Karen

Arpa, just a few words of what I think about it. I'm not a big supporter of political (!) "dialogue" between Armenia and Turkey. There is nothing to be discussed anymore. Turkey's lost its chance to ratify damned Protocols, Armenia has pulled out from ratification process. Now it's Turkey who must make a step forward. And the only content of negtiation would be the liquidation of consequences of the Genocide. This is what Serge Sargsian, Edward Nalbandian and all other Armenian officials say. No talks about what happened in the past (as for us it's clear it was Genocide). No attempts to re-qalify what happened into something else, something less dramatic. Only talks about fixng the problem. What would suit Armenian Government in terms of having turks fixing the consequences of Genocide - that I don't know. Now, as far as contacts of so called "civil society" of the two countries are concerned... What problems do you see here? Yes, Hetq is the type of media which is always in opposition to the Government no matter what. They are the kinds like Levon Ter-Petrosyan who would only survive and go on as long as US, EU and Turkish cash injections to them are made. And I can care less. For one Armenian media resource of that kind there are same number of pro-armenian, helthy, sober, steightforward media. AND THEY ALSO COVERED WITH JOY THE OPENING OF ST. KIRAKOS IN DIARBEKIR. It's jus the news coverage, that's all. And it relates to us, Armenians. So, why ignore it. Personally, I can see only advantages of St. Kirakos affair. Firstly, local kurdified Armenians can finally find themseles a place of legal, official worship, a place where they can by a copy of Bible in Turkish or Kurdish and read it, etc., etc. Secondly, it becomes a good precedent for Armenians of Turkey to claim back and restore other hundereds upon hunderds of churches around the country. It's definitely better to do that as it saves out historical heritage along the line - compared to bulding of dozens of new churches in Istanbul area. Finally, it's a mutual step towards each others between kurds and armenians which leaves turks out of the process, makes them merely a bystanding observer. (I have no illusions about kurds but we can benefit from their relative tolerance to us and get back some of our properties, etc.) Summarizing, I see nothing wrong, if properties of turkish armenians expand to include churches (and not only churches) in Armenian Highland and adjusent areas. What ours - shall belong to us. If turkish armenians are the only ones who can realize their property right and restore the title - let them do it. If these assets attract some couple of thousand visitors from Istanbul, couple of dozen from Yerevan, and 3-4 people from Diaspora - I see no harm.

To all those in the Spyrk. Please, spread this sad news from Javakhk, Georgia. As you might already heard, Georgians on July 20-22 - in 48 hours - crashed the United Javakhk Alliance. United Javakhk Allianc is/was the only organization, capable to protest the Kars-Akhalkalaki railroad construction, which one of the main links in panturkic corridor arounf Armenia. Alliance was fighting against expulsion of Armenians from Javakhk (in the course of so called "white genocide" just like it happened in Nakhijevan before). Javakhk Alliance fought against redemption of Armenian churches from Armenian community and their subsequent georganization. In so many words - it was the stone in the Georgian shoe. Now the active Alliance members are arrested and brought to prison on the made-up charges of alleged illegal firearms possession, etc. The Georgian SWAT operates in the region, controls the city of Akhalkalak and suburbs. Two local Armenian police were shot under unspecified circumstances - allegedly by Georgian SWAT to blame local Armenians and to have the case against Alliance members. Please, spread the word to your local Armenian organizations (ANCA, AAA) as Armenian mass-media is silent on the matter, not to mention Georgians. We can't afford loosing our "Northern Zangezur" (Javakhk). We can't afford loosing yet another province of Armenia.

As you might already know, Azeri government is currently destroying a single big non-muslim cemetery in the center of Baku, capital of Azerbaijan. Due to outflow of non-turkic popuation from Azerbaijan, many of the graves remained unattended. This includes Armenian graves for obvious reasons. The pretext for the destruction is the construction of a motor-way through the territory of the burial site. However, had there been a little respect to the buried ones, the construction could have bypassed the cemetery. Here, Azeris acted as usual, as they did with khachkars in Nakhijevan. See the destruction video here: The grave-stones have Russian-language inscriptions as Baku's predominant language was Russian. Howvere, those are mostly Armenian and Russian graves with some Jewish graves here and there. You can search the Internet for details under the search term Montino cemetery destruction, Narimanovskoe cemetery destruction (same place with two different names applied) or just Baku cemetery destruction. Share the link in your Armenian community or on-line with your friends. It is already in the Russian news. Armenians (especially those of Baku descent, most of whom have relatives on that exact cemetery) are trying to appeal the destruction through the Russian embassy in Azerbaijan. We have all chanses to expose vandals for whom they really are this time. Karen.

I don't know where you guys are coming from... Your logic, as I see it, is the following: "Let's make some sesible deal with Azeris, so they would be cool with us, and let's move on. If it takes any little concession from us, which does not harm much our security, let's do it". You all are missing one thing. The Turk or Azeri Turk is not us. It is we, who would be satisfied by getting back the ruins of Ani and nothern slopes of Ararat. Not the Turk. The Turk isn't satisfied until the complete "return" of Artsakh to their jurisdiction (read, complete annihilation of Artsakh Armenians). Same with Anatolian Turks. The recent article in Russian media says (quoting some top-ranking Turkish officials) that even if Armenia withdrows from occupied territory around Artsakh and agrees to a postponed referendum (in 15 years) on Artsakh's status (in former Soviet borders) - Turkey (SIC!) will still not open its borders with Armenia, up until the complete return of Artsakh to Azeri jurisdiction... This is the logis we are dealing with. The only reason for, how you call it, the "hysteria", is that recently (in last couple of months) this very logis became even more pronounced than before. And in a recent week it was picked up by the OSCE Minsk Group mediators and, even more so, by some RoA officials, like Oskanian and such... Stay tuned and see what's coming. We gonna have public protests in Yerevan, Moscow, Saint Petersburg, all over Russia, as well as in some communities over Europe, - held in front of Roa embassies. We don't need the Government, which admits the very thought of giving something back. Sorry that you guys didn't even apply to your local Armenian organizations and RoA diplomatic offices for explanations.

Aaron jan - that's the essence of the problem. People in Diaspora (I'm also a diasporan) fail to recognize that this is not the matter of "arevdur". What we control now is a minimal space which provides security to Artsakh. Giving anything back in the course of arevdur increases military risks exponentially. Had we controlled lands up to the Kur river, I could have agreed to some territorial compromises. How else could I make this more clear? Imagine a Cilician kingdom, having excess to Mediterranean sea and controlling major trade routs. And than it falls under attack of Egyptian mamluks, who, as a way of compromise with Armenians, propose a small autonomy in the mountains of Zeitun and Hajn... Don't you realize that the only "arevdur" Azeris are talking about is bringing Artsakh back to a tiny autonomy with no mutual borders with Armenia?

This is an interview with Armen Aivazyan from http://www.hayq.org , the director of Ararat Center of Strategic Research. Sort of a non-partisan think tank. He basically confirms that things can get bad. That there were (and are) a lot of signs of that.

Artsakh is already an independendt state. We don't need any "recognitions", if we pay for it with the return of any lands. Especially for Abbass80. If you had no chance to visit Agdam region, (which in your option could be subject to surrender), I can describe the picture to you as clear as it gets. The tollest building in Aghdam-2007 is the minaret of a mosque - the only building staying intact. When you climb the minaret to the top you see a panorama of abandoned and ruined city around you. What you also can see - and count! - are the buildings (and in clear whether the windows in the buildings) in the city of Shoushi... It is only 25 kilometres (some 15 miles) away from Aghdam - a dirct artillary shot. If you give up Agdam plain you are welcoming the azeri agression over again. We've been there, we've seen it. Any surrender of any piece of land anywhere around Artsakh - is a way of saying to azeri turks "please, come and f... us again. We enjoyed it the last time". Which I don't see feasible. Azeri media provocation? All right. Then why our boston-educated mouthpiece foreign minister Vardan Oskanian treats us like dirt? Why wouldn't his ministry dismiss the azeri falsifications, which are already 4 days old? Where is the reaction of Armenian government for Gods sake? Nespapaers? Independent media? Do we as armenians not deserve to be kept informed? I know it seems much calmer for your shore of the Atlantic. You see the bigger picture - which generally is all right. But when you have a sort of hands-on apprach, when you hear weekly Azeri president's threats to attack Armenia-Artsakh (with no single reprimand from international community, mediators, OSCE). When you hear mediators saying what suits Azeri side only. When you wittness a complete silence of Armenian Government - no reaction at all. When you couple that with the destruction of Jugha khachkars, when the word again smiled at us and did nothing to stop the vandals... you know, sometimes it's just more than one simple Armenian with the sence of dignity can handle. Let's see if our action does any difference.

If most of you are in LA, then you could have at least shown that you care by collectively going to your local ANCA office and demanding some explanations on what's happening. Spread the message - raise public awareness. Show that you care. At least e-mail your local Armenian oranizations. I switch off due to time difference. Following up tomorrow.

Coverage of action by Groong: http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg190700.html

There will be a Kocharian - Aliev meeting in St. Peterburg (Russia) approximately June 10. The Minsk Group mediators are coming to Armenia around June 6 - to test the grounds for surrender. It is expected that St. Pete meeting will turn into an Armenian catastrophy. During this several days we should organize ourselves - show to mediators, Kocharian, anyone our standing on the issue. If they agree - than we, as ordinary Armenians don't. We should succeed in creating an atmosphere, in which no concession, no surrendering of lands is possible. We should get our message to those in power - be those Armenian government or Diaspora organization, financing such government. This becomes really serious as you get no news coverage from official sources - they censore stuff. Do anything you can do within legal boundaries. Organize meetings before Armenian embassies in LA and DC. Do something before its too late.

If you are not aware of the recent developments, please, be informed that French and Russian mediators of Minsk Group, speaking at press-conference in Baku, made a shocking to all Armenians statement. They said that there is an agreement at hand, according to which all 7 liberated regions around Artsakh will be returned shortly (probably during the course of this year). They also stated that there is an agreement that Artsakh (within the former borders of soviet autonomy) would become an integral part of Azerbaijan... If this doesn't ring the bell - than what? Below is a list of web-resources, which take part in action. The list is growing. Plus, we started a fax-e-mail compaign (just like ANCA or AAA does). E-mails, with the declaration attached, are being sent all over Armenian political figures, parties, NPOs, TV channels, etc., etc, all over the world. ANCA is informed. The campaign effectively becomes something what we had in 1988 on the rise of Artsakh movement. We have the news coverage from top Russian news agencies. Don't get us wrong - this is not the matter which concerns Russian Armenians only. We have votes from EU Armenian NGOs as well, particularly from Switzerland and Germany. Please, spread the link to the action to as many Diaspora web-resources and forums as possible. Not only the number of signatures of users is important. The very participation of the Western Armenian (Diaspora) web-resource will signify the unity of Armenians all over the world. We had a Shourj-par (Armenian circle dance) around Aragatz in early summer of 2005. This one becomes a Shourj-par around Armenia and Artsakh. We do not give personal contacts / e-mails for obvious reasons. You can sign-up to the action at the link above. Staying ignorant when the land is sold - just like at Kars/Moscow treaty of 1921 - is your choice. Think of what you'd tell your children, when there will be no Armenia to go for summer vacation to. Think of becoming Assyrian. You like it? I don't. OpenArmenia Администрация ArmenianHouse.org Сообщество NKR Сообщество "Карабах" Сообщество Artsakh.info Коллектив Genocide.ru Portal.Am VIP Multilingual Forums Аналитический центр "Митк" www.haias.net Hayastan.com город Дилижан www.dilijan.ru sirumem.com Association Suisse-Arménie KarabakhOpen Andranik Youth Club "Aliance" гражданская инициатива Sumgait.info Haylife.ru Merhayrenik.narod.ru Миацум.Ру Armiane.spb.ru Haytun.com www.armenia-online.de Нвер.Ру Jugend-und Studentenföderation "Nor Serunt" Фотоблоги Армении Armenian Knowledge Base

http://openarmenia.com/ Karen

Is there anyone speaking turkish? I've been visiting this site http://www.haberler.com/ and came across an article titled: Pasinler'deki Kurtulu? T?reninde Ermeniler S?ng?lenmedi The link to the article: http://www.haberler.com/pasinler-deki-kurt...meniler-haberi/ This festivity is taking place in historical Basen (today's Pasinler) between Erzerum and Kars. http://resimler.haberler.com/haber/28/715028_97651_o.jpg

Many thanks to those who replied. I talked to the guys and it seems the question had beed resolved. It was a memoir-autobiography of some figure who's originally from Terjan area. And he briefly mentioned in his Armenian language writing the two names, without metioning who or what it was... It made them puzzle over the names, as in the context those could have ranged from the personal names-nicknames to names of geographical localities, etc. Finally, they connected to the offsprings of the author, who currently live in Armenia, and they clarified that Rap and Khnkinots actually were nick-names of fedayees, who were born in Terjan area. Personally, it doesn't make a lot of sence as, for example, "Rap" couldn't be rationally interpreted based on Armenian linguistics... So far, so much. Karen.

Barev dzes! I'm looking if anyone have info on the villages of Rap and Knkianos, which were supposed to be located around Terjan (Erzerum villayet, Erzerum sandjak, Terjan kaza). I personally checked Armenian Encyclopedia of Topography (the 5-volume one) and Sovier military maps. Nothing was found. So, maybe you heard something about those localities? This is needed for an upcoming article/publication (unfortunately, russian-language) in Russia-based Aniv magazin. The Aniv guys kicked-off a series of publications about various gavars of Western Armenia. To be honest, I'm not sure why are they looking specifically for those two names. It might be some important detail in the research that they do... I'll keep you posted. http://www.aniv.ru Harganqnerov, Karen.

As mentioned above, burnings did occur all over the place, but hardly en-rout in the desert or mid-way in south Turkey north Syria. Customarily, turks would pull numbers of people together from the surrounding villages and burn them in their own barns in Western Armenia, away from major roads. So, if there is some solid evidence of Khulp district, which is in Mush-Sassoun area, I would translate Argun as Arghene (Arghana-Maden).

The close spelling version you get to Aghene is either Egin (former Akn), or Arguvan, or Arghana-Maden. The first two being in Kharbert (Kharput) villayet at all times, the last being sometimes administratively subjugated to Kharbert, but most of the time - to Diarbekir villayet. All three are towns, not villages, far away from Mush plain. So, if we discard these locations, than we really need to look closer to Khulp in Mush-Sassoun area. It might be found somewhere there. Can the account of Khulp district be trusted? Where did you get it from?

Stay in touch. I promise, I will find more details. Hopefully, military topographic map that I have will help. I will considere Argun-Arghene (and their variations) in and around Khulp area in historic Sassoun.

Strange... I have the concise Dictionary of Toponimy of Armenia and Adjasent Areas - a 5 volume, over 5 thousand pages edition. There is no village called Argun, either in Taron-Mush, or any other part of Armenia. Maybe there is another name for the village. I tried all versions of Argun (Arkun, Arrgun, Arrkun), to no avail. How about some other version of its name?

What's strange is that plane was full of VIPs. Ex-head of Armenians secret service. Another ex-head of secret service's son. The family of ex-head of bankrupt "Armenian Airlines" carrier, several public officials... What's amazing is that in one of Russian media a guy from aircraft business reviels that it is next to impossible to "kill" a machine like A-320. It's all computer guided. Once you are locked to the Sochi controll tower, the rest is just a computer game. The plane's radars assess the weather conditions, descent paths and so on. The only tough part is when you abandon the first descent, as pilots did, and attempt the second try. In this case, pritty much like in a PC program, you hit Esc button to abandon the first descent, make turn around, and hit Enter, to start the descent program again. The only problem here is that pilots can not really check whether the descent program had restarted - there is no technical indication on the screen to that effect. Here, it is likely that (1) pilots didn't bother to keep the controls on check and be ready to intervene, once they see that in reality the descent program did not start anew and the plane dives into the sea. Or (2) they ran out of cerosine (highly plosible under Armenian circumstances). Or (3) it was terrorism, explosion, suicide mission - which I do not believe. In either case - I am (and all Armenians are) in deep sorrow. It should not had happened...

Some clarifications. Why "owner"? See, it all matters, when it comes to the so-called "civil society", - a ficticious construction which Armenia is blamed by the "civilized" world for not having. Armenian NGO's are EXTREMELY active when it comes to self destruction of Armenia. That is, when it comes to the rights of religious and sexual minorities, when it comes to the destruction of delapidated one-story 200 y/o "buildings" in Yerevan to give way for K. Kirkorian's and G. Kafesjian's projects - they are right there, moaning. They are ready to furnish a world-wide outcry about nasty and corrupt Armenian auhorities, violating somebody's human rights. No surprise to me - Armenian NGOs are funded by US and EU funds. But when it comes to azeri cultural genocide - there is no reaction on their part. Only Oskanian's letter, Bagdasarian's promise to say something next year at international forum and ANCA's action. And nothing else. By taking the action on behalf of the forum, or internet resource of any other kind, we show that we have that fenomenon, called "civil society", which cares for true Armenian issues. We show, that if Armenian government doesn't give a heck, we do care. That we are ready to undertake the initiative. And however clumsy (Armenian internet resources taking action) that might sound, - it is still better then nothing. The 2006 is a turning point in Artsakh settlemet. That means that this is the only window of the opportunity for Armenian traitors of all sorts to trade Armenian liberated lands in exchange for fake "peace" with Azeris, to make any other kind of dirty dealings. At the same time, the negotiators, the Minsk Group etc., plead for the public of both countries to more actively influence their governments to end the conflict in 2006. So, when it comes to Azeris, there is only one reaction - we want Artsax back and Armenians out. But when one looks at Armenian society, one can see the dangerous patterns: "hell, we're all tired of this mess, let's get it over with, let's give azeris whatever they want, all the territories, plus Lachin, plus (even!) Shushi, and finally sign the peace deal". Why is that happening - I have no idea. Definitely, it is not because of poor life conditions. To the contrary, this looser's paranoya is taking over the minds of mostly well-to-do Armenians, who stumble across the issues of blockade and no reliable communication for their growing businesses. So, if 2006 would ever become a "turning point" for Artsakh settlement, it will be first and foremost the fight for the minds of the society. Different groups of influence would try to explain simple Armenians why Artsakh is (or most commonly "is not") vitally important for Armenia. All of us need to watch out for some major sh...t coming our way. We need to be alert as ever. And, concluding, we should realize that what happened in Jougha, is not just another act of turkish vandalism. It is a test for our readiness for the 2006 "settlemet". Unfortunately, we proved to be ignorant and lousy, as ever. By saying we, I mean the Armenian society, et al. But I still hope that at least those who spend their times at forums and especially FORUM OWNERS and moderators, who are responsible for the creatinon of the patriotic atmosphere at the respected forums will take action this time, or next times. As I said before, some major challenges are coming up. We, as the "internet people", must act together, as a minimum prerequisit for the successfull passage of 2006. We must tune up and act together. The coordinator of the above mentioned action could be reached by the electronic address, mentioned above. It was just one person on a mission, a simple Armenian programmer. And he was able to bring together tens of internet sites and forums, many NGOs as a co-signatories of the letter. The list is still groing. Stay tuned, more coming. Happy holidays. Karen.

That's BS, he never fought against Armenians. It was added into his biography during soviet times for him to fit "in the box". To the contrary, he fought under general Antranik against turks, before sovietization of Armenia. And he nearly missed the execution by Stalin and Beria in early 50s, just because of that accusation (which in soviet politics equalled him to Dashnak). But he was warned by academician Alikhnov (an Armenian by race, who developed soviet nuclear program), so Bagramyan was ready for the plot and had some proof of not being Dashnak.

Why not? Snipe out the ignorant world "community" by this petition.

Dear Forum Owner, As an aftermath of the Jugha Kachkars' destruction by Azeri soldiers, Russian language Armenian internet resources took a collective action-complaint to multiple international institutions, governments, mass-media, etc., pleading to stop and punish Azeri nazi-like behavior with regards to Armenian cultural heritage of Nakhichevan. You are wellcome to join the group of signatories of this action by signing the aforemention document. It is prepared in several languages, including Germant, French, Italian, Russian, etc. Thn English version of the text is attached. The goal of the action is to show the world that the Armenian internet resources of Armenia and Diaspora act together, as a single unit, thereby, effectively enforceing the concept of Armenian worldwide unity, - something that is particularly challenged by our opponents. Just copy the attached letter and add the web-address of your domain at the top, and sign the letter with your name at the bottom. Then send it to the institution of your choice or choose from the list of e-mail addresses of institutions at the following thread at "openarmenia" web-site. Please, visit http://forum.openarmenia.com/index.php?showtopic=8150 for details, or write to avetyan@arinberd.com The Statement of the Armenian Community Representatives in Relation to the Continuing Acts of Extermination of the Armenian Cultural Heritage in Azerbaijan arev.ru armenia.ru armenianhouse.org artsakh.info artsakhworld.com genocide.ru hayastan.com haylife.ru openaremenia.com sumgait.info Center of Social Economic Monitoring NGO Armenischer Jugendausschus München We, the representatives of the Armenian community, have been deeply offended and indignant at receiving the information about the extermination of the last khachkars (cross-stones) in the region of Old Jugha in Nakhichevan, where around a hundred of Azerbaijani soldiers armed with hammers, spades and heavy machinery started the destruction of the unique medieval Armenian khachkars, tombs and monuments preserved in that corner of historical Armenia. Taking into account the fact that the khachkars of Jugha (Julfa) are a heritage of not only Armenian, but also the world civilization placed under the protection of UNESCO, we appeal to the world community to pay attention to this act of vandalism towards the universal cultural property. While the international community is making efforts to reconcile two nations, the present act of vandalism sanctioned by the officials of Baku demonstrates once again the real intentions of the Azerbaijani government – that is to finalize the ethnic cleansing of the autochthonous Armenian population of Nakhichevan by a cultural genocide and extermination of the Armenian civilization remnants in this part of the historical motherland of the Armenians. Azerbaijan has been conducting similar acts of vandalism and Armenophobia during all the 70 years of the Communist regime, when the Armenian khachkars have been systematically ruined or removed from their original places. After having acquired independence, Azerbaijan with a new zeal continues the annihilation of the Armenian traces on its territory. In 2002, owing to the joint efforts of Armenia and UNESCO, it became possible to stop the final extermination of the khachkars of Jugha (Julfa). However, Azerbaijan continues its policy of cultural genocide in gross violation its responsibilities within the framework of UNESCO. Not a single organization or a representative of the intellectual circles in the whole Azerbaijan has publicly condemned the actions of the country’s government, and this fact raises a particular concern. Such cynicism and indifference of the Azerbaijani society towards a unique medieval monument is quite shocking. In the state of such a blind hatred towards all Armenian, there can be no words about trust towards Azerbaijan and Azerbaijani society, thus all the calls for the reconciliation process of the two nations to enable the civil diplomacy sound cynical and vulgar. With the present letter we appeal to the international organizations, to the representatives of the intellectual circles, and to the people of all nationalities in order to publicly condemn the act of vandalism of the Azerbaijani authorities towards the medieval Armenian Cemetery of Jugha (Julfa) in Nakhichevan. We are urging UNESCO and other international organizations to support the removal of the khachkars remnants to Armenia, where they will be protected from the barbarians. We also appeal to the sensible part of Azerbaijani people to pay attention to the present act, condemn it and call the officials of their country to immediately stop this vandalism. Video data: http://www.hairenik.com/Haireniktv/HA_TV_Clip04.htm