Sip

And before someone jumps in here to say I am "brainwashed", I have actually witnessed a real rape in the street in Iran. I was about 12 years old. I have never witnessed such a thing in the US (though not saying there are not far too many rapes going on )

Ok it now sounds like you are trying to make the case that there is no rape or girls being trafficked into prostitution etc in Islamic countries. If that's what you think, then I can say you are very Naive. I know you don't agree with the Islam that is practiced in Iran but there, a man has the right to beat up and even rape his wife. That is far more f-ed up than what we have in the US as at least the laws here are designed to protect individual rights (not to strip them away). But I will not argue that the society here also has many problems ... what civilized society doesn't?

They Don't have a choice. Islam does not give them a choice. If they choose not to wear the Hijab, they are not muslim. Sassun, thanks for the clarification again with teh Niqab/Hijab ... I think I understand. I think my confusion is with those other muslims that don't allow themselves to not remove the Niqab. With all these different kinds of muslims, I got confused

By the way, Sassun, I completely forgot the issue with the Hijab and the photo-id and bus drivers checking it etc ... but I will come back to it tomorrow. Now that you have said a muslim woman must wear Hijab (e.g. your future wife for example), then how can they remove it for a bus driver to check? Let's say they can have women security officers at airports ... but not all bus drivers or police officers can be women ... Anyway, just something to ponder for later. I don't mean to add more posts to this thread but this is definitely an interesting discussion.

It is not about Islam Sassun. He has said the same thing many many times now accusing me (and others) of being brainwashed by CNN and Fox news (whatever that means) and here again making grand claims of none of us who are against Islam never having had a muslim friend etc ... come on now that is VERY stupid (once twice is ok we all make stupid posts here and there but he is doing it in almost every post he makes). By the way Sassun I will repeat it again that I have had and still have many great muslim friends. I have no doubt that there are a lot of great people who happen to be muslim. My main gripe is with the Religion itself (the same with Christianity). We have had exactly similar kinds of discussions in the Christianity threads (it doesn't mean I have been brainwashed by Al Jazeerah either just because I don't like Bible thumpers)

How about my racism towards stupid posts?

Excellent. You know I love the answer The good thing is, you just separated church from state which means there is hope for the two of us getting along. Now I'm going to stop posting so much in there threads for a few hours because I have been running my mouth too much

That is exactly the point. You are both saying there is no freedom in manipulating Islam and you are also saying things like "hijab is a choice". Well that is NOT what you mean. You mean Islam is a choice (not the Hijab). The Hijab goes with the Islam. You should be more careful about how you present your thought Sassun. Because it often seems like you are trying to glorify certain aspects of Islam. There is NO choice with Islam. (the same goes with Christianity).

How the hell would you know? I have had (and still have) MANY great muslim friends. I have many great jewish friends. I have had Russian jewish friends. I have good Iranian friends. Stop your childish assumptions. Shahan, consider this a warning. If you keep repeating the same kinds of posts over and over, I will start to edit/delete them. You say the same thing once, twice, ten times great. But after that, it is not posting, it is spamming. And spamming is NOT tolerated on this forum.

Great. Another great discussion interrupted by this bull shit.

No my friend, you just said Hijab is a requirement of Islam. So if someone chooses Islam, then that person must wear the Hijab. If a person chooses not to wear the hijab, then that person is NOT a muslim. So the Hijab is NOT the choice. Islam is. Now that we have established this, this is my question and I think you have answered it. I just need to make sure: In a society in which you live, do you think a person is allowed to choose to be muslim or not?

ok so there is no choice in Islam. You either wear the Hijab and are muslim, or you don't wear the Hijab and are not muslim. I still don't see how the "Hijab" is a "choice". Seems like Islam is the choice. You see where you are confusing me?

Wait wait wait ... so you are saying one has the choice to ignore some requirements set forth by Islam?

How can something be both a choice and a requirement?

Yah but I much rather not be dead because of it. I know I know the many "disagreements" on Islam but you have to understand my distrust of your religion as some of the disagreements put me in a VERY bad predicament

Isn't that the ultimate test? The actions of believers of a certain religion? I think so.

Sassun, you are confusing the heck out of everyone because you never answer anything directly. We ask you what you believe and you say Islam. We ask you well how come Muslims force people to wear Hijab (in places like Iran) and you say what does that have to do with anything. We ask you why muslims in places like Iran consider non muslims infidels and you say that's not how it is. Well, how is it? Why don't you act like a man and say what you believe instead of avoiding the difficult questions and pretending to believe some sort of super Islam where there is no evidence of such a thing practiced ANYWHERE in real world.

Sassun, answer this direct question: Are you saying the version of Islam practiced in Iran is not true Islam? I thought they were Shiites just like you. Are you saying your interpretation of Islam is the correct one and what they are doing in Iran is wrong?

Not in Iran. It is only in your wonderful version of "Islam" that it is a "choice". But as I have said MANY times, it seems your version of Islam is not as Universal as you would like to believe.

I have tried to ask him that MANY times but he keeps avoiding it. All he has really said is that he thinks Islam is the Universal Truth and that he feels good after reading the Qur'an. He has also said that he can't really explain it as some of the things cannot be translated from Arabic. So anoushik, unless you are willing to learn Arabic, or unless you are willing to just take his word that Islam is the Universal Truth, don't expect any good answers here

I don't know ... that's why I ask. You tell me why this is causing anger in the muslim community. And how about this? Mr. Sasun, if it's not a big deal, then maybe you can enlighten me about what is the big deal about this?

So you think it's ok for women to be asked to remove their hijab for their photo ID's?

Freedom of religion: A woman choosing to wear Hijab in public Separation of church and state: Not allowing a woman's personal choice to wear hijab from being an excuse for not taking a photo ID without covering her face or allowing a male police officer from examining that photo id when needed. Yet another reason why Islam cannot coexist within the contexts of separation of church and state and why it bothers Sassun so much.

That is the problem Sassun. You constantly claim to be "muslim" but that is not very Islamic of you. You are implicitly advocating separation of church and state ... getting along, living with each other etc yet you try to claim otherwise. You are one confused dude but that's ok. I wouldn't expect any less from an intelligent young man who is trying to somehow make Islam work in his favor. I'm sure you will eventually reshape Islam to fit your needs ... but as I have said before, there is what you think and then there is real life (and real Islam).

Only if you want to be killed