Kurdified - Turkified Armenians

[Arpa]

We are Christians. Right?

The "first" ones for that. At least that is what we like to think.

But do we really practice?

In Islam apostasy, wandering out of the fold is a death sentence, literally.

Here is what the founder of our faith and religion has to say about the subject.

Above we saw the parable of the Prodigal Son. I am sure many also read the parable leading to that story, namely the one about the Lost Sheep.

This time read verses/hamars 1 to 7.

Could it be that those "lost sheep" got lost running away from the "wolf", or for that matter having suckled at the "wolf's" teat? Remus and Romulus suckled at the wolf's teat too, yet they founded the mighty Roman Empire, today known as Italy. Of course that was another wolf, not the "grey" one we had to deal with. The "wolf" we had to deal with should have been bitten to death at the teat when we had the teeth.

 

Below the Armenian version, You can also see it in English at the site below.

Pray tell where in the Christian literature it is prescribed to condemn and forget the "Lost Sheep"?

If we are Christians as many of us would aver then let us behave so.

This does not suggest that we should forsake and abandon the remaining 99 chasing the lost 1.

 

 

 

15 Եւ բոլոր մաքսաւորներն ու մեղաւորները նրա մօտն էին, որպէսզի լսեն նրան։ 2Փարիսեցիներն ու օրէնսգէտները տրտնջում էին եւ ասում. «Ինչո՞ւ է սա ընդունում մեղաւորներին եւ ուտում նրանց հետ»։ 3Յիսուս նրանց այս առակն ասաց. 4«Ձեզնից ո՞վ է այն մարդը, որ, երբ հարիւր ոչխար ունենայ եւ կորցնի նրանցից մէկը, արօտավայրում չի թողնի իննսունիննին եւ չի գնայ կորածի յետեւից, մինչեւ որ այն գտնի։ 5Եւ երբ այն գտնի, կը դնի այն իր ուսերի վրայ խնդութեամբ 6եւ կը գնայ տուն, կը կանչի բարեկամներին եւ հարեւաններին ու նրանց կ՚ասի. ուրախացէ՛ք ինձ հետ, որովհետեւ գտայ իմ կորած ոչխարը։ 7Ասում եմ ձեզ, որ այսպէս ուրախութիւն կը լինի երկնքում մի մեղաւորի համար, որն ապաշխարում է, քան իննսունինը արդարների համար, որոնց ապաշխարութիւն պէտք չէ։

 

Refer to above site to see the English/King James version..

[Med]

From the National Geographic, June 1978:

 

I had come here on a spring afternoon in the company of an Armenian priest from Istanbul, a quiet man of middle age. For him it was an act of faith, and a sadness. His people had been gone six decades.

We watched Kurdish children play in the dirt road. Other people, he said, taken over many Armenian villages – Kurds here, Turks elsewhere. His face was impassive: Land is to be used, people must live.

Leaving the stricken church, he touched hand to heart. Such churches were common in Turkey, he murmured, prey to the elements and vandals, ruins of a civilization. There were two in the nearby city of Malatya. We would soon be going to Malatya.

Another sorrow lay deep. I felt it though I am an odar – foreigner, in the Armenian language. The priest gripped my arm.

“Armenians are still being driven from remote villages,” he said grimly. “It is the old hatred. Sometimes a young girl is abducted, or a husband killed. They cannot bear to stay on their land after that. They make their way to the patriarchate in Istanbul. We give them shelter and find them homes.”

I looked out to the distant Euphrates, not wanting to hear such agony. The river was a glinting ribbon on its timeless run to Mesopotamia. The priest spoke again.

“Once Armenians were heavily concentrated in eastern Turkey. Only a few remain. In all the interior, only three churches are working. Malatya has none. But some of my flock are there, and much time has passed since my last visit. Tonight we will meet in a house.” He smiled for the first time. “You shall see the joy of Armenians renewing their faith.”

A few hours later, after darkness fell, the city’s few Armenian families filled a small living room to overflowing. The priest and his deacon, richly robbed, led them in prayer and song in the dim glow of a ceiling light, while incense smoldered.

It was, I thought, as if a band of early Christians had gathered furtively in a cave to worship. Children were baptized, Communion given. One aged, failing woman, scarf on head, knelt with tears of happiness falling. Earlier she had despaired.

I sat with her afterward. “We are sheep without the shepherd,” she said. “At last the shepherd came – and he forgave me.”

Forgave?

She had broken the pre-Communion fast. Faint with hunger, she had eaten a handful of raisins. In torment she had approached the priest, confessed, and been absolved. I saw no greater joy that night.

The old fear was present too. As we left a girl stopped me. “Do not forget us,” she pleaded softly. “We are alone here. We are always afraid that something will happen to cause trouble.”

[skhara]

Recognising the genocide, as tool againt Turkey, is as, or even more disgusting as denying it. The genocide is not a war tool.

 

Nothing wrong with the "enemy of my enemy is my friend philosophy". And yes European countries recongnised it for political purposes. Turks should be discredited, attacked, disadvantaged, and disarmed, and it doesn't matter how it happens. They are the enemy.

 

And why are there so many people obssessed with 'Turkish recognition'? They're still the enemy and not just to Armenians, the fact that they fully back the Chechens, Azeris, and Balkan muslims, says it all.

Edited January 22, 2005 by skhara

[Siamanto]

Kakachik,Siamanto

It is highly unlikely that Hamshens would anytime immigrate to Armenia however by being generous and open minded we could create mini satellite Armenian enclaves inside what once was western Armenia.What’s wrong with that. My Jewish comparison was only mentioned because of their generosity to increase their numbers

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Armat,

As I have already said, I don't have a philosophical issue with the fact that some may or would welcome the Hamshens as Armenian CITIZENS. I simply doubt that I may or will accept them as ETHNIC Armenians!

In any case, the reasons you have mentioned would not considered as "generosity:" I'm afraid that you're being a bit too "generous" towards your views!

Your are simply putting on a "rational" manager hat who's goal is to grow and succeed. It 's true that it's an accepted "best practice" of resource management, but it is also true that it may fail and it does fail in most unusual situations - such as the one discussed here.

 

Please, meet and welcome some of your future hayrenagits! They certainly don't belong in my vision of the Armenian!

 

Hamshen Girls

Edited January 23, 2005 by Siamanto

[Siamanto]

Nothing wrong with the "enemy of my enemy is my friend philosophy".  And yes European countries recongnised it for political purposes.  Turks should be discredited, attacked, disadvantaged, and disarmed, and it doesn't matter how it happens.  They are the enemy.

 

And why are there so many people obssessed with 'Turkish recognition'? They're still the enemy and not just to Armenians, the fact that they fully back the Chechens, Azeris, and Balkan muslims, says it all.

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I agree with both statements!

I would simply add that surprisingly - or maybe, not so surprisingly - those who preach the merits of "RealPolitik" and/or "Political Objectivity" do so ONLY when the Armenian Nation's Policies SHOULD be criticized!

[Dave]

I think we can count them as Armenians... If I'm not mistaken, I think there are Muslims in Georgia, counted as ethnic Georgians, so why shouldn't we seperate Hamshen Armenians?

 

If Hamshen lands were a part of Armenia, a Hamshen wouldn't have been any different from an Armenian (except their religion, of course).

 

Here is a Turkish site about Hamshens.

http://www.hemsinli.com/

 

Do you think that the prime minister of Turkey (Recep Tayip Erdogan) has Armenian origins? He was born in Rize.

Edited January 23, 2005 by Dave

[skhara]

I think we can count them as Armenians... If I'm not mistaken, I think there are Muslims in Georgia, counted as ethnic Georgians, so why shouldn't we seperate Hamshen Armenians?

 

 

If I'm not mistaken, they don't count as ethnic Georgians. They count as Adjarians.

[Arpa]

Here is a Turkish site about Hamshens.

http://www.hemsinli.com/

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MosJan,

Some time ago you had expresed interest in the park-a-bzuk, bagpipe of the Hamshens.

I don't want to promote the site as I am not sure whether it is Armenian or Turkish. When you open it click on "Tulum Dinle" and get an earful.

[Karen]

MosJan,

Some time ago you had expresed interest in the park-a-bzuk, bagpipe of the Hamshens.

I don't want to promote the site as I am not sure whether it is Armenian or Turkish. When you open it click on "Tulum Dinle" and get an earful.

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Forget about hemsinli.com It's a turkish propaganda vehicle, don't be confused. It's designed for those who discover their past to fall into a trap and be brainwashed that they are mountain turks and other crap. The only true armenian-hemsin site is http://www.yaylayolu.info It is owned by one moslem hemsin, who accepted armenian name and last name upon immigration to Germany.

[kakachik77]

Excellent post Arpa! Rather concentrating on imaginary Armenians in Turkey why don't we concentrate on real, tangible Armenians in the Diaspora who consider being an Armenian as a burden. Some people are really changing the subject, because they do not want to look the unpleasant truth in the face.

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I agree, imaginary Armenians they ARE for sure....couple of Turks found a way to get a political asylum in Germany by claiming they are suppressed Armenians, and we are immediately taking them seriously.

[kakachik77]

If I'm not mistaken, they don't count as ethnic Georgians.  They count as Adjarians.

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...and are in war with Georgians for independence.

[Nakharar]

Aren't they Muslim Georgians?

[kakachik77]

Aren't they Muslim Georgians?

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yes but they (Ajarians) don't see themselves as such and much prefer to be independent from Orthodox Georgians, it's not just a religion issue, it's also cultural etc. A better example are Bosnians and Serbs, Bosnians essentially being just Turkified/Islamised Serbs.

Edited January 27, 2005 by kakachik77

[skhara]

Adjarians to Georgians are exactly the same thing as Bosniaks are to Serbs and Croats. They invented an ethnicity based on their cultural turkification.

[Med]

The New Armenians of Western Europe

 

BRUSSELS — Sirnak and Silope are nothing more than small dots on the map, but Armenians rehabilitated from these Kurdish villages along the Turkish-Iraqi border are changing the fabric of Armenian communities in at least two European cities.

 

In Brussels and the St. Jerome neighborhood of Marseilles, the so-called Kurdish-Armenians are seen as the “guardians” and “backbone” of the local Armenian Apostolic churches.

 

Their children fill the Armenian language classrooms, often helping their Kurdish-speaking parents communicate with social workers and community leaders.

 

“They have introduced major demographic changes into our communities,” says a second-generation Belgian-Armenian. “The new-comers are in the majority now and it is no secret that they have altered the face of the Armenian community here. These people are unique because of where and how they preserved their faith and Armenian heritage.”

 

But who are the Kurdish-Armenians, where did they come from, how did they settle in Europe and are they integrating into their new homelands.

 

There are no historical records about their past, but through interviews and informal conversations with their elders, and observing them in their own environments, it is obvious that they are as Kurdish as they can be in their manners, language and customs, but nevertheless, fanatic Armenians when it comes to their Christian faith and roots.

 

Most of them, and interestingly enough the older generation, can recite the Lord’s Prayer (Hayr Mer) in Armenian along with sections of the Divine Liturgy (Holy Badarak), but that’s as far as their “knowledge” of their ethnic tongue goes.

 

At home their language of communication is Kurdish, even with their very young children. Apart from church-related gatherings, they socialize only with fellow refugees and the ethnic Kurdish communities of their immediate neighborhoods.

 

Mesrop Afshar is one of the pillars of the Kurdish-Armenian community of Brussels. “I think I am 57,” says Afshar, who looks more like 67, if not a few years older.

 

He remembers growing up in fear in a small town in southeastern Turkey where 40 Armenian families had no choice but to keep a very low profile among a predominantly Kurdish population of 7,000.

 

“I believe we are originally from the city of Van, but I am not sure,” he said through an interpreter, a younger member of the “Sirnak clan” who had the opportunity to study at the boarding schools of the Armenian Patriarchates of Istanbul and Jerusalem.

 

Afshar also remembers with a deep sense of awe his grandfather’s Bible and tales from his grandmother relating to their roots in the Armenian town of Van only 150 kilometers to the north in Turkey.

 

“Fear and a sense of pressure were constant companions. The pressures were great, but our elders constantly reminded us that we were Armenians despite the loss of our language,” Afshar said.

 

“Our elders used to say they survived the first massacre of Armenians at the hands of the Ottomans in the 1890’s by escaping from Van south to Sirnak where 40 families settled,” he said.

 

Up until 1908, there was an Armenian school and church in Sirnak.

 

Sirnak’s Armenians had relatively few problems until the 1915 Genocide when most of the local population and Armenians living in a number of other villages in the area were wiped out. Some were forced to convert to Islam while others escaped across the border to Iraq.

 

Those who made it to Iraq settled in the Kurdish town of Zakhu, where 70 Armenian families reportedly still live. While no Armenian is being taught, the Armenian school and St. Mary’s Church are still open.

 

Zakhu and Sirnak are only 50 kilometers apart, but in a sea of Kurdish population and with the long-standing feud between Turkey and Iraq, communication between the two Armenian minorities has been minimal.

 

“We were kept apart because of a multitude of complex demographic and geo-political reasons. We lived in a cocoon,” a Sirnak elder said.

 

Those who survived the 1915 Genocide and somehow remained in Sirnak under the tutelage of local Kurdish chieftains did not know if there were any other Armenians left on the face of the earth.

 

They were alone, isolated, and surrounded by Kurds in the region of southeastern Turkey which the Kurds call “Kurdistan”.

 

They lost their language, took on Kurdish surnames to “camouflage” their identity and for more than 50 years struggled against total assimilation into the Kurdish landscape.

 

“I was born in Sirnak and the only Armenians I knew were those in and around our small town. We did not know if other Armenians had survived the massacres,” Afshar said during a recent interview conducted partly in fragmented Turkish or through interpreters — other Kurdish-speaking Armenian immigrants who had learned Armenian since leaving Sirnak nearly 15 years ago.

 

“We could not go around trumpeting our heritage. You might find it difficult to understand, but for all practical purposes, we lived quietly as Kurds of Armenian descent by adhering to our Armenian Christian faith. It was this faith that kept us together as Armenians at a time when we had lost everything else. We were cut off from other Armenians. Our language was gone, so was our literature and history, but our faith was intact.”

 

An Assyrian Orthodox priest came to Sirnak from nearby villages under the cloak of darkness to baptize the newborn, sneaking out before daybreak to avoid attracting the attention of the town’s Kurdish population.

 

Weddings and funerals were done in the same way.

 

“Among ourselves, we were Armenians. As our children were baptized, we gave them Armenian names like Sarkis, Tavit, Noubar, Kevork and Saro but out on the streets we were like the rest of the town’s population. We had Kurdish surnames like Euz, Yalik, Odemish, Yajir, Birgin,” Afshar said.

 

One fateful day in 1965, however, the isolation of the small Armenian population of Sirnak was broken. As if by fate — or sheer accident — an Italian missionary working with the region’s Assyrian Christian minority was informed of “these other Christians” in Sirnak.

 

“This papaz (priest) came and talked to us and later went to Istanbul and briefed the late Patriarch Shnork Kaloustian of our existence.

 

“It was not much later that we saw the first Armenian priest since the Genocide. In time, his visits became more and more frequent. Our teenagers were taken to the Armenian Patriarchates first in Istanbul and then Jerusalem for education and finally, thanks to Patriarch Kaloustian, the entire population of Sirnak and Silope began evacuating in 1980 to Belgium, France and a small group to Holland,” Afshar said with an emotional voice.

 

By 1986, the entire population of Sirnak and Silope were out ... saved from imminent annihilation as Armenians.

 

Today, this peculiar “branch” of the greater Armenian family numbers several thousand citizens clustered around Armenian churches in their adopted homelands.

 

Testimony by first generation Armenians in Brussels and Marseilles is overwhelming. “Their faith in the Armenian church is very strong. For them, the church is not folklore or tradition. It is treated as a national treasure and that’s why the presence of these Kurdish Armenians has given a new lease to our religious life,” says one Marseilles resident.

[Karen]

Also, check out this stuff.

In addition to common knowledge, I was able to dig out some extra info on turkified Armenians around Tokat in Lesser Armenia and Malatia/Adiyaman area in historical Tsopk. just click on the map to see the news.

Visit http://www.geocities.com/cryptoarmenians for details. Site is under construction.

 

P.S.

Anybody fluent in turkish?

Seems this has something to do with Armenians and malatya

http://www.bolsohays.com/haberac.asp?referans=4691

http://www.bolsohays.com/haberac.asp?referans=1342

I would appreciate your brief narrative.

 

K.

Edited February 27, 2005 by Karen

[lara-chan]

my mom's grandparents and her father were from turkey. i know a lot of turkish (and arabic) words due to my upbringing. i used to think they were common armenian words, until i used them on some armenian from iran.

 

chojookh!! kheeyar adom!! eeshalah!

[Med]

Hi Karen,

 

I'll be more than happy to translate these for you. Don't forget to notify me by mail.

 

E.

[gamavor]

The ice is cracking, Ladies and Gents

 

AZG Armenian Daily #068, 16/04/2005

 

 

ARMENIAN CONVERTS IN TURKEY BRAVELY AVOW THEIR NATIONALITY

 

The oppressed minorities of Turkey, most of whom evaded genocides by passing

into Islam, are getting bolder in their speeches and activities as the

country bids for the EU. The Greeks of Pontos, Assyrians, Arabs and

especially Armenians of Hamshen, Mush, Sassoon, Vardo, Zakho and other

regions who were "turned into" Kurds and Muslims are living days of

wakening. The latter sent a delegation to take part in the rally of European

Armenians in front of the European Parliament last September. Afterwards,

excited by the ongoing pressures on Turkey to recognize the Armenian

Genocide, the Armenian converts give interviews to French, German, Belgian,

Turkish and Armenian newspapers.

 

We called the "mother" of "Kurdized" Armenians and Hamshen Armenians in

Germany historian and political scientist Alis (Aliye) Alt to get

information on these issues. He said from his Frankfurt apartment which is

in effect is a castle for preserving the Armenianhood: "We always follow

your articles on Hamshen Armenians and Armenian converts. Thanks to the

influence of these articles that are often posted on the Internet, hundreds

of lost Hamshen Armenians who feared to reveal their identity in past get in

touch with us now. Certainly, the important reforms that took place in

Turkey under the EU's pressure and... the threat that a Kurdish state will

emerge forced Turkey's state circles to be a little more democratic with the

free press and mass media. We call on the Armenians of Armenia and Diaspora

to provide care for their brothers and sisters who were forcefully converted

and who number 1.5 million in Turkey. Time is ripe for a conference to

assemble all Armenians who are willing to get out of forced isolation,

reveal their identity and tell about their 90 years long persecutions in

European institutions. This is to be an all-Armenian initiative with

contribution from all organizations", the author of "Hamshen Armenians in

the Mirror of History" tells.

 

Simon Geonden is from Karmir Khach village of Mush who currently lives in

Wiesenbaden. He lived the greatest half of his life as a converted "Kurd"

but returned to his roots due to the Kurdish national awakening. Emigrating

to Germany as a student, he got in touch with national minorities from

Turkey, including Armenian Genocide survivors.

 

"We are hopeful that the European Armenians will be more kind to us. Some

people have morbid understanding of the converts and want to see everything

settled in a few days. Time will solve all our issues and will heal our deep

wounds", Simon Geonden said.

 

By Hamo Moskofian in Frankfort-Wiesbaden

 

http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg108679.html

[Armen]

Wow, didn't expect it this soon.

[kars]

Wow, didn't expect it this soon.

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Կենացները քաղցրանում են

[TMNT]

Well, they may speak Armenian, but it would be REALLY hard to accept anyone so far gone as an Armenian. A few of them could have been the one or two Armenians that sold out entire Armenian villages like Ben Ohanian in Markar Melkonians new book. By the way, does anyone have a picture of how they look like?

[DominO]

Wow, didn't expect it this soon.

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Actualy, I think this article is highly exagerated, and contain mispresentations.

 

Hamshen Armenians existed for long, and before the genocide, they were "differenciated" before 1915.

 

A large part of those "hidden Armenians" or converted Armenians predate the genocide, because during the genocide, there has been various circular telegrams by Ottoman autorities, which ordered to "relocate" Armenians that were converting to Islam. There has been 90,000 Women and children reported being converted by the Kemalist autorities, and many were just "returned" back, and others few tens of thousands might have been not counted(but given the fact that many of those 90,000 became refugees later, it compensate those not counted). On the other hand, before the genocide, there was hundreds of thousands of Armenians converts, and Hemshens... and there is probably many still living in Turkey and hidding, but those Armenians did not hide following the genocide, or were assimilated during the genocide, but before it, the non-Hemshens more massivaly during the Hamidian reign. From the data I gathered, and some even from the official Turkish foreign ministry official released archival records... during the war, a decision was taken to deport Armenians that were converting, and them too, after were not spared, the garanty was for those Armenians that were already converted before the war and not during.

 

The "spared" Armenians during the genocide, is from what I have read, a myth, beside those orphans that were under the custety of Kemalistic "conversion" "orphanages," Edib himself was part of it, and condemned it. But from those records, and other valid ones... the Armenians converting during the genocide and who were able to escape the "relocation" as a result has been largely exagerated, and is far less than the 200,000 figure often provided.

 

I am ready to change my mind, if I get evidences.

[DominO]

Well, they may speak Armenian, but it would be REALLY hard to accept anyone so far gone as an Armenian.  A few of them could have been the one or two Armenians that sold out entire Armenian villages like Ben Ohanian in Markar Melkonians new book.  By the way, does anyone have a picture of how they look like?

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Those that have sold their owns were not "few" but many.

[TMNT]

Those that have sold their owns were not "few" but many.

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Well, it does not take more than one person to betray a village.

Edited April 18, 2005 by TMNT