenian" word such as some armenian use "turk" word.(as an insult)

 

 

again those acts of turks taking armenians to their homes, despite the fear of punishment were more on the personal level during the genocide than on the whole. It was not that every single turk hated armenians and vice versa. There were some instances where armenians and turks were friends.

 

Sure protecting them is a personal issue, but can you tell me killing them is also a personel issue? That "gavur" word is not so commonly used.

 

choose your words carefully. Even if there were some groups of armenian bandits, the population in the whole did not rebel

 

I am talking about Turkish rebellions. They rebelled and rebelled before armenians much, and they are suppresed, not much nicely.

 

as i said. you don't massacre 250-300000 thousand civilians and blame them for making assasination attempt at ottoman patsha (which could not be true).

 

I didnt say this is not a massacre, but this has no relation with the ethnic. As I try to show you before, when Turks rebelled, they met with massacre too.

 

Yea sure let me massacre 50mln(2 of every 3) turks and let's just forget about it.

 

I dont want to play with number games, but this is complately stupid, If we killed 2 of every 3 armenian, you wont have so much armenians now.

 

Acording to armenians, we killed 1.5 million, and just 750.000 armenian protected their life.

 

Can you tell me, at 80 year, how this 750.000 becamed 8 million? I dont think armenians had much population growth.

 

Both armenian who lives in ROA and diaspora had not so much population increase. This is out of reality.

 

 

By the way, I didnt say forget it. even didnt imply it.

 

btw. chould you at least name 500.000 or half of the genocides in the world? you make it sound like it's an everyday phenomenon and like it's so common that it could be conused with frying a chicken.

 

Call all war. every war reasoned civilian killings.

 

Well lets name you some for our nearly times.

 

Serbs killed and exiled bosnians and croats civilian.

Croats killed and exiled serbs and bosnian civilians.

USA was attacked civilians a lot of time at Iraq. They tortured and killed civilians.

Russia and chechenia.

 

want to remember what Brits, russians, Americans(A-bomb), greeks did at world war 2? or do you think it is only germans who attacked civilians.

 

I have not much knowledge about azeri-armenians issue, but I know both side killed and exiled civilians.(not mistakenly)

 

Well it is not every day, but every war.

 

Is that how the majority of turks think?

 

No they dont, why do you think I am voice of majority, do you?

 

You're admitting that genocide happened. I wonder what the ones who don't admit it think.

 

Infact they are more ethic than me. They dont know or believe it (or dont want to believe)

 

I accept guilt of my ancestors, and I dont feel guilty because of this. That guys think, If their ancestors did bad words, this will harm them. Every nation did bad things. why should we be different.

 

of course not. but that doesn't take the blame off turkey's shoulders.

 

No, doesnot take. It doesnot take blame from others too. do you think brits dutch or russian feel guilty or they think, they should help people that they genocided.

 

Imagine the scenario where 100 people are fanaticly killing people around the city. Are you saying that just because there were so many of them that none of them should be punished?

 

No I didnt say this, as I said I dont interest much. Infact It was you who say only one of this 100 should be punished and this one should be killer of your uncle. Or do you care much for other genocides too? I didnt heard any time, armenians interested with genocide made by people except Turks.

 

I can't find the right word to describe how ignorant it is.

 

This punishing thing is complately comic and Ironically you wait support turks for punishing their own country. If you are turk, will you support this?

 

The issue is not about it being special. It's about Turkey fessing up to her crimes and making reparations.

 

well so you are talking about justice, did any armenian go to European court? you know Turkey accept supremacy of this court, and If armenians believe European justice(and I think they believe) They can go, European human right court.

 

By the way, some reparations should be done to persons not organizations and absolutely not ROA.

 

The difference is the Germans confessed, met their punishments, and made reparations. They did not deny, deny, deny for decades. Turkey needs the to get the nerve to face up to her history.

 

Wake up, difference is germans losted war, there were guns who aimed their heads, and they had no alternatives. They didnt accept it, others accepted it for them.(isnt this also what are you doing at all world, but you still couldnt do this)

 

And I couldnt see any country who accept genocide thing.

 

That facing thing with history is only a propoganda. boho, I am afrading from my past.

 

 

The issues that we should be focusing upon should be more about today. When is the Turkish government going to return confiscated bank accounts and properties? When are religious institutions going to get back their properties and be allowed to fix their properties? When will the Turkish government stop re-writing history concerning the contributions of Armenians to Ottoman history?

 

Well at least some sense, I wish my goverment do this, but dont hope much.

Edited November 27, 2005 by zurderer

[phantom22]

The issues that we should be focusing upon should be more about today. When is the Turkish government going to return confiscated bank accounts and properties? When are religious institutions going to get back their properties and be allowed to fix their properties? When will the Turkish government stop re-writing history concerning the contributions of Armenians to Ottoman history?

 

Well at least some sense, I wish my goverment do this, but dont hope much.

 

Zurderer,

 

The Turkish government doesn't quite understand that putting this episode behind them is to their advantage. On the one hand they are trying to mesh with the West. On the other hand they do not give Christians equal footing in their nation. Then they get upset and call Europe a Christian club. Turkey acts like a Moslem club and then lobs accusations about "Christian club." Time for Turkey to make amends and move on to a better tomorrow for all concerned. She will NEVER make Armenia disappear, so better to clear the air honestly and focus upon better regional economy.

 

As you state, the differences between us are hard to find. It may get down to only religion and language. The approach of the Turkish government is very poor foreign policy.

Edited November 27, 2005 by phantom22

[DominO123]

zurderer, the World Armenian population was of about 4.2 million before 1915, if we substract the losses withing the Ottoman Armenian, and the Caucasus, we won't find 750 thousand, but easily 2.5 million.

 

In fact, the increases of Turks from the 20s to present is well higher than the Armenian population increases, which is understanble given the assimilation ratio etc.

 

You make this as if all Armenians were living in the Ottoman Empire. I have statistics of world Armenian population from the 20s to present, and you'll see a constant increase to 8 million for now, and that if we project this population backward to post genocide, we'll find about the same figures. I am writting an article about this.

[hytga]

gavur was a word used for all non-muslim not only armenians

i know that. but the "main" gavurs in ottoman empire were armenianis.

That "gavur" word is not so commonly used.

maybe not today.

 

Can you tell me, at 80 year, how this 750.000 becamed 8 million? I dont think armenians had much population growth.

QuebecR already answered your question.

 

USA was attacked civilians a lot of time at Iraq. They tortured and killed civilians.

let's not go off topic. But that nonesense. What happend in abu grahib does not mean that it's happening all over iraq.

 

but that doesn't take the blame off turkey's shoulders.

No, doesnot take.

exactly what i'm trying to say.

 

do you think brits dutch or russian feel guilty or they think, they should help people that they genocided.

we're not brits, neither are you. Let the brits decide their own afairs. For now we can only afford to work with ours.

 

Or do you care much for other genocides too? I didnt heard any time, armenians interested with genocide made by people except Turks.

well that's your problem that you didn't hear.

 

This punishing thing is complately comic and Ironically you wait support turks for punishing their own country. If you are turk, will you support this?

which is exactly why armenians lobby in foreign parliaments. because turks, or should i say the turkish government, don't have neither the decency nor the balls to do it themselves.

 

Infact It was you who say only one of this 100 should be punished and this one should be killer of your uncle.

i never said that only one of the 100 should be punished. don't put words into my mouth. Btw if there are 100 victims, then each family of the victim will push charges against the murderer of their family member, not agains the other 99. as for the otehr 99 then they should be punished too. but we're not the judge that's going to punish the other 99, we're the ones that want our attacker to be punished. although we'd like if every murderer is punished and the city were clean of fanatics.

 

well so you are talking about justice, did any armenian go to European court? you know Turkey accept supremacy of this court, and If armenians believe European justice(and I think they believe) They can go, European human right court.

maybe they don't (when it comes to this matter) because there are a lot more powerful political forces envolved. and everyone, including the turks and europeans, are trying to keep armenians on the leash.

 

I'm still trying to figure out whether you actually believe genocide happened or not. if yes then this last quote is completely unnecessary.

 

and could you answer my question, as to what's your purpose is in this forum?

Edited November 27, 2005 by hytga

[hytga]

hytga, the restrive term is about what Lemkin came up with, before the UN genocide convention(which is the general).

yea sure. if you look at it that way, then Lemkin used the word genocide for the WWI massacres of armenians not for the 1896's ones. Anyhow, what i must've misunderstood about what you meant by "restrictive". I was basing my words on the UN one.

[Takoush]

I'd consider you're pretty much cool, so no, it wasn't directed at you.

 

As for the other part, more or less, regadless.

Do you see now hytga? How his choice of words and opinions are? He thinks sooo much of his own opinions only and he is know it all, and I am not by any means creating a drama; because I mean it when I said that I don't like his attitude.

Edited November 28, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[DominO123]

Do you see now hytga? How his choice of words and opinions are? He thinks sooo much of his own opinions only and he is know it all, and I am not by any means creating a drama; because I mean it when I said that I don't like his attitude towards me as it is anything but to be desired.

 

Look girl, from the beggining you've shown no any inclination to sit and listen. Every points made will then be turned by you as something directed against you. Go pay attention to what has been writen, only you have made attacks directed at me, while I refrained to answer you in kind, you've shown to be allergic to critical worthwile discussion.

 

While I disagree with Yalpa in some points, I've known him for years, and never have disgarded him in a discussion the way I am going to do with you.

 

My attitude toward you is all but positive right now, I have no problem admiting it. I just have enough of nationalist racist oriented filled trash, I have enough of those brought by the Turks I accounter, to waste my time with the kind Armenians like you generate.

[Takoush]

Look girl, from the beggining you've shown no any inclination to sit and listen. Every points made will then be turned by you as something directed against you. Go pay attention to what has been writen, only you have made attacks directed at me, while I refrained to answer you in kind, you've shown to be allergic to critical worthwile discussion.

 

While I disagree with Yalpa in some points, I've known him for years, and never have disgarded him in a discussion the way I am going to do with you.

 

My attitude toward you is all but positive right now, I have no problem admiting it. I just have enough of nationalist racist oriented filled trash, I have enough of those brought by the Turks I accounter, to waste my time with the kind Armenians like you generate.

Well boy, from the begginning you have had no good attitude towards me and I am not going to disregard it. About attacks; I was right and am still right as you have made the attacks at me. And pleeaaaassseee do me the favor and disgard me from your discussions. Huh!

 

The kind Armenian like I generate?

 

You are a Turk lover then. Millenia of garbage.

Edited November 28, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[phantom22]

Well boy, from the begginning you have had no good attitude towards me and I am not going to disregard it. About attacks; I was right and am still right as you have made the attacks at me. And pleeaaaassseee do me the favor and disgard me from your discussions. Huh!

 

The kind Armenian like I generate?

 

You are a Turk lover then. Millenia of garbage.

 

 

Oh, come on Anahid! Please stop with this "Turk lover" talk. Quebecer is one of the Armenians most committed to our cause. Face it, we are in a difficult neighborhood. The Turks are there to be dealt with. Your attitude will not get us anywhere. Turkey has to go through a major transformation from a country controlled by a "deep state" to a free democracy. Spewing hate is just counterproductive.

[ED]

I have made my position at mods corner very clear and wont allow any personal atacks or none relaited discussions take place in this section, there is a chit chat section for these kind of things

 

please everyone respect this corner, get along, and keep it clean

[Takoush]

Oh, come on Anahid! Please stop with this "Turk lover" talk. Quebecer is one of the Armenians most committed to our cause. Face it, we are in a difficult neighborhood. The Turks are there to be dealt with. Your attitude will not get us anywhere. Turkey has to go through a major transformation from a country controlled by a "deep state" to a free democracy. Spewing hate is just counterproductive.

You got it all wrong. The hate originally didn't come from me but from Quebecer himself.

Edited November 28, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[vava]

Please folks - Edward is right. Let's set aside our personal differences, and concentrate on common goals. Armenians have enough troubles in this world; we don't need further in-fighting and name-calling.

[Eloren]

How can we fight for a commom cause against the "ennemy" if we do not know how to respect each other. Let's keep this talk civilised

 

@Anahid: Giving an opinion that does not follow yours is not an attack against you. We are here to discuss and share.

[phantom22]

How can we fight for a commom cause against the "ennemy" if we do not know how to respect each other. Let's keep this talk civilised

 

@Anahid: Giving an opinion that does not follow yours is not an attack against you. We are here to discuss and share.

 

You can expand that and ask the Catholicos to make a balanced statement that ALL Armenians are to be respected.

[Takoush]

How can we fight for a commom cause against the "ennemy" if we do not know how to respect each other. Let's keep this talk civilised

 

@Anahid: Giving an opinion that does not follow yours is not an attack against you. We are here to discuss and share.

Eloren, you and phantom please stop overtalking about this and in the interim sermonizing me. Your feelings and yourselves are not involved here and you know nothing what you're talking about. It's not just giving and taking opinions, it's how he talked down to me, how he only found every opportunity to criticize my posts and his way of addressing to me. Furthermore, by extending these unpleasant talks between Domino and myself you are only extending more and more our arguments and our disagreements between us. So please stop this already and go on with your lives and let me go on with mine. I do not wish to discuss this any further and please please no more comments about this. Also, we have already been told by the moderators not to argue or have lively discussions amongst ourselves in here; but to carry it to the Chit Chat Forum. I plan to do their wishes, I hope you do the same.

 

Thank you in advance.

Edited November 29, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[Arpa]

And the Genocide goes on.

SAD!!

 

VERY SAD!!

 

Only this time it is Autocide.

It is a sad commentary how a little twerp can once again Divide and Destroy us .

How after a hundred years, after regaining our independence Erdogan and Zuderer can still manipulate us at the end of a string, dancing to their davul beat, and, at the end turn our very darts and missiles against ourselves. Yet, it seems we don’t need neither Erdogan or Zuderer to divide us as we are the masters in the art of

 

Divide and Destroy.

 

What is new since “Dzayn mu Hnchets Erzurumi Hayots Lerneren” and “Bank Ottoman Gravvats Eh”, a cacophony that even the erdogans of the time found intolerable and silenced the “Pamp Vorotan” at the Ottoman Bank in Istanbul and the “(zenqi)dzayn” at Erzurum(Karin). Only this time the cacophony emanates from Yerevan to Beirut, to Paris, to Glendale, to Dubai, to Durban, to Quebec and Queensland.

You think they’re afraid of us?

How long does it take to put all those forces above to bring together?

When did we lose that grip on that puppeteer’s string?

When did we let them have us dance at the end of that string? Dance to the beat of that “davul”?

Ask Siamanto. He will tell you how one drummer had twenty maidens dance that “Dance Macabre”.

Has anything changed?

When one single drummer, be it Zurderer or Erdogan is still having us dance to death at their drum beat.

You think they can’t do it now?

Read the above autocidal, fratricidal and sororicidal cacophony.

We let ourselves be genocided then and on many occasions, we can do it again, we are doing it.

Keep on attacking one another, keep on tearing each other apart and observe Zirderer watch us rubbing his hands together in glee and grinning broadly like that legendary Van Cat.

 

An Arabic saying goes: “When you see the lion’s fangs it does not mean it is smiling”.

 

Her is that cat;

[url=http://www.thedrawingroom.biz/2002/cheshire.html]http://www.thedrawingr

 

As to the Van Cat funny part is that Turks did not even have a word for the animal, “kedi” until they met the Armenians and borrowed from the word “ԿԱՏՈՒ/katoo”, cat, chat, gatto, qutta(Arabic).

Its OK. Let’s keep playing the part of the mouse and see which trap is best for us.

Edited November 29, 2005 by Arpa

[Z'areh]

Only this time it is Autocide.

 

Read the above autocidal, fratricidal and sororicidal cacophony.

 

Divide and Destroy.

 

 

Wow Arpa, a little exaggeration, maybe?

 

Take it easy, you're giving much too much credit to Zurderer. He is trying to convince himself that he is right, the rest has nothing to do with him.

 

As for the cat thing there, I don't get it?? we seemed to have adopted the word "gadoo" from the Assyrians in the fourth century, why not Turks adopt it from Armenians?? what does that have anything to do with the "autocidal, fratricidal and sororicidal cacophony"

 

...my two Van cats are demanding....

Edited November 28, 2005 by Z'areh

[zurderer]

Only this time it is Autocide.

It is a sad commentary how a little twerp can once again Divide and Destroy us .

How after a hundred years, after regaining our independence Erdogan and Zuderer can still manipulate us at the end of a string, dancing to their davul beat, and, at the end turn our very darts and missiles against ourselves. Yet, it seems we don’t need neither Erdogan or Zuderer to divide us as we are the masters in the art of

 

now, this is not my guilt. I did not do anything, why should I guilty, because she have a nature like flame?

 

 

Complately absurd. we are at a forum, not any of us can effect politics of our nation. no need to mention my name with Erdogan, but anyway thanks, It is great honour.

 

 

Keep on attacking one another, keep on tearing each other apart and observe Zirderer watch us rubbing his hands together in glee and grinning broadly like that legendary Van Cat.

 

Yeah yeah, at least I started to a civil war. This was my aim. Stupidy. what do you think I gained from this fight?

[yalpa]

Thanks for the clarification, I always qualified modern Ottoman, as post Tanzimat, thosefor, 1840s-1860s or something, before Abdul Hamid reverted the constitution.

 

Also, I don't know if I really agree with you, when you say the pre 19 century massacres had nothing to do with pre-Modern Ottoman, since they were mostly commited under reign of an Islamic regime, subjugating the Armenians. I just believe that the main differences is that Armenian self-realization and the French revolution which influenced mostly the Christians was what the Ottoman was trying to resist. In my sense, if modernization there was, it was heterogenious and with a lot of resistance. And don't forget that when Abdul Hamid took power he left off the constitution, and was highly anti-modernist., yet he was the one that commited the worst massacres before the genocide.

 

What do you mean you don’t agree with me? How dare you? What the hell do you know about the Ottomans anyway? Just kidding!

 

But seriously, you need to say more than that the massacres were committed under the reign of an Islamic regime. Is having an Islamic regime enough to bring into the discussion the whole history of the Ottoman Empire? Can we claim that the political and social matrix (even if it is religiously based) that was responsible for the massacres and later the total or nearly total annihilation of Ottoman Armenians and their culture was established in the pre-modern era? We might as well go all the way back to the Arabs since it was their religion to begin with; they were the ones who came up with it. And finally why not bring in Judaism as well, since Islam is almost a replica or a very similar version of it? I don’t think that the pre-modern period of the Ottoman period is connected with the modern period in this respect just because they both used Sharia (Islamic Law) in managing the empire. In fact one of them must have not been an Islamic regime; otherwise what happened would not happen.

 

I will claim, first of all, that the Ottoman state was never a true Islamic regime. They never let Islam have full control of the state. Secondly, I will stick to my original claim that the massacres and the genocide at the end are entirely modern phenomena. And finally I will state that Abdul Hamid was probably the most modern emperor in the Ottoman history. We could even say that he laid the groundwork or established the infrastructure for the modern Turkey. He did put a stop to the constitutional rule or what was to become a constitutional rule during his reign, but this doesn’t necessarily mean that he was anti-modern.

 

This is where I will stop, since I have to get busy with something else now. I will perhaps continue tomorrow, but before I do that, could you briefly explain me what made you state what you stated in your reply to my previous post? Why do you think that being an Islamic regime is important or necessary in understanding the massacres or is linked to them?

[DominO123]

Yalpa, it could have been Judaistic, Christian etc., my point was more about a religious system than it being Islamic, of course being Islamic add it a little more, because Islam is a more political religion in my opinion.

 

About Abdul Hamid, here is where I strongly disagree with you. The guy was against pratically every policies put forth for the modernization of the Empire. What happened with the Tanzimat, hasn't it failed in part because of him?

 

The differenciation of the massacres for me, is that one was highly religiously motivated and not nationalistically, while this same explaination might be inadequate and incomplet to understand the genocide. I believe that in parallel and with the combination to the modernization appeared the Turkish nationalism which made of the Armenian destruction as a necessity to then culminate with Kemalism later. Had the Armenians been Muslim, most probably the Hamidian massacres would not have happened, but a genocide later with the arrival of Turkish nationalists in power would, maybe more throught Turkification than direct killing etc.(more like what happened to the Kurds during the Kemalist era and aftward) While the previous regime was brutal to the Armenians, it still 'prevented' total destruction, while Turkish nationalism had in my opinion, passed on that stage and became a necessity for those in power. The realization of the Turkish identity alienized the Armenians.

 

What do you mean you don’t agree with me? How dare you? What the hell do you know about the Ottomans anyway? Just kidding!

 

But seriously, you need to say more than that the massacres were committed under the reign of an Islamic regime. Is having an Islamic regime enough to bring into the discussion the whole history of the Ottoman Empire? Can we claim that the political and social matrix (even if it is religiously based) that was responsible for the massacres and later the total or nearly total annihilation of Ottoman Armenians and their culture was established in the pre-modern era? We might as well go all the way back to the Arabs since it was their religion to begin with; they were the ones who came up with it. And finally why not bring in Judaism as well, since Islam is almost a replica or a very similar version of it? I don’t think that the pre-modern period of the Ottoman period is connected with the modern period in this respect just because they both used Sharia (Islamic Law) in managing the empire. In fact one of them must have not been an Islamic regime; otherwise what happened would not happen.

 

I will claim, first of all, that the Ottoman state was never a true Islamic regime. They never let Islam have full control of the state. Secondly, I will stick to my original claim that the massacres and the genocide at the end are entirely modern phenomena. And finally I will state that Abdul Hamid was probably the most modern emperor in the Ottoman history. We could even say that he laid the groundwork or established the infrastructure for the modern Turkey. He did put a stop to the constitutional rule or what was to become a constitutional rule during his reign, but this doesn’t necessarily mean that he was anti-modern.

 

This is where I will stop, since I have to get busy with something else now. I will perhaps continue tomorrow, but before I do that, could you briefly explain me what made you state what you stated in your reply to my previous post? Why do you think that being an Islamic regime is important or necessary in understanding the massacres or is linked to them?

Edited November 28, 2005 by QueBeceR

[Takoush]

X0X0X0 Edited November 29, 2005 by Anahid Takouhi

[phantom22]

And the Genocide goes on.

SAD!!

 

VERY SAD!!

 

Only this time it is Autocide.

It is a sad commentary how a little twerp can once again Divide and Destroy us .

How after a hundred years, after regaining our independence Erdogan and Zuderer can still manipulate us at the end of a string, dancing to their davul beat, and, at the end turn our very darts and missiles against ourselves. Yet, it seems we don’t need neither Erdogan or Zuderer to divide us as we are the masters in the art of

 

Divide and Destroy.

 

What is new since “Dzayn mu Hnchets Erzurumi Hayots Lerneren” and “Bank Ottoman Gravvats Eh”, a cacophony that even the erdogans of the time found intolerable and silenced the “Pamp Vorotan” at the Ottoman Bank in Istanbul and the “(zenqi)dzayn” at Erzurum(Karin). Only this time the cacophony emanates from Yerevan to Beirut, to Paris, to Glendale, to Dubai, to Durban, to Quebec and Queensland.

You think they’re afraid of us?

How long does it take to put all those forces above to bring together?

When did we lose that grip on that puppeteer’s string?

When did we let them have us dance at the end of that string? Dance to the beat of that “davul”?

Ask Siamanto. He will tell you how one drummer had twenty maidens dance that “Dance Macabre”.

Has anything changed?

When one single drummer, be it Zurderer or Erdogan is still having us dance to death at their drum beat.

You think they can’t do it now?

Read the above autocidal, fratricidal and sororicidal cacophony.

We let ourselves be genocided then and on many occasions, we can do it again, we are doing it.

Keep on attacking one another, keep on tearing each other apart and observe Zirderer watch us rubbing his hands together in glee and grinning broadly like that legendary Van Cat.

 

An Arabic saying goes: “When you see the lion’s fangs it does not mean it is smiling”.

 

Her is that cat;

http://www.thedrawingroom.biz/2002/cheshire.html

 

As to the Van Cat funny part is that Turks did not even have a word for the animal, “kedi” until they met the Armenians and borrowed from the word “ԿԱՏՈՒ/katoo”, cat, chat, gatto, qutta(Arabic).

Its OK. Let’s keep playing the part of the mouse and see which trap is best for us.

 

Arpa,

 

You are foaming at the mouth again. This is only a forum of a small group of regular posters. I know of only one who has any official capacity, and he has not posted lately. He is the one who you despise. Raffi Hovanissian, son of a gentle scholar who I have had the pleasure of acquaintance, is trying to make the ROA a more honest society. Turkey is under the world magnifying glass. Get serious dude (or dudette as I surmise-you are too emotional to be a man), what transpires here doesn't amount to a "hill of beans."

Edited November 29, 2005 by phantom22