Arpa

mind you, there would have been no trouble on the part of the turkish authorities to admit if he were an armenian. after all, the same opinion accepts him as greek,which is hardly any better from the turkish nationalistic point of view. besides, sarkis balyan (the one who built the dolmabahçe palace and numerous other structures, including mosques and imperial tombs) was an armenian, and a book written by the late pars tu?lac? on the balyan family is in every good bookshop (and beyond my budget, damnit). Sinan did not have the good fortune of having the -ian ending to his surname, hence an easy. The practice may not have been as common then, in fact the concept of surname is a recent phenomenon. But denying Balyan's heritage, not Bali or Bali-oghlu, would have been tantamount to declaring Osman and Ali as Armenian names. Fortunately Vardan Mamikonian also had the -ian ending otherwise he could have been turkified to something like Mamikoghlu Vurtan or some such. In fact Osman is not even a Turkish name, another misconception of equating Osmanian/Ottoman to Turkish. Osman is from the Arabic Uthman, since there is no "th" in Turkish all the "th"s become S.

Sinan. aka Sinan the Great, Khoja Mimar, Kosa Mimar Sinan was born May 9, 1490 in Aghrnas, region of Kesaria. Died June 8, 1588 Polis. His exploits and genius is a matter of record. He was the chielf archtect of Sultanate from 1539 on. In his "Autobiography" ( the book of that title) he reveals the fact that he was born in an ARMENIAN family. As a young boy he was abducted and sent to Istanbul as an "ajemi oghlan". Following his elementary education he was inducted into the military academy (1503) He served in th ranks of the "yenicher" with distinction and earned the rank of captain. His specialty was structural engineering, specifically bridge construction. In 1573, by the edict of Sultan Selim II Armenians of Kesaria were ordered exiled to Cyprus. Due Sinan's intervention and his good offices at the sultanate his family was spared the fate by the order of the Sultan to "spare the family of the chief royal architect". This is archived in a series of June 5, 1930 to May of 1931 in the journal "Turk Tarihi Enjumieh Mejmusas" of those dates. Perhaps Ali can look them up if they are still intact and unmolested. The fact that Ali's sources describe Sinan as anything but Armenian is not new. Read any (Turkish) archeological (trash)treatise, you will see Assyrians, mentioned, Hitties and even Urartuans may be acknowledged, Byzantians and Romans are paid tribute but Armenian or Ermeni will not even be mentioned. Even Armenian script will be explained and dismissed as an "old exotic and exctinct language that has not yet been deciphered". What a bunch of COWARDS!! Of course!! All the above memntioned cuLtures have bitten the dust, the only surviving one, the only ones whose ghosts are still alive, the only one that may still assert its claim on the land is ... ERMENI. Ali, can your compatriots pronounce the word? Let's hear it. E R M E N I

Here is that story of coffee as told by a non-Armenian non-Turk. Anush @lla. Shirin olsun. http://savvy.mpr.org/show/features/2001/20.../feature2.shtml

quote:Originally posted by Domino:Is he still in Turkey ? McCarthy on these months is still reported being in Turkey... that is costing much to Turkey for now, after all the vaccations McCarthy recieved, pied by Turkish associations. McCarthy is not a historian, he is a fraud. Yes he is a F.... FRAUD, a paid/hired lover. There is a word for people of that profession. But the more we we read and comment about his garbage the more credibility he may gain, not unlike the garbage that we refer to as "prophecy" by certain other people that is nothing but a xenophobic and ethnocentric wishful thinking that gains credibility and becomes synonymous with "gospel truth". What an oxymoron? They don't even read the gospels!!

I don't know where and what "aurgup" is. Some day I may find it. I have to relent to the Greek "agropolis". Yet, I know that there is a sector in Aleppo knows as "'arghup". quote:Originally posted by Boghos: quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: quote:Originally posted by gamavor:Bellthecat, Please explain to me which part of my post is derogatory or offensive. To say something like this it should be a lie. Which part is not true. That turks "reshaped" many Armenian churches into mosques, that Ali's original family name steams probably from Turkmenistan, or the fact that turks are barbarians. Which one is not true? i tell you which ones: 1. i don't know of a single turkish mosque converted from an armenian mosque, probably with good reason, because as far as i can see the shape of the armenian churches would not support a muslim-style congregation. there are examples of greek churches turned into mosques, and some very early ottoman mosques scarcelyy distinguishable from byzantine churches, but this is at least partly because some greek shapes partially fit the need for muslim worship. if there are any armenian churches turned into mosques, please tell me which ones. 2. my original family name doesn't stem from turkmenistan. it stems from ürgüp in cappadocia. if this is going to make you happy, ürgüp is a corruption of the greek "procopios", which in turn is very likely to have been a corruption of some hittite or luwian name (i had seen in one - turkish - source that it came from the hittite "ur-kup" meaning soft stone, but since i know no hittite and haven't seen it elsewhere i take it with a huge grain of salt. 3. i won't get into yet another row about whether we are barbarians or not. it's getting boring. I also expect an intelligent discussion or at least an informed one. There have been several documented instances of Armenian churches being transformed into mosques. I am sure that Steve can provide you with an extensive least, otherwise you could simply look for yourself starting with the internet, for example here: [url=http://armenianstudies.csufresno.edu/Architecture/nichebuttressedsquare/kars/kars.htm]http://armenianstudies.csufresno.edu/Architecture/nichebuttressedsquare/kars/kars.htm[/uR L] As to Armenian churches being converdted to mosques, it will take at least four bulldozers to accomplish the job. Armenian churches have the cruciform shap and the altar invariably points to the east. A legacy of our "arevapoasht"(sun worsipping) past? Whereas a mosque must face to the south, Mecca. Sevgili Ali, you must suffer of that terminal Turkish ilment of amnesia. You forget that (Ermeni) Mimar Sinan was commissioned to refurbish Byzantine churches to conform to Islamic specifications and that the Armenian architect Trdat spread the Armenian architectural tecnic as far as Rome. Did we learn from the Parthians or tha Sassanians is immaterial as long as it was an Armenian that took it to Europe. That reminds me of "Turkish coffee". It was an Armenian that introduced it to Vienna, but the idiot, as we have come to be, introduced it as a "Turkish staple", as at that time the prevailing atmosphere was; Armenia/Armenian... who/what? You mean Turk-ish?? Has anything changed???!!! Not if we still maintain that yogurt is Turkish word and that basturma is a Turkish delicacy. When did they learn how to cook on pit fired with camel/horse dung?

My sentiments EXACTLY. We have long gone over the "talk" mode. Now it is time for ACTION!!! Here it is Hovsep. Friday, October 11, 2002 Mccarthy: Armenians Prefer Not To Speak With Anybody On Massacre Any More ERZURUM - The U.S. Kentucky Louisville University Historian Justin McCarthy said Armenians preferred not to speak with anybody on massacre with those who don't share the same views with them. He said Armenians thought that realities would be revealed if those issues are being discussed. Prof. McCarthy, who will address the ceremony that would be hold for the opening of Ataturk University 2002-2003 education year, visited cemetery of martyrs in Karskapi, Yanikdere, Yesilyayla, and Alaca. McCarthy, who is seen as a rare scientist who could consider Turkish-Armenian relations impartially and who could openly announce his views in every platform, pointed out that he had visited Erzurum 35 years ago. Pointing out that he was often threatened by the Armenians at the beginning of his studies, McCarthy said they also threatened his family. ''However, the Armenians changed policy recently, and put an end to their threats,'' he noted. McCarthy said the Armenians preferred not to speak with anybody the massacre issues with those who don't share the same views with them, adding that the Armenians convinced many people in Europe and in the United States that Turks committed massacre. He said that Armenians think that realities would be revealed if they discuss this issue with those who don't share the same views with them. Armenians think most of the people are already looking at events from their perspective; that is, in the way they wanted, and they wanted continuation of this, he added. McCarthy said people for centuries believed in those lies, and it is not so easy to change their ideas, and noted that the Turkish government did its best in this respect. He said, ''this is not only the job of the governments, everybody, including universities and NGO's should exert efforts in this respect.'' Prof. McCarthy had attracted attention with a speech he delivered in the U.S. House of Representatives International Relations Sub-Commission. He had said ''I am here to oppose a parliamentary decision which disregarded the sufferings of the Turks, and which announced the cruelties, that were reciprocally made during an intercommunal war, as genocide.'' Prof. McCarthy was awarded with Turkey Medal of Merit, and was given 1st Sukru Elekdag award. He was given honorary doctorate in 1985 by Bogazici University and in 2000 by Suleyman Demirel University. McCarthy has works on demographical structure in Anatolia during World War I, deportation of Moslems from the Balkans, Crimea, and Caucasus, and the Ottoman Turks. Anadolu Agency 10/7/2002 4:38:46 AM Turkey - E.U. Association: We Can Talk About Existence Of A Serious Double Standard About Progress Report Cakmakoglu: Turkish Armed Forces Always Has To Be Ready For Mission Due To Turkey's Strategic Importance Air Forces Commander Asparuk Says There Was No Extraordinary Activity In Incirlik Base Cyprus- Direct Talks Would End If Greek Cypriot Administration Is Accepted To E.U. What Should Turkey Do Now? Setting A Date For Accession Talks Alone Isn’t Enough

Oops again! Use the same URL, go to the alphabetical index and look for "cumin".

Oops! My "chaman did not project. Hereit is; http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/eng...l?Trig_foe.html

Chaman che-man!!! If you think the above is a silly play on words, a pun, a barakhagh you are right. There is a reason for this madness. A few days ago I promised to write about apukht/apuxt and chaman. I did. Tragically when I finished it my system froze before I had a chance to save it. Disaster, you say? No. Blessing! Even though the item was kind of complete and it showed that my suspicions about the misconceptions of the words was kind of proven correct, I have since learned a little more about the subject, and I have discovered that my suspicions were totally justified. Before we come to the main point let us talk about apukht/aapukht and basturma. Just as in the case of all the other Middle Eastern delicacies that the we, the Armenians, introduced to the west, we advertised them with their Turkish names. It seemed to be an innocuous process at one time as there were very few Turks in the west, hence, even though we called them with their Turkish names, such as dolma, saram, kebab... basturma the general public recognized them as being Armenian. The picture is different now, there are more Turks in the west and they are challenging it, and rightfully so, since even though none of them may be original Turkish their names are. Even though most of those delicacies may originally be Syrian and Lebanese (the Syrians are still the masters in the art of Middle Eastern Cuisine, specially the the sweets) the names that WE advertised were Turkish. We also hinted that the Turkish word "basturma" may be incomplete in describing that delicacy, since it only describes one aspect of the process, the word is based on the root word of "bas", to press, to step on, it refers to the process of pressing the meat. The process of making apuxt is relatively simple. Slabs of red meat, preferably beef but sometimes other s as mutton etc. is salted, a mandatory step of preservation, cured for a few day, drained and hung to partially dry, followed by covering it with a (red) paste composed of "chaman, red dye and tons of garlic. Sound familiar? MosJan, where is the oghi/araq?? (do you want to hear about oghi, raki, araq and araqi?) Stop salivating all over my keyboard!!! Whereas as above, the Turkish word (basturma)only describes one aspect of the process the Armenian word, "apuxt" does refer to the whole concept. Even though "apuxt" may be a generic term it has come to be reserved to describe one specific delicacy. The word may be applied to many other foods as it is based on the pahlavi "a-puxt" (Once again, at the present we attribute all these these words to Pahlavi, why could it not be that the Pahlavs borrowed them from us in the first place?) It is based on "a=without" and "puxt=cooked", i.e. "un-cooked". Makes sense!!! Generically it applies to any uncooked, preserved foodstuff, but it has been narrowed to apply to "apuxt". You name it. Could "apuxt" be applied to pickles and "ershik"? Chaman che!! Man!! Armenian- "chaman", Turkish "chemen". As always. Armenian does not have middle sounds like "oe" as in the French "oef" or "a" as in "hat", the Turks take Armenian words like "orinak", pronounce it "oernek", and "chaman", pronounce it "chemen", and, voila.... Turkish? Observe!!! I have a suspicion that the word may have Chinese origin. "cha-man"?? Every source I have looked describes the paste that covers apuxt as chaman/chemen. Most references suggest "qimion/qemon" as being the source of, i.e. cumin. WRONG!!! Chaman and chemen are equivalents of Cumin. We know what cumin is. It is extensively used in Arabic (kammoun)and Indian cuisine and its distinctive pungent smell cannot be ignored and dismissed: cuisinehttp://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/generic_frame.html?Trig_foe.html Apuxt does not contain cumin/kamoun/qimon/qimion. We know what cumin is. It is an herb with a distinctive pungent odor and flavor. I had known that the paste covering that delicacy was composed of a powder, that originally was yellowish in color until it was colored with a red dye (vortan karmir, kirmiz, cochineal red?) Now I know what it s!! I have known it for some time. WRONG AGAIN???!!! (Ajarian and Sukyasian should revise their works and distinguish between Cumin and Fenugreek.) FENUGREEK? What is the Armenian word for "Fenugreek"? There may be one clue. Some of the references allude to "jabourr" as "haykakan qimion". I have yet to find an extended description of it. See it for yourself. http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/eng...l/Trig_foe.html

quote:Originally posted by gamavor:"qubetha" or "kube - kubeta" is a loan word also in south-western Slavic languages. As to the similarities between mosques and Russian "quebeths", I trust Bellthecat that he has never seen Russian Orthodox Church. Only "qubeths" (minarets) are similar of course. Yes Gamavor, I omitted the fact that Slavs also use the word in its varietions. If one would dare go even further the Latin word "cupola" is thought to have derived from the same root, cumpota, cumpola?Russian churches don't feature "minarets". If we were to call narrow steeples, belltowers, zangakatuns minarets then the Russian structures may also qualify. The Russian, (and other Salvic) churches are best characterized and described by their "onion shaped" domes. A word about "minaret". Even though this word has come to exclusively mean the tower attached to a mosque it does not impart the true meaning and purpose. The word(minaret) is from the Arabic (if slightly altered) "manara(t)" which in fact means "light house", from noor/nar, light. I don't think the Arabs call that structure a "minaret", the correct word for the tower is "midhan /mizzan", i.e. a structure from where the "azan/call to prayer" is broadcast.

quote:Originally posted by SAS:Sireli Arpa, nerqobervats barern inch tsagum unen( turqakan, arabakan,parskakan) yev, yete hnaravor e, khndrum em tal stugabanutyun@? 1.BastURMA = bastirma/pastirma ( turq.) 2.GavURMA/KavURMA = gavirma( turq.) 3.DondURMA ( turq.) 4.ShaURMA( shavrma/shauvrma/shavurma) - araberen bar e? 5. Dolma ( turq.) = tolma( hayeren) Arajin yereq turqeren barer@ pokharutyun en araberenic/parskerenic, te @ndhakarak@? Kankhav shnorhakal em` SAS Voch sireli SAS, bolorn al zut Trqeren en. They are all original Turkish. In my past response to the topic I wrote a sermonette to whom it may concern. I consider it our duty to (re)build and reclaim our heritage, not to destroy it. Heaven knows it has been destroyed enough. In Antony's words; "I come to praise (Julius) Caesar, not to bury him". Beware! There may be another sermonette at the end of this post. 1. Basturma, Turkish to mean "pressed". We will see why and where the word and the notion comes from when we speak about "apukht/apuxt". Sometimes I wonder whether that delicacy the Jews claim to be their own is not a corrubpted form of the Turkish word as well as the delicacy itself. Does not "pastrami" sound perilously similar to "basturma"? 2. Gavurma, Turkish based on the verb "gavir/gavur" to fry. Movses is correct, it is amnother way of preserving meat and saving for the future or taking along on a journey. I wonder if the Turkish word "gavur" to fry has anything to do with "giavour". They have fried us enough times 3. Dondurma, Turkish based on "don" to freeze, i.e. frozen. 4. Shaurma, Turkish. This is very interesting, even though it is originally Turkish this form is arabicized. The native Turkish word is "chevirme", it is arabicized to shaurma because ther neither CH not V in the Arabic. Another curious thing about this is that even though this word is Turkish the Turks themselves have abandoned it and instead they use "doener kebab" instead. Doenme (unlike donma which means to freeze) means to turn. 5. Dolma, Turkish. It is from to fill, to stuff. Add to that "sarma", also Turkish to mean to roll, to wrap. I will write about apuxt/chaman under separate cover. In the meantime here is the sermonette. The subject of names of foods is a recurring event. I have, on many occasions, without success challenged my correspondents to list uniquely Armenian cucinal names and or for a list of uniquely Armenian dish with an Armenian name. I don't know any except "khash"? We have a word for barbecued meat, "khorovats" which is based on the root of "khorel/kharel" to sear, to char. Almost all of our dishes have foreign names, if it is not Turkish it is Arabic, Persian or other. It is very easy, that is if we are willing. It may be too late already. We introduced most of the Middle Eastern to Americanand the west but we taught them their Turkish names. We brought barbecued meat and we called it kebab instead of khorovats, we introduced sour milk and we taght them "yogurt". Mind you, contrary to the prevailing wisdom "yogurt" is not a Turkish word, it is Armenian based on "yogh/yegh" an IndoEuropean word that is the origin of words like "olil/olio/huile" etc., definitely not original Turkish even though they borrowed it and use it in the form of "yagh". Yogurt is Armenian, it was probably "yeghort" originally to mean the remnant the "mnatsord" after the yegh/oil/butter was extracted. On the contrary "madsun/matsun" is a foreign word, it is from Arabig "maajun" that means "kneaded/shaghvats". we use the word in another form too "matsik" to mean paste. We brought that delicacy of rice and hamburger rolled in grape leaves and we called it "sarma", turkish, even worse, we called the meatless kind "yalanchi", also Turkish to mean "liar/fake" because it is meatless. Mind you, even though those words may be Turkish none of the dishes are original Turkish More than a hundredd years ago Garegin abp Srvanstiants in his book "Hamov Hotov" suggested to Armenians most of these foreign food names. He suggested that dolma be renamed lits, ice cream/paghpaghak be shortened and used in more esthetically appealing "sarnoush"(based on sar/ice and [an]oush), that baklava be named "tertush" and more. He was poohpoohed and ridiculed since by then our alienation was so ingrained that the public did not even realize that what they were spesaking was not Armenian but Turkish. I have seen this in America even now, some speak Turkish thinking that it is Armenian. He may have not taken seriously for all the aforementioned but perhaps mostly because he suggested that sarma be renamed "bllor/pllor" that sounds like a childish word for a certain anatomical part. And the beat goes on. We advertise food festival at an Armenian institution, often at that most Armenian institution, the Church and display, pilaf, shish kebab, dolma, sarma, baklava, burma, tabbouleh, lahm ou ajin, mhammara, hummus.... ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Go ahead, pooh pooh me and dismiss me to as Garegin Srvantstyants was a century and half ago and the meantime sell food with Turkish names at the church. It was easy at one time, there were no Turks in America and we got away easy, now they are coming to the food fairs and challenging us and asserting that we claim to be Armenian dishes are all Turkish, and they are selling those same foods at their mosques and cultural centers as Turkish food, and they are right. In this department we have no leg to stand on.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:the superficial similarity between the drums of the armenian churches and the seljuk kümbets (mausolea) have long been noted. in the past, it was customary to ascribe the similarity to armenian influence on seljuk turks, and during the early republican period it was customary to deny it (on the part of the turks). does anyone know anything about this subject? cheers, I am neither an architect nor do I know much about the subject. One word above caught my attention and it made no sense until I read about the subject. The word "drum" is mistranlslated by those "experts". The Armenian word that it alludes to is "thmbuk". This is the diminutive form (ending in "uk/ik") of "thoumb"(some of us will recognize it as "toump") that means mound, also used in the sense of dam, again a mound to hold water back. It is used in reference to the process of building a dome. The structure was built over a dome shaped mound and shaped like one. Yes "tmbuk" to mean drum is also spelled similarly but the nuance is in the context.I think those so called expert are marching to a different drum beat. Assumptions based on limited knoweldge of the Armenian language will lead to ridiculous conclusions as calling a dome drum shaped. BTW, BTC I did say that it is thought to have been from the Assyrian. In any case, whether the Turks learned it from us, the Persians or other, it definitely is not a Turkic word, they lesarned both the word and the art in the ME, they did not bring it from Transcaspia.

quote:Originally posted by MosJan:SAS jan axorjak es batsuum Mi shihs el Qarahuni Orri im Kormits de vor petpesa Arpa jan indz nuinpes hetaqrqir e patasxan@ SAS barekamnerits@s mej@ vor misht portsuma HAyeren xosel Basturmayin anvanum er Chamanov Apuxt 0 yani chaman@ HAyerena / yete chamani Hayeren anun@ gtnenq klini X-Apuxt. Ghavurman - Yuri mej Tapakvats yev Kave Karasi mej pahvatsn e - Ayo sireli Movses and SAS, it is a compelling and interesting subject and I may have much to say aboutit, however, this being under the subject topic of "CULTURE" I have reserved my right to not enter that site as long as it is being hijacked by writers whose messages have very little to do with culture, if at all. One hijacker who spreads his "aromatic" efluum in that topic, I am surprised that some even bother to respond, they may be newcomers and may think something of wisdom is being said. One hijacker titles his garbage as "As I See It" What is that he sees? Yeah, yeah! You see my v...k Here is a story; Some time ago when there were public bathouses on every block a young man whose hormones were making his head spin had found an opening in the wall of one of these bathouses and was wathing a lady in her birthday suit. It was delightful even if he had a view of the woman's behind. The young man was overwhelmed, he could contain himself anymore, he tries to get the lady's attention to let her know that she was being watched he excliams; "I see you, I see you". The bathing beauty, without even turning around to see where the voice coming from answers; "Yeah, yeah you see me, you see my A..".

quote:Originally posted by HOVSEP KASHISHIAN:Some mosques look like they are counting down to go to the moon.look at the mosques in istanboul.I mean the menarets that look like misiles. Yes Hovsep, they are going to the moon, one way or another, and those missiles and missile like structures will find their appropriate appertures to fill. To quote that famous American philosopher, Jackie Gleason; "One of these Alice, one of these days. Pow!!! To the moon!"Who was it? Charents? When a Turkish poet had objected to Armenians using Mt. Ararat as a national symbol saying that the mountain was not Armenian, that it was in Turkey, Charents had retorted: "You have the moon on your national symbol(flag). You will never own the moon but one of these days we will own Ararat". BTW. "kumbet" as used by the Turks to mean dome is an Armenian word. As is the custom, when Turks borrow(steal) Armenian words they distort it to comply with their enunciations. They took the word "orinak" (model, example) and use it to sound "oernek", "oe" as in the French "oef". They took the word "gmbet" and pronounce it as "kumbet", "u" as in the French "sur". Gmbet is an Armenian word that is also found in the Persian (phlv. kumbath), Arabic and other ME languages. Its origin is a little obscure but it is believed to be from the Assyrian "qubbetha". There are variations of the word, one of which may be familiar to those who know the neighborhood of Aleppo where some villages are totally made up of little domelike mud huts which are popularly known as "qubbe"s. Arnenians use the word in several variations (provincial colloquials), i.e goumbeth, gumbeth, gmbeth, kmpet, kmbeth etc.

quote:Originally posted by Alla:"TURKEY REALLY WAS GOING TO ATTACK ARMENIA IN AUTUMNN 1993", FORMER HEAD OF STATE DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL SECURITY, MAYOR GENERAL EDUARD SIMONIANTS SAYS YEREVAN, September 23 (Noyan Tapan). The other day, in the Armenian press, with an allusion to Greek Ambassador to Armenia, Leonidas Chrisantopulos, who occupied the position in 1993-4, a sensational message appeared: Turkey intended to attack Armenia in October 1993. Alluding to the reconnaissance data he had received from the French Ambassador to Armenia and verified by US Ambassador to Armenia Harry Gilmore, the Greek diplomat......... Susanna Petrosya the territory of Armenia and Artsax. It is today unreal. It surprises me that the above item has no generated and discussion.How credible is it? My repeated questions of why Turkey is still blockading Armenia that remains unanswered to this day may have been partially answered. It is common knowledge that blockade is an act of war. The above proves that. Turkey not having found acceptable grounds to attack Yerevan may have been using the blockade, cold war if you will, as a substitute for hot war. One almost wishes that they had in fact attacked Yerevan.

Tsk, tsk MJ. Shame on you Didn't we swear on our scouts' honor to not compare and pit one version over the other? I do concede that there can be no discussion of this subject without lapsing into arguments as to how the western Armenians bastardaized our orthography and pronunciation, and how the Soviets corrupted it. The purpose of this debate should be to find a common ground, and there is much more that we agree than we disagree. We should take one item at a time and concentrate on it. 1. Orthography 2. Pronunciation 3. TRANSLITERATION I again typed the latter in the upper case as I had done in my first post. The reason for that maybe twofold. It may be the easiest to tackle and more importantly it is the immediate cause of our discontent. When some of our correspondents expressed the fact that they could not read Armenian with Latin characters they may have had a point. Even though in theory there may be several official methods of transliteration in practice it seems like we have 8 million opinions about it. Some of us would spell "grape" as "khaghogh", others as "xaghogh" then there are those whose name shall remain secret will spell it as "xaror". With Boghos' indulgence we will use him as "laboratory animal". BTW, Boghos, I'm sure that you know Boghos, Poghos, Paulos, Paulus. Pavghos, Pavghik means small. No one knows this except the Marashtsis and the Zeituntzis. In their provincial "bolos/boloz" means child. See? I lapsed. I should have spelled it as "polos/poloz". Do you also see that many Greek patrynimic surnames end in "poulos" or some variety thereof such as Spiropoulos? It means son of or "little" Spiro. Coming back to Boghos. An Eastern Armenian would have transliterated it as Poghos since it is from the Mesropian "PE" (as in cha pe je). It makes sense since it is from the original Greek Paulos. This is where we lose it, this is where it hits the fan. Western Armenians had lost all the nuances of the Mesropian sounds, even if they had transliterated Poghos correctly they pronounce it as if written with the letter "ben" as in Ayb BEN Gim, hence the western version of Boghos. (We will talk about the "gh" v "L" too). An opposite of this happened again due to the western Armenian corruption of the sounds. I have written about this some time back. Whereas "baron" is a relatively recent entry to our language it went through the same evolution as Poghos only this time in reverse. When first borrowed it was written as "baron" but since the second latter of the Arm. Alphabet had already been corrupted to sound as "P" and in reverse the "pe" as in "ben" it was written as pe-ayb-re-o-n and pronounced like ben-ayb-re-o-n and this, in reverse transliteration sometimes ends up as "paron". Another example would be "barev barekam". Westerners will transliterate this (phonetically, i.e as they hear it with their corrupted ears) as "parev paregam". This much for now. Remeber! We are not comparing one aginst the other as to which is better etc. And also remember that this first installment is about TRANSLITERATION and not orthography or pronunciation, in a way it may be the latter as most amateur transliteration is based on the sound as one hears it. Inclosing let me say that I may be considered as a "born-again" as I also, at one time wished that we drop all consonants that sounded the same. But there is a reason for this madness. Mesrop designed all thos letters for a reason, they are to be pronounce as intended. Western Armenians pronounce all the consonants with equal intensity while easterners although not perfect do distinguish between say gim, ken and qe, ts as in tsoren, dz as in dzouk and ts as in tsaghik.

quote:Originally posted by MJ:I think the UCLA professionals don't have much to do with the overall evolution of Diaspora. They will exist probably way after the extinction of Diaspora - if there will be sources of financing for their endeavors. If the history of Armenian Diaspora is indicative for its future at all, I think this, itself, implies that the Diaspora is there to expire. Very true!Institutions and the community are two separate entitities. An institution may be on a remote island with nary a speaker nearby. Take the Mekhitarians e.g. They have not only lasted over 300 years but they have also singlehandedly preserved and enriched the language when either Esatern or Western Armenia were on the verge of totally losing it, and all this happened when there was no Italian Armenian community (diaspora) so to speak. An institution like the UCLA and others can be likened to an English language institution in India or Zambia. We know well that the mother institution for the English Language is in London and in our case in Erevan. By the same token we will not knock UCLA and otehrs down just as we will be eternally indebted and grateful to St. Lazar Island.those institutions will survive long after the respective communities have vanished or totally forgotten their native tongue. They would still have a valuable mission of catering to non-Armenians and linguists of shapes and colors. They will also act surrogates lobbyists and educators (read propagandists).

First off, we must all swear on our scouts' honor to stay within the parameters of the discussion. This may be one of the most explosive subjects. I have witnessed many debates about the subject and I have also seen many friends become unfriendly. The reason for this is usually from a lack of understanding of the subject and the spirit of the debate. It invariably turns into a contest and a oneupmanship. Insults are exchanged, one calling the other Turkish-Armenian and the other calling them Russian-Armenian, this kind of Armenian or that. Terms like Turkish-Armenian whether applied to a language or a person may be the oxymoron of ages, even more so than a term like Judeo-Christian. Which is it, Turkish or Armenian, Judaic or Christian? quote:This note is perhaps an invitation for Arpa to give his input on the subject.Don't feel guilty MJ. I had already observed that the subject had reached a point of no return, as mentioned above, fists were already being clenched ready to throw the punches. I was contempleating to intervene. quote:I am far not a linguist but , yet, have a strongly held opinion on it (surprise-surprise).Neither am I.However, as always, this debate is started and led into an impasse by people, for no fault of theirs', who have a limited command of the language (I said "language", singular). It is a known fact that those who have a relatively good command of the Armenian have very little trouble to read and speak either "dialect" (more about this word). quote:There is no such language as “Russian-Armenian.” Neither there is “Turkish-Armenian” language. There have never existed such languages.

Yes, Kaan, welcome. BTW. Are you Jewish or a donme? You don't have to answer that. You use the word "obssession" in describing the Armenians' preoccupation with the Jews. At the present. I say that, you will see why. I have also used words like "obssession" when talking about the Armenians' preoccupation with the Jews and Judaism. You may look up some of my posts addressing that. You will also see some posts by some of our correspondents who wish they were Jews. You will find very little neutral and sober views when it comes to Armenians and Jews. Whatever the tone or the spirit I wish it would stop and I wish that we would speak about ourselves and look within us. In any case, I wish we talk about the Jews no more than they talk about us. Did you say, zero times, never?Could we limit our reference to Jews ato as many times as we refer to the Aleuts of Alaska and aborigines of Australia, since our kinship is is no closer than that. Armenians are very poor players, they fail at the game of diplomacy and politics, they fail at propaganda and publicity. They have never been good at any of those games, ever. They have failed miserably and in so doing they have lost everything, and they are in grave danger of losing what is left of them and their property. One game Armenians are good at, and have been for their entire existence is the game of "passing the buck", the game of "pin the tail on the donkey". We have to be good at it. We have been playing it for many millennia. It is still a mystery to me how we have survived all thee centuries. Let's begin in the beginning. When we were invaded and devastated by the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Parthians, the Persians, the Romans, the Greek, etc. it was never our fault. It was them, they were the savage ones, they were the bloodthirsty invaders. When the Arabs devastated our lands, again it was their fault. The Byzantians betrayed us. Shame on them!? The Russians neglected us and sold us down the line. Shame on them too?! Our perceived allies the Chrsitian Europeans abandonned us. Double shame on them!!?? Then of course there is the Turk. Triple shame on them??!! As you can see it was "THEM", it was all THEIR fault!!! We had nothing to do with it. We were the innnocent victims??!! It is like blaming the horse thief for entering our unlocked barn and stealing our entire property. Why was our barn not locked? Why is it not locked now? Who is to blame for that? Did the locksmith refuse to sell us locks? Who is the locksmith? As to the Jew. Many Armenians firmly and honestly believe that we are cut from the same cloth. That we have identical legacy and similar destiny. Some Armenians genuinely believe that we are the 13th tribe. Many Armenians fantasize of being members of the "chosen people", and as such feel betrayed. I have no idea where all these fantasies come from. I have yet to see in writing or hear in words where and when it was said so. When did the Jews profess to be our kin and cousins? When did the Armenians have extensive contact with the Jews, aside from an occasional encounter on the mercantile highways. Where and why do Armenians have that delusion? Could it be that Armenians have never forgiven themselves for being the first dupes to adopt that new and untested philosophy called Christianity? Could it be that they feel cheated for falling for it "lox, stock and bagel"? Could it be that they feel that the Jews owe them something for our misery ever since we did adopt and replace our entire ethnos with an alien one? Could it be that they feel cheated by Yahve who never promisd us anything in the first place? If we feel that he owes us anything then it is our fault. Is it beacuse that alien god neglected us during our most trying times? I'd like to see where and by whom that was promised? Yet it was the god of the Jews who did not even move a finger to save us?!! I have no idea where all this comes from. I don't know who promised us all that. I have never seen, any place any time where it was said that the Jew owes us anything. I have never seen or heard that the Jew has promised us to be our advocate. Oh. I forget. You see? Since we are identical in legacy and destiny, since we are the first Genocide victims of the 20th c. and the Jews the first Holocaust victims, then it must be a natural, that we are bosom buddies, that they owe us a debt of brotherhood. Love unrequited? Whose fault is it? Did they ever promise us eternal love? Armenians may have been the smartest people on this Earth, they may be the most literate(fact, over 90% literacy) yet they cannot read or write if their lives depended on it. Let me ask again. Where do they read such fantasies? In that book of of ethnocentric and xenophobic lies and drivel? I may not be the best biblical scholar, perhaps somebody may help us find where it was written that the Jews loved, no, liked any of their neighbors. Where it is written that they came to the aid of any of their neighbors. Where it is written that they cared about anybody else. They have been at war with all their naighbors since time immemorial and still are. Did they love the Asssyrians or the Babylonians, or was the Philistines or Elamites (Arabs)? Could it have been the Romans or Egyptians? Maybe they loved the Samaritans and Canaanites! Or was it Phoenicians or the Arameans. One must be blind to not see what I have observed for a long time. I cannot understand why Armenians are surprised that the Jews and the Turks are professing to be long lost cousins and friends. Why did the Armenian wait so long to realize the natural affinity and the parellel destiny of the Turk and the Israeli. Pick up a map, any map and tell us which neighbor does the Turk love. Which neigbor does the Israeli love? Which neighbor have either of them loved any time? In coclusion. We have never had any extensive contact with the Jew, we have never been next door neighbors. We have never had war or peace with them. We owe them nothing, they owe us even less. Therefor. Can we please not talk about the Jew anymore and instead look within us to see where and how we went wrong.Stop pinning the tail on the donkey and for a change kick ourselves in the ass for all our failures and promise not to repeat them, most of all stop relying on Jew and gentile for our salvation and start doing something about it. Eeverybody, every nation have their own problem, let us take care of our own instead of passing the blame. This will be my last reference to the Jew. We have business to attend to, we cannot play stupid and fruitless games .

quote:Originally posted by MJ: quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: your position is clear to me, and my position is clear to you. i shall post no more on this unless & until i see something radically different than already posted. Ali, I'll give myself the liberty of violating your request not to respond to you. Your position is not clear to me. Moreover, I think your position is not clear even to yourself, and it will remain so until you acquire courage to face the issues. And unless you do so, you are no different in my eyes from the Young Turks nor from your current government, the actions of which were correctly characterized by Arpa as cowardice. In such case, I see no incentive to engage with you on the subject, since you are bringing literally nothing but double-talk to this table. It is a waste of time. Now, the business week has started, and I cannot afford giving focus to this forum. I have, at numerous occasions, expressed my reluctance to indulge in Genocide debates. I have also indicated that what some may call debate/dialogue is nothing but a collection of monologues. It is childish, it is @si-@sav, "I said, he said".As MJ has indicated there really is nothing more to say until the sides decide to face the real issues and stop hiding behind the past. Speaking of which, Ali you still owe me the courtesy of at least addressing my question, I don't expect an answer, but an acknowledgment that you have read my numerous questions as to why Turkey is blockading Yerevan. Is it because, as you rpeat ad nauseam, "Armenia is siding with Russia again"? Why then the arch enemies of Russia, the majority of the West are not blockading Yerevan? Or is Turkey doing openly what those are others are ashamed to do and wish they could do it covertly? Iran, a people that is even more closely related to the Azeris, Shiite Moslem, a country that has had more common with Azerbaijan than Turkey will ever be, does not blockade Armenia. What is Turkey's problem if not HATE, PHOBIA AND FEAR?I will not comment on this subject until I get at least a half hearted nod that there is a genuine desire for dialogue and I hear why is it that Turkey hates Armenia so much as to be willing to strangle her with blockades and diplomatic denial. Has the genidal Turm really repented and changes!! Is not the blockade an act of war, another "genocide", savagery?!! And you expect us to sit down and sit as one civilized person to another!!?? Yes, some Armenians have made a cottage industry of the Genocide but now, see who is making a huge industry of it? Finding undotted "i"s and uncrossed "t"s every step of the way. How petty can one get!!! PS. You still owe us the decency to address the issue of the blockade. Mind you we are not talking about a thousand year old event, neither are we talking of hundred year old or ten year old event. We are talking about the present, and maybe the future.

quote:Originally posted by MJ:Ali, I have to confess that I, personally, am tired and have some kind of reaction of vamiting reading the same story over and over as if from a broken recorder. Maybe someone else would have desire to respond to you. Just one comment: Turkey has a very simple way to put end to the Armenian Genocide "industry." At the risk of sounding like yet another "broken record"....Yes MJ, it is "ad nauseam". Pskhuk in Armenian, and to you Ali, it is "gusguntu". Her is my "broken record". And I expect an answer this time as it is not rhetorical, it is a straight question; Why is Ankara blockading Yerevan? What has Armenia done to Turkey to justify it? Why do Turks hate Armenians so? Aremnia and Armenians have waved the peace flag so many times and so explicitly, they have suggested so many points of compromise, yet Ankara has not shown even an iota of good will, hiding behind innumerable obstacles, the latest of which the Artsakh saga.Is Karabgh a suburb of Ankara? What will their next excuse be once that obstacle is resolved? It is not a secret that LTP and RK have met Aliev on numerous occasions, even if they may have agreed to disagree. When will Mehmet Osmanuglu meet Haik Armenian to talk about differences and converging points? COWARDS!! COWARDS!! WHAT IS THE TURK AFRAIDOF? Could it be those skeletons(literally) in their closets? To repeat; Gogh sirt@ togh!!?? Who is the "gogh/thief"!!?? Whose heart trembles at the scary prospect of acknowledging that; "yes Mehmet there is an ARMENIA!!?? Who will concede that after one thousand years of failed attempt of trying to wipe Armenia off the map has failed and that they have come back, they never went away, to haunt the heirs of the Ottomans, who despite their desperate attempt to dispel the legacy do in fact affirm the blame by not passing the buck to their predecessors, unlike the Germans who passed the buck to a disgusting Nazi regime. Where would the Holocaust quest be had Hitler succeeded and passed the baton to Bonn as the Sultans of Istanbul passed to it to Ankara!! Armenian hatred of the Turk pales compared to the Turkish hatred of the Armenian. Why are Turks such a hateful bunch!!?? Does it have to do with reading that compendium of hatred known as the Qoran? I don't read that other xenophobic and ethnocentric compendium of hatred known as the Old Testament. I only read the handbook of love, aka New Testament. Run a search of the Bible using key words "love" and "war" and you will understand what I mean. Some people have asked about our obssession with the Jew. I may refer to it sometimet, maybe not. I may when I find even one mention of "love thy neighbor". Which neighbor? Would it be the Babylonian or the Assyrian? the Egyptian or the Elamite? The Amorite or the Aramean? The Palestinian or the Syrian? Could it be the Jordanian or the Saudi? Definitely not the Armenian. We may get back to that subject only if I deemed that the Jew is worth even a moment of my very busy schedule. As far as I am concerned, they have had their "glory" conning the world that they are the "chosen people". Sorry to say that there may be still be those who are deathly afraid to offend Jehovah lest he smite their seven generations. GET A LIFE !!!! quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:hello, i) turks show reluctance to accept that their treatment of the armenians, especially in the last quarter of the 19th century (i.e. before 1890s and the ag in 1915) was nothing they could be proud of, and they base their arguments of armenians rebelling upon russian instigation largely on that: if they were so wonderfully treated, it could only be some external factor that made them rebel, as there were no internal reasons, nothing they could complain about, that could cause discontent and rebellion. Yeah!! Yeah!! yeah!!Armenians allied themselves with the Russians. So, what else is new!! Read Armenian history, particularly that of Artsakh. See for youself how many times Armenians aliied themselsve with the Russians. Read about the Treaty of Turkmenchai. What else would you have Armenians do? Ally with the Persians (Moslem)? The Iraqi's (Moslem)? The Syrians (Moslem)? Or, maybe the Saudis (Moslem)? Read about the Arab conguest of Armenia. Can you say something new? We have heard that so many times that it sounds laughable. Is this the best Turkey can come up with? What a biuch of idiots!! "We did what we had planned for a long time but had no excuse"? "Ha! the Armenians sided with the Russians. The perfect axcuse to eradicate them?" Why was not OE and Turkey not eradicated for siding with Kaiser Wilhelm(WWI) and that most disgusting misanthrope known as Hitler(WWII)? It takes one to know one?? quote:i would also be wary of something else: libaridian apparently has stated in a conference where a turkish scholar (halil berktay) was also present, that there are armenians who "love the problem". a turkish (turkish jew) businessman discussing the issue with an armenian scholar in paris reported that the scholar said at the end "-but please understand, sir, this is my bread!". ag appears to have turned into an industry, especially among the diaspora, and turkish recognition will no doubt weaken that industry as the "struggle factor" would have been largely eliminated. this might result in cut funds for ag research and other troubles for the members of the sector, and they would paradoxically but understandably might push for ag recognition on the one hand and do their bit to delay it on the other to keep the sector going. this has been a bit disjointed, bt i hope it helps. after all, we all want to see this denial business come to an end. cheers, I have asked this same question long before there was a HyForum.Yes, some Armenians do make an industry of the AG. Or should I say "did"? That was before there was an Armenian nation and an Armenia. It was their only hope as there was no sovereign state to champion their cause. Now that there is an Armenia and a nation the cowardly Turk is hiding under Aliev's smelly skirt or any other smelly skirt, to avoid talking to Yerevan. Could it be that at a prevelance of overwhelming evidence Ankara has no leg to stand on? Speaking of "lame excuses". Topalian is a common Armenian(? )surname, but it is clear as the crescent and the star who the real "topal" is.? SOBs!! Ganjiklarin evlatlari. You keep it up, antagonize(blockade) all of your neighbors. You will die a "ganjik's" death!!! Unless and until Turkey is serious about serious talks and stop hiding behind trumped up charges and excuses we can wait another thousand years. We have survived 5000 years, we will survive long after Turk and Turkey have become a vague memory in ancient history books.

This is not intended to rain on anyone's parade. During one of my extensive travels I sat down at the table at a local restaurant. The young lady asked me if I liked a drink while my food was being prepared and handed me a list. As it is my motto to "when in Rome do as the Romans do" I asked her if there was a local drink. BTW. When in Yerevan I did the same and the bar tender advised me against it and recommeneded a European brew as according to him the local ones were "vat". He was right. The local beer, I forget what it was, it definitely was not Kotayk at the time, tasted like dishwater. The waitress pointed to an item on the list and I, willing to taste the local asked her to describe it. She said that it was "apricot flavored". Apricot flavored!!?? Did they have the right to infringe on an Armenian trademark? Did they know that the apricot, Prunus Armeniaca is the national fruit of Armenia?? Did they have a license to produce it. No. The brew was neither Kotayk, nor it was Kilikia, it was not even brewed at the Abovian plant. It was made right here, in the good old US of A. It is called the Finger Lakes Apricot Wheat. Check it out. http://www.ithacabeer.com/brew2001.html And please be courteous when advising them that they may have neglected to pay tribute to the holders of the trademark on APRICOT. They may be urged to expand the legend in the discription. Besides, Armenia and Armenians may yet have the trademark on wheat as well. We have the dubious distinction of being the first people to have invented the garejur, or in the least Xenophon is credited with the earliest mention of the art during his travels through Armenia. We also hold the patent on wine as the earliest mention places it at the foot of Mt. Ararat. What a bunch of "alkies"!!!

Boghos took the words right out of my mouth. It is clearly obvious as who hates whom. Many Armenians have come out and professed their lack of HATE towards the Turk, in particular towards the Turk of today. Armenians have realized that hate will not accomplish anything. Several years ago when I addressed a gathering during the Genocide commemroration my main topic was "hate" in which I said something like; Hate will not harm the subject, it will only harm the practitioner. It will stunt growth and eat the hater from inside out. I have never hated anybody, neither have I have hated the Turk. I may despise them, I may never forget, and as stated numerous times; Don't give them the chance, don't get caught unprepared, don't dare them, they will be glad to oblige time after after time. It seems I have been right. As the Turks has not, will never get over its hatred of the Armenian. Originally posted by Boghos quote:My grandfather never hated Turks, nor obviously taught us to hate them. Now I understand why. Out of compassion. quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:[QB]dear arpa, i must confess i didn't quite understand what your point was, so i am afraid i cannot furnish a reply (if there's anyone out there who understood, could you please explain?) ============ cheers, There is very little to not understand what I said. Regime after regime Turks have found a new twist to not acknowledge and own up to responsibility. The ensuing regimes will find yet another excuse. When everything fails they will seek the aid of those greatest falsifiers of history to assist them. They will solicit testimonials from a people who claim to have written the Testaments, they will solicit such lies as how they and those people have been "lovers" for centuries when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. As I stated before, if Turks and those other people were such lovers then why it took centuries for them to get the permission to migrate back to the "promised land" when for centuries Turks had full control and hegemony over the region yet they would not let even one of them to repatriate. They invented the lies, and the Turks seem to be good students of the art.What I said was: What have we done to the Turk that they hate us so, no, fear us so that they would resort to such cowardly acts as to blockade and boycotte Yerevan? How many Turks got a bloody nose during the Karabagh debacle. If you say they did then it will be taken as evidence of their covert and overt participation. Turks, by association were so humiliated at the end of the Artsakh saga that they were at a loss as to how save face. They were running around like a "turkey" with its head cut. They were at a loss as to how punish Yerevan, and by extension the entire Armenian nation. They could not even dream of that golden opportunity. And voila! Armenians, who by the way are not the same Armenians that your ancestors may remember humiliated your "cousins" so that your embarassment could not be hidden. Let me ask again. What have we done to Turkey and the Turk that, being the uncivilized savages that they are they have decided to not acknowledge Yerevan, not establish diplomatic ties. You may be big but you are far from being great. They are still hoping for other excuses not to. Towards the end of the Artsakh war Turks were so embarassed by the inepteness of their "cousins" that a high ranking official, it could have been the FM or the PM, publicly lamented the cowardice and clumsiness of the Azeris, tried to shame them into action stating that they were not worthy of their Turkic heritage. Yet Turkey did not even bat an eye to grab the occasion to something they had been itching to do in the first place, punish and blocakade Yerevan. One can only wonder what excuse they would have trumped up were it not the embarassing defeat of their so called cousins. Of course, there is always the issue of the Genocide as a precondition for diplomatic ties and lifting of the blockade. Please, Ali, DO NOT LIFT THE BLOCKADE. We do not want our compatriots to find yet another route to Istanbul as they did some centuries ago. What I meant, and there is nothing ambiguous about it, is that all we have heard is excuses and excuses. Eevery regime has found one or another. They may have been running out of excuses, their only hope may have been that Yerevan would melt away, it would become a suburb of Moscow and Armenians would become some kind of dark skinned Russians. It did not happen. Armenia and Armenians are not going anywhere soon. Get with it. Behave like civilized people. Stop lying. Be a nighbor as neighbors should be. Stop hiding in Aliev's stinking pants. Stop using him and his ilk to do what you have intended all along in the first place. Originally posted by aurguplu: [QUOT][QB}the major problem is the lands. turks will not accept any claims for obvious reasons plus the fact that before the genocide there was no independent armenia. the turkish conquests of the 11th-13th centuries were like any oter conquests and you cannot realistically extend the genocide issue that far back. if you did, and succeded,[/QB Did I or did not I ask you to say something new? We have, not I, because as I have stated time and again that I will not discuss Genocide, to me there is no question. I will not argue whether there was one or not. Let the evidence speak for itself. I will not debate whether 299,999 mudered souls constitute a Genocide or whether the number should be 1,500,001 to qualify. The fact is that a mighty state murdered its unarmed and helpless "citizens" is murder so foul.Did I or did not I ask you to say something new? And now you quote Kamuran who so gloats in his "greatest discovy" that "there was no such thing as an Armenian state". How does that exonerate the fact that, whether Armenia was a state or not, Armenians were MURDERED, their property confiscated. Armenia may not have been a state then, neither was the Ottoman Empire, it was just an amorphous designation. Neither is Turkey of today, it is nothing but a scaled down, tattered and declining remnant of an empire that has not yet seen its final fall and demise. Speaking of blockade. What cowards! How shamelss! Threatening the US with sanctions and blockades. Go ahead. Try it. I would love to see Turkey sanction and blocake the US, may be then our hard earned tax money will stop going down the sewers of Istanbul and Ankara. Please Ali, stop looking for excuses and be the first of your kind to own up and confess. It will only benefit you and your kind because until and unless you start behaving like a civilized member of the world community you will always remain the savage that many dictionaries define the Turk and Turkey. Coming back to Boghos' statement. Why are you (lural)so hateful and fearful of the Armenian? The old Armenian adage "gogh sirt@ togh"* must have been coined to apply to the Turk. *(Trans. The burglar's heart trembles with fear). In other words; Guilty as charged.

Sorry! My system is playing games on me again. Dear Ali, Are you sure your grandmother's name is not Armenuhi Armenian? I don't don't really read all your points. First there was Abdul Hamid/Ottoman, then Kemal/Domne/Turk, Inonu/European, Menderes/Greek?, Ciller (the blond/freckled/Bosnian?)... Did I leave out any? And now, Ali and his ilk of bleeding heart Turk. Please tell us something new! Like, when and if Ankara will acknowledge Yerevan as an equal parner, establish diplomatic ties and, the coward that they are, stop hiding behind Baku. Ankara, as astute as they are, was caught off guard when Yerevan became independant. They were not alone, Yerevan was caught off guard too. Come off it and confess. As far as Ankara was concerned the Armenian question was finally and definitively resolved when, 800 years of failed attempt of subjugation had been left to the all encompassing new "world order of internationalism". Even the author's ilk did not believe and practice it, just as they never subscribed to the "new world order preached by Yeshua'". Ankara was caught off guard! And she does not know how to deal with (Armenian) reality. We are still here and don't intend to go away soon. Thank your Crsecent and Star that there came along an Aliev to hide under whose smelly pants, an excuse that even Enver and Talaat could never dream. What does the war in Artsakh have to do with Ankara? Have we attacked Igdir, Aghuri, Ani or Kars? Watch out! That goose beak of a land link with Nakhijevan can be blocked with one tank and blown away with a specteular Chinese fireworks. You may claim cousinship, with Heidar. Really? When did pesople speaking the same dailect become kssing cousins? Is Saddam a cousin of Sabah? Even the Irish have not been so lucky to find excuses like the AG, land and property reparations to hide behind. A struggle of self determination and reappropriation of lost lands proves that we are not dead. Disapppointed? Remember the "In Kind"?? I have called Armenians "cowards", but the word pales when compared with the cowardice of the Turk! Go ahead. Deny the Genocide, shirk the resposnibility of reparation of life and property. Play with words. Laugh at us. Wait for a new regime in Ankara? Toy with us. You may laugh like a hyena or howl like a (Grey) wolf.... When the Ottoman Empire finally hits the dust.... She will! You will see! THE LAST LAUGH WILL BE OURS!!!.

Dear Ali,