kars

Be careful. Technically, Armenia NEVER invaded Azerbaijan. May that be one of the reasons you can’t find a definite date? I think so. There is no such date, stop searching.

Well said, Edward.

I think in art style, composition and theme are secondary factors, in this respect (unlike, let’s say, in literature, where the language should be the primary criterion: is William Saroyan an Armenian writer? – No.) Modern Dutch painters do not follow Rembrandt’s style, but they are still Dutch painters (Dutch came to mind since Edward mentioned them here, and pictured them quite accurately). In art, I believe, ethno-cultural background and culturally inherited personal skills, talents and inner philosophy are the most important criteria to define the affiliation of an artist with one or another nationality or culture. In this respect – yes, Aivazovsky is definitely an Armenian artist. I have a tougher question: should Sayat Nova be considered an Armenian poet (bard)? Keep in mind, that the overwhelming majority of his khaghs (“songs”) were in Turkic; Armenian ones being only #3 on the list, by quantity (after Turkic and Georgian). In fact, his Turkic-language works outnumber Armenian in 3 to 1 ratio. And never mind that his music is anything but Armenian.

Lana already posted the song in the image format; here it is in text: Երբոր բացուին դռներն յուսոյ եւ մեր երկրէն փախ տայ ձմեռ Չքնաղ երկիրն մեր Արմենիոյ երբ փայլի իւր քաղցրիկ օրեր Երբոր ծիծառն իւր բոյն դառնայ երբոր ծառերն հագնին տերեւ՝ ցանկամ տեսնել զիմ Կիլիկիա Աշխարհ՝ որ ինձ ետուր արեւ Տեսի դաշտերն Սուրիոյ Լեառն Լիբանան եւ իւր մայրեր տեսի զերկիրն Իտալիոյ Վենետիկ եւ իւր կոնտոլներ կղզի նման չիք մեր Կիպրեայ եւ ոչ մէկ վայր է արդարեւ գեղեցիկ քան զիմ Կիլիկիա Աշխարհ՝ որ ինձ ետուր արեւ Հասակ մը կայ մեր կենաց մէջ ուր ամենայն իղձ կ'աւարտի Հասակ մը ուր հոգին ի տենչ՝ յիշատակաց իւր կարօտի Յորժամ քնարն իմ ցրտանայ սիրոյն տալով վերջին բարեւ՝ երթամ ննջել յիմ Կիլիկիա Աշխարհ՝ որ ինձ ետուր արեւ

I don’t know his name – he is using a moniker in this forum: forum.azerinet.com/index.php?showforum=2 The forum is in Russian, and I do not, of course, participate – I simply go there every now and then, mostly for humour. Nationalism – I can live with that. But in this forum you are most likely to encounter vivid stupidity mixed with infinite hate, and that’s fortunately, funny rather than dangerous or even serious. I mostly enjoy reading their accounts of “History of Azerbaijan” and typical patriotic calls like this: Пора резать армян! Банзай! (“Time to slaughter Armenians! Banzai!”), or this kind of reassurances: Мы еще до Еревана дойдем, иншаллах!!! (“We will get to Yerevan itself, inshallah!!!”) http://forum.azerinet.com/index.php?showtopic=2591&st=0 And so on. Good reading. Edit: I removed the hyperlinks, we don't wont to boost that website by(unintentionally) creating links - Sasun

Yes, good guess. But it is evident that you haven’t studied in Ataturk University, hence – poor knowledge of "facts". Judeo-WASPS are closeted Armenians! Recently in one Azeri forum someone was insisting that one of the reasons Turks are “losing the propaganda war with Armenians” is the fact that there are many influential Armenian Senators in Washington. The poster is (or at least claims to be) a political science graduate from Baku University.

Hahahaha!! Don’t you want to know what Abdulhamid II’s nickname was among nationalistically inclined Turks in Constantinople just before s*** hit the fan? It was “Bedros” – Bolis Turkish colloquial derogatory epithet for “Armenian” (like “Khachik” in Russia today). A hint: look at some pictures of Abdulhamid II and let me know: does he look like a Turk, or does he look like a Bedros? Hmmm… ? Let's be honest.

"Most of the janissaries were from the Balkans." There is no statistics re ethic composition of janissaries – we can only speculate. Besides, the sources of their recruitment always changed, as time went by. And it means that no one (including you) can be so sure – as far as the percentage of Armenians in that perfect war machine is concerned. But consider this: knowing that this institution (janissary) came into being much earlier than Ottomans conquered Balkans, it is fair to assume it was originally composed of aboriginals of Anatolia and Caucasus. So much for that. "For Armenians, Greeks, Serbs, and Bulgarians, they aren't something to be proud of" I didn’t think we were talking about “pride”. Facts are facts. “Pride” belongs to another category. For example, Abdulhamid the Second was Armenian, from maternal line. Now – analyse this fact and combine it with “pride” (whatever you mean by “pride”). I thought we were talking about history, and not about sentiments. Regarding Bulgarians (which you mentioned). Didn’t you know Bulgars are slavicised and christianised Turks by origin, to begin with? Didn’t you know they spoke Turkic, as their native language, at the time the institution of janissaries was being introduced?

Ever heard of janissary? The best of the best in Turkish armies (though not all of them were necessarily Armenian by origin).

That's fine, Shaunt. But please explain, why worshipping Hebrew god(s) is any better than worshipping Iranian gods? Just a question.

I assume the answer is “yes”. One of my favourites (best performed by immortal Glakho): Դուն է'ն գըլխեն իմաստուն իս, խիլքտ հիմարին բաբ մի անի... Transliteration (from Tiflis dialect): Dun en glkhen imastun is, khilkt himarin bab mi ani… Translation (by Kars, from Tiflis Armenian): You’ve been wise altogether; Don’t [ever] compare your intellect with that of an idiot… (of course, it sounds much better when performed in original language and music)

Gamavor, Looks like many of you have copies of Desk Encyclopedia of Famous Phrases, or something like that. Nice quotes, though – I must admit. Except I can’t figure out what any of it has to do with “Armenian” forum. Too much westernisation, perhaps? Why didn’t you, ladies and gentlemen, try to insert at least one Armenian sentence in your vast library of quotations? I hope I won’t irritate our irritable host (moderator) again (whatever his name was – the one who pulled the Socrates quote on me), by quoting Sayat Nova here. May I?

Yes, you guessed it right, Stormig. Except, I should’ve added that these names were probably not borrowed directly from Arabic, since they are mentioned prior to the expansion of Arabs. But these Arabic and Armenian names undoubtedly share the same Semitic ancestor.

There even was a Catholicos in Echmiadzin, by the name of Makar (Magar). Makar I Teghuttsi, from 1885 to 1891. Arpa already correctly explained the origins of this name.

All Armenian Bagratid kings had names of Arabic origin, except two Gagiks. Here are two more Arabic names, in addition to Abas: Ashot and Smbat.

It’s Surb Makar (Surp Magar, in Western Arm. pronunciation), also known as Kapuyt Vank. It was built in 560, not in 4th century, as stated above.

Well, definitely. As soon as I am shown a single instance of personal insult, from my end, I’ll edit or delete it immediately.

Oh, well. Here is Artaxias, again: “I don't care much for a mongrel with an Armenian name that isn't alive and poses no threat.” If I were to take you serious, I’d ask about your definition of “mongrel”, in this context. But since I am not taking you serious, I’ll save your time and my time. Deal? Deal! More Artaxias: “I see no problem with pre-late Sassanid IE names” Ahem… May I ask, sir/madam: do you see problems with post-late Sasanid IE names? Hahahaha!!!!!!! Anyway, I think our dialogue is over. Thank you very much for participating – that was a pleasure. Bye.

Oh! One more suggestion for you: While you are busy shooting all those Armenians with Turkic-sounding surnames, don’t forget to bomb Gulbenkian’s Museum

Artaxias, Count 1: "Կուլ գնալուց մի հիմարություն պետք է դուրս տաիր չե..." Hey, you, Artaxias! With all due respect, you sound like an idiot (note: I use this language only because you started it (“հիմարություն”). Your Armenian is as bad as your comprehension of elementary English is. And your knowledge of history is even worse than your English and your Armenian. May I, with your permission, correct your inexcusable mistakes? I guess the answer is “yes”, so there we go: “Կուլ գնալուց մի հիմարություն պետք է դուրս տաիր չե…” should be written as: Կուլ գնալուց մի հիմարություն պետք է դուրս տայիր, չէ՞... OK. We already established that your Armenian sucks just like your English. Գնացինք առաջ: Count 2: You also said this հիմարություն: “I see no problem with pre-late Sassanid IE names or loanwords from Iran or with modern Russian ones.” (1) There is no such thing as “pre-late Sassanid IE names” – you just fabricated a new term (badly composed, I must add). (2) “I see no problem…” also sucks: who really cares if you do or do not see a problem with a particular name? “Artaxias” is not Armenian. Period. Գլուխդ մտա՞վ: Չեմ կարծում... Count 3: Furthermore, your chronometer needs new batteries – name “Artaxias” predates Sasanids. See? You learned something today. Say: “Thank you, Kars.” (I am waiting) You have major problems. You must’ve said in the beginning that you simply hate anything what associates with anything Turkic - before you got yourself entangled in something as complicated as linguistics. Evidently, you are ignorant in this area. Why don’t you go to the “Genocide” topics and be happy there forever? Those are the only places where you can bash anything Turkic with impunity, with your big-mouthed Turk-shooting virtual comrades.

I never knew there is such name as “Shaunt” – Armenian or not. Can’t be Armenian, based on spelling, since Armenian language has no diphthongs (as in -au-). But it could be a case of yet another arbitrary transliteration, which is so common with Armenian names written in Latin alphabet (for example: Megerditch). If your name is what I think it is (Շանթ) /shant/, then it is very much Armenian. “Շանթ” in Armenian means “sharp lightning”, and is very ancient and very pagan, as a name (sorry to disappoint you). But I repeat: I could be mistaken. “Shaunt”, after all, could be something else.

Artaxias: “Մեծամիտ, դու չասեցիր որ ռուսերենում ել է նույն նշանակությունը կրում:” Միամիտ, իսկ դու չասեցիր, որ տարրական անգլերենը չես հասկանում: One more Artaxias: “In any case, there are far worse examples. That's just the tip of the iceberg. It seems like if it wasn't for the Genocide, Armenians would rather live under Turkic rule.” Well, I am lost here. Your logic is beyond me. What does the etymology of an Armenian word have to do with the nonsense you just posted up there? By the way, with your attitudes, you should get rid of your profoundly Iranian moniker and get an Armenian one.

No. Next question?

“Since it has turkic origins, any person that gives their child such a name should be shot.” Ouch! That hurt. Then go ahead and shoot all Demirchians, Deukmejians, Atabekians, Karakhanians, and hundreds of thousands of others. But you misunderstood again: the name has Armenian origins. The word which is at the root of that name is of Turkic origin. “Could you provide an example in Russian?” I already did and I have no idea how you managed to miss it. But I can try one more time. Here: There is a word in Russian – марал /maral/; definition: “large deer with big antlers”. Evidently, in Russian the word lost its original Turkic meaning of “female deer”, which Armenian, Georgian and Kurdish preserved. If you don’t get it this time again, I am going to give up on you.

Artaxias, you are both correct and mistaken. Mistaken in the form you put your question in. “Maral” (մարալ) in Armenian means “doe”, specifically referring to local native species of roe deer Capreolus capreolus. Now, the word “maral” itself has Turkic origins, like quite a few other Armenian words, but that’s in the area of linguistics (etymology). Furthermore, the word “maral” is found in all local languages (Turkish, Azeri, Georgian, Kurdish) and even made its way to Russian language.