Arpa Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 (edited) SONS OF THE ARMENIAN NATION WHO "TURNED INTO" KURDS AND TURKS Azg/arm 18 Jan 05 It was a taboo till recently to write of the Armenians who were forcibly turned into Turks and Kurds during the Ottoman reign. Most of them, living today in Western Europe, Western Armenia and Cilicia (modern-day Turkey), are going through a revival of national identification. After the Armenians of Hamshen, those from Sassoon, Mush and Taron, who were forcibly converted into Islam,are especially easy to talk with about their past and present. They try to return to the bosom of their nation by overcoming their "guise", the names and surnames, and to fight for their rights and to recover the historic legacy of their forefathers massacred by the Turks. One can meet those Armenians returning to their roots in Germany as well as in Armenia especially after the war in Iraq and the vents at the Turkish border. Some "Kurdish" Armenians fought in the ranks of the PKK (Kurdish Workers' Party) and got disappointed after Ojalan's capture and left for Germany where they could find a wide field for political and national activity. They settled in Frankfurt, Wiesbaden, Stuttgart, Mainz and elsewhere. "I was born in Karmir Khach (Kzl Akhach) village of Taron. We shunned the Armenian Genocide as we accepted Islam feigningly and were Kurdish-speaking. My father and brother enrolled in the PKK to fight against Turkish fascism, they were imprisoned and tortured numerous times. I've been studying andworking here in Germany for a long time and am in touch with the Armenian communityand the progressive forces. But in Western Armenia, especially in originally Armenian Vardo town, which was stricken by an earthquake in 60s and where my relatives live, human rights violations are rampant", Simon Kostanian (Sardet Kosdun), who regained his Armenian identity today, tells. Razmik Hakobian (Nureddin Yagub) from one of Cilicia villages was a PKK warrior but was arrested and jailed in one of Ankara's horrific prisons. He is a writer and a film director who is planning to shoot a film about the life of Diaspora Armenians. "My parents concealed our identity particularly because being an Armenian was an unforgettable affront in Adiamani where I am coming from. Despite this, many "Kurdish" and "Turkish" Armenians were called "gyavur". The film I am trying to shoot is about an Armenian outcast and also is an odyssey of a Western Armenians who survived the Genocide. I shall realize my plans if I find necessary support in Armenia and by the help of our confederates in WesternEurope", Razmik tells. The number of Armenians, who only now discover their identity, above all in Sassoon and Mush, amounts to thousands. "There are around 1000 Armenians in Mush. The Turkish government has forgotten us for a while, as there are the Kurds to deal with. The sons of the Kurdish people say sorry for their fathers' deeds who were killing Armenians together with the Turks", Armen from Mush says. By Hamo Moskofian in Wiesbaden-Marseilles Edited January 19, 2005 by Arpa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Again, the myth of alleged Kurdish remorse, propagated through selective reporting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 so believe or not to believe??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 (edited) Again, the myth of alleged Kurdish remorse, propagated through selective reporting. style_images/master/snapback.png Remorse is better than no remorse. I don't think anyone of us has heared about Turkish remorse have we? But then you are still basking in your vainglory. Edited January 19, 2005 by Nakharar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Remorse is better than no remorse. style_images/master/snapback.png Knock knock. Truth vs. myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 To you perhaps. It doesn't matter to me if it comes from your best "friends" the Kurds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 To you perhaps. It doesn't matter to me if it comes from your best "friends" the Kurds. style_images/master/snapback.png Look here. Unlike you or that snug reporter, I have "field experience" and know exactly what I'm talking about, aight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Look here. Unlike you or that snug reporter, I have "field experience" and know exactly what I'm talking about, aight? style_images/master/snapback.png Stormig what are you up to!? are you trying to convince us your not talking to your self here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 I was thinking of that too. No reference whatsoever. More like a gloss over experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 I was thinking of that too. No reference whatsoever. More like a gloss over experience. style_images/master/snapback.png aient that special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Med Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Again, the myth of alleged Kurdish remorse, propagated through selective reporting. style_images/master/snapback.png You get a rash whenever the word Kurd is mentioned. Strange indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 (edited) so believe or not to believe??? style_images/master/snapback.png In last month's issue of "Nouvelles d'Armenie" there was a long article - with many pictures - about the Hamshens. I will scan some of the pictures when I have time. They really look Jurkish! I have - and probably will always have - problems calling them "Armenians!" In any case, not until every fiber of any Jurkish mindset in them is washed away! Would you consider a cousin named Mehmet Halacoglu? PS. I have an excellent mattress, so need for a "halac!!!" Edited January 19, 2005 by Siamanto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Knock knock. style_images/master/snapback.png Mama said not to open the door to (gray) wolves! Or was it "Mama said to..." Truth vs. myth. style_images/master/snapback.png The essence of the Jurkish Nation and Identity are based on myths! What a Hypocrisy! Look here. style_images/master/snapback.png And the mask falls uncovering the true Jurkish nature!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 (edited) This is rather ironic Siamanto that the Jews can accept everyone who even remotely thinks they are Jews and yet some of us have difficulty accepting Hamshens as Armenians. Yes we had this topic revolving around here but lets face it we are backward and tribal when comes to acceptance even amongst us. I met a true Hamshen in Boston who spoke Armenian with a strong dialect but nevertheless I accepted him as Armenian and that made him happy and probably steered him closer to his true linage however had I brushed him off he would of identified with the Turks more. So much what we think and feel identified with is emotionally based. Anyway I just wanted to say few words. Edited January 19, 2005 by Armat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 (edited) This is rather ironic Siamanto that the Jews can accept everyone who even remotely thinks they are Jews and yet some of us have difficulty accepting Hamshens as Armenians. Yes we had this topic revolving around here but lets face it we are backward and tribal when comes to acceptance even amongst us. I met a true Hamshen in Boston who spoke Armenian with a strong dialect but nevertheless I accepted him as Armenian and that made him happy and probably steered him closer to his true linage however had I brushed him off he would of identified with the Turks more. So much what we think and feel identified with is emotionally based. Anyway I just wanted to say few words. style_images/master/snapback.png Armat, I totally agree with every word you have said and was aware of it! You know me enough to tell that I'm sincere! But I am who I am and we are who we are! I have already made peace with myself and I can cohabitate with my "shortcomings???" PS I will post some of the pictures that I've seen and would like to see how others will react! Edited January 19, 2005 by Siamanto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Armat, allow me to disagree. Firstly, it's wrong to compare Judaism with being Armenian mainly because the first is a religion and the second a nationality. Of course, we Armenians happen to use one of national identifications as our religion because it is very unique and important to our story of survival throughout centuries. Our literature is full of references to "Kill your father and mother if they abandon our religion" as in Raffi's "Samvel"; Vartan Mamikonian led an army of only 60,000 people straight to death to prove that we don't JUST give up who we are. And lastly, my grand grandmother walked that ***ing dessert, lost all her four kids to hunger and thirst on the way , lost everybody but chose to stay ARMENIAN, she remarried in Soviet Armenia and created a second Armenian (yes, Christian) family. To me being Armenian is about SURVIVAL and not surrender, that's our national character and that's what I am going to teach my kids when they are learning about life, "the story of our people, and that we just don't give up". Now, the story of Hamshen to me belongs to a story of totally another nationality. Sorry for the rant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armat Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Armat, allow me to disagree. Firstly, it's wrong to compare Judaism with being Armenian mainly because the first is a religion and the second a nationality. Of course, we Armenians happen to use one of national identifications as our religion because it is very unique and important to our story of survival throughout centuries. Our literature is full of references to "Kill your father and mother if they abandon our religion" as in Raffi's "Samvel"; Vartan Mamikonian led an army of only 60,000 people straight to death to prove that we don't JUST give up who we are. And lastly, my grand grandmother walked that ***ing dessert, lost all her four kids to hunger and thirst on the way , lost everybody but chose to stay ARMENIAN, she remarried in Soviet Armenia and created a second Armenian (yes, Christian) family. To me being Armenian is about SURVIVAL and not surrender, that's our national character and that's what I am going to teach my kids when they are learning about life, "the story of our people, and that we just don't give up". Now, the story of Hamshen to me belongs to a story of totally another nationality. Sorry for the rant. style_images/master/snapback.png Kakachik I was thinking more in term of strength philosophically that is. Strong and confident people, nations can react generously meaning they have enough reservoirs of self-identity to accept their distant cousins as one of them. That is strong and that builds culture, economy since generous thinking has a ripple effect. The more we resist the deeper we sink. Jewish comparison is valid since they accept each other to some degree even without any religious affiliation. Lot of Russian Jews who immigrated Israel and US were essentially atheists but still they got integrated into Israeli state. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 You get a rash whenever the word Kurd is mentioned. Strange indeed. style_images/master/snapback.png At least I'm not dumbed-down. The sons of the Kurdish people say sorry for their fathers' deeds who were killing Armenians together with the Turks", Armen from Mush says. But that shouldn't matter since according to the forum mods there are multiple personalities running around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 BTW, Siamanto, I am surprised your head doesn't send you rolling sideways or backwards sometimes as often as bolting forward into a crash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 At least I'm not dumbed-down. But that shouldn't matter since according to the forum mods there are multiple personalities running around. style_images/master/snapback.png Stormig I'm not limited on the question at hand, and I'm not just running around checking your multipal personalities,.....should I say more or you want to cut the crap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Kakachik I was thinking more in term of strength philosophically that is. Strong and confident people, nations can react generously meaning they have enough reservoirs of self-identity to accept their distant cousins as one of them. That is strong and that builds culture, economy since generous thinking has a ripple effect. The more we resist the deeper we sink. Jewish comparison is valid since they accept each other to some degree even without any religious affiliation. Lot of Russian Jews who immigrated Israel and US were essentially atheists but still they got integrated into Israeli state. style_images/master/snapback.png Armat, I agreed with the fact that rejecting the Hamshen will bring them closer to the Jurks and they MAY become Armenian if we accept them; but, I don't agree that "not identifying them as Armenians" is a sign of: - lack of confidence - weakness - lack of generosity - etc. etc. I just like to call a cat a cat! Being Armenian is not merely a "nationality" like being American or - to a lesser degree- French! Being Armenian has also ethnic, Cultural and religious connotations. (Personally, I'm not religious, but I consider myself an "ethnic Christian," because I grew up among Christians!) The comparison between Jews/Israel and Armenians - not Citizens of the Republic of Armenia - does not hold! PS. I would gladly welcome Italians, French, Slavs, Chinese, Native Americans etc. among Armenians! Personal choice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakachik77 Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Armat, your way of thinking is suitable for coutries such as France and United States or any other Western coutry, none of which are surrounded by hostile muslim nations ready any minute to crush Armenians. Based on our history some of which I desribed above we cannot quite be "generous" when it comes to our identity otherwise we'll just melt into the big muslim cultural and religious pot. And how we'll we ever "trust" Hamshen to defend Armenians and go fight against their muslim brothers (Azeris, Turks) let's say if there was a war, now which side would they take their religious side or their supposed ethnic side. I mean they already once chose to hide behind the Turkish veil and only chose to come out of their hiding (now) when being Armenian is not such a bad idea. How can you be sure that they'll be with us this time around. I guess the Hamshen identity is quite malleable bending to the side most favorable at that moment. As you already mentioned I believe, Armenians are nothing but stubborn. Now I don't of course reject that Hamshen have ethnic Armenian origins, so do a lot of so called "true" Turks. The issue here is one of national identity, again I will repeat, I don't think we can afford as Armenians to be generous in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamanto Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 BTW, Siamanto, I am surprised your head doesn't send you rolling sideways or backwards sometimes as often as bolting forward into a crash. style_images/master/snapback.png Please, don't blame yourself if you can't grasp and comprehend it and remain surprised! Intelligence has never been a Jurkish national trait. It's not your fault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Please, don't blame yourself if you can't grasp and comprehend it and remain surprised! Intelligence has never been a Jurkish national trait. It's not your fault! style_images/master/snapback.png Can't grasp??? Don't make me laugh! Size that ego down, prick! Nobody in this forum is as interested in discussing themselves or others as you are, so know where you stand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Stormig I'm not limited on the question at hand, and I'm not just running around checking your multipal personalities,.....should I say more or you want to cut the crap? style_images/master/snapback.png Cut what crap? Has Nakharar admitted he's my alter ego yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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