Arpa

quote:Originally posted by Boghos: quote:Originally posted by nairi:What do you mean? Like mitk, mtatsel, mtavor? Or do you mean something else? Or do you mean "meda vor a ka(n)"? I don't know if this will be tolerated on HF though. Nairi I had thought of a few things: semantics and ethymology. But I think you have made an interestig contribution, nevertheless.Quite!(A surprise and a quiz at the end). Mtavorakan. Mindful, wise, intellectual, a thinking person. A native Armenian word, "mit" from the root of proto-IE "med". It is seldom used in the singular form but it pervades into many uses. More commonly seen as "mitq" (plural of "mit"). The original meaning is equally used to mean thought, as well as "hog" as in "hogal" or "hog tanel" to mind a matter or person, i.e to be mindful, and "khnamq" (care). By now it would be evident that we are not alone to use the root word of "med". It can be traced all thr way to the English "mind" but it is more readily recognized in words like "med"itate, "med"itation etc. When we use the term "mtavorakan" we are in fact using part of the phrase. "mtavor" would probably be enough to mean "intellectual". Mtavorakan is part of the phrase like "mtavorakan gortzuneyutyun", i.e. "inetellectual activity". But then again, even in the English just like in the Armenian "intellectual" which is in fact an adjective has ended up being used as a noun. Here is the surprise. The word medicine as in the art of healing is based on the same root, as in the past a "medicus" meant a wise and thoughtful person hence a physician. Now the quiz. What word do the Lebanese use to describe a doctor of medicine, a physician? And what does it really mean? A bonus. The word doctor is from the Latin "docere" that means "to teach".

quote:Originally posted by hagarag:Arpa, The Genocide is the glue which holds us together as Armenians. If the Turkish establishment ever capitulates on this issue the Armenians, sadly I must say, will probably rip each other to shreds. In a way, the Turks have helped us remain a nation by focusing our anger upon them rather than upon the deep anger we feel for each other. Yeah, yeah!Glue, my "eshek"! If that is the kind of glue to hold us together then I must wish you a thousand genocides, at least one at each turn of a century. But then again, I thought the glue holding us together was our kinship to the "chosen people". You can have them too up your "eshek". With glues like that, no wonder we can't hold our house together.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:you a comparable claim can perhaps be made for turks ironic.][/qb] quote:tragically ironic, but not unique: witness the jewish case, for instance: three years after the holocaust, the first jewish state in more than 1,000 years was born.Tragically ironic or ironically tragic...Indeed. Ali's comparison with the Jewish sag may be more than meets the eye. Armenians claim to have blood kinship with the Jews, Hogwash! Yet there may be some point in that that both peoples are cut from the same cloth of idiocy. They both only remember about their "promised land" in times of crisis while otherwise each in their own way are otherwise preoccupied with chasing that pot of gold. Tragically ironic as it may it is not the first time neither it may be the last. Armenians have always gathered themselves only in times of crisis, and tragically ironic many subsist solely by the memory of the Genocide. It is a scary though but what will happen to us once Turkey repents and acknowledges, what will we base our existence upon? What will hold us together? Not gold for sure, it may be the next biggest cause of division after religion. Ironic! If Descartes had postulated his cliche after the Genocide, or if he were Armenian he may have said: "Dolorem ergo sum" (I hurt therefor I am).

Why do Armenians talk 999 times more about Turks and Turkey, 1000 times more about Jews and Israel? Is this what is known as "ostrichism"? Don't we have anything to talk about? Do we know any armeniana? Is there an armeniana? Is it too embarassing to talk about ourselves? Sure! It will probably last two minutes. As to Turkey's EU membership. Why are we so keen about it? Do we think that it will teach them to respect human rights and repent? How much good has being the US' "staunchest ally" done? How much good has being the biggest US' welfare state done? My ardent wish is, I have said this, albeit in another context, that Turks do actually join the EU, not only diplomatically and economically but phisically, i.e. continue their invasion of Vienna and this time stay there. It seems the Europeans like the Turks, there may be some pervert sexual connotation here. As is there are enough Turks in Germany and other European countries, a few more will not hurt. Ouch!!! On one condition though, that they go west of the Dardanelles with their lock, stock and barrel, take their mosques and minarets with them, the Europeans may like it, they are long, big and cylindrical in shape, they may like to stuff them up their... noses(?),not to forget their hordes, to never come back. We have enjoyed "Turkish love" for too long let the Europeans enjoy some for a change. BTW, this may give the Greeks and the Byzantians a taste of their own medicine since they devastated Armenia over and over while the latter was seiged by the hordes and could little afford to defend themselves from their so-called "coreligionistic allies". Go to Europe, got to ... Jehenem beri sen daha oete. Is hell too far or too hot? PS. Don't forget too also take with you the Kurds and the other pests, you may need their services to loot your neighbors and act as your murderous executioners, thereby some day you may blame them for the murder of 1,500,000,000 Europeans. Furhter, we now know that the earth is speherical, if you keep moving far enough west you may end up in your ancestral lands in the east. Go to Europe, go to hell! Good riddance!!

quote:Originally posted by Boghos: quote:Originally posted by Twilight Bark:The lack of awareness about the brother has probably been due to the Church's reluctance to advertise that "Virgin" Mary did not stay virgin forever, even if Immaculate Conception is accepted literally at face value. As I think was mentioned here a few times, this is an issue that was very much in discussion at the beginnings of Christianity. The smartest populists prevailed as myths are often easier to sell than reality.True!As I mentioned in a previous item there are numerous passages in the scripture indicating that Jesus did in fact have brothers and sisters but these passages are dismissed as allegorical. Chrsitian "MYTHOLOGY" is heavily reminiscent of the Greek since that was the prevailing culture of the times. Mythicising was done both innocently and with an agenda. One was to deify Jesus, he never said he was "god", but more importantly, as Boghos says, it was to make it palatable to masses who were accustomed to mythology. The concept of immaculate conception, the Trinity, resurrection etc. can be found in many a mythology, all the way from Greek, Egyptian and further east. Does this mean we must lose all faith? What does immaculate conception have to do with facts as Peace is better than War, Love is better than Hate and ultimately just plain Good is better than Bad. Does one have to be agenius to see this? Or, even does one have to be told? The message has been so corrupted, and the messenger has become more important and above the message that people are confused beyond salvage. Is a pedophiliac priest in royal regalia holier than a barefoot missionary with the right message? Or must one have 1000 carat diamond ring and golden slippers to be a credible messenger? I have been shocked to learn that many a "good Christian" does not even know how many books the Bible has, let alone how many chapters, yet they will kiss the "ring", or a filthy hand for that, confess to a fornicating self appointed "god on earth" and believe to have been redeemed. If a mortal were to commit the sins of some clergy they would be excommunicated and stoned to death, yet we call them "Holy Father/Hayr Sourb", "Lord Father/Ter Hayr" etc. If we could only learn to read intelligently and use our brains as God intended for us to rather than swallow all that garbage that has no other purpose than enslave the masses and forify the grip of th hierarchy. May be mankind likes to be enslaved. Not me!!! We are ten times more educated than the most educated clergy. Should we not have a say in the matter??

quote:Originally posted by vava:I've been looking a long time for a nice hand-made wooden one like my grandfather used to have. The ones I see available today are not of good quality... If you find out where to get one, please let me know! Good luck! Go to the vernisage in Yerevan. There you will find the most beautiful nardi boards of all sizes and shapes. Ararat etched on the covers seem to be the most popular ones. The prices are pathetically, I mean pathtetically, affordable too. I bought a mini-board simply beacause I had no room left in my luggage after filling it with books. That is another emotionally tearful story.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:i am posting this on the eve of the elections which swept the AKP into power and put an end to almost all of the politicians active since the 1970s. ===== the recent statement by the german foreign minister joschka fischer (no turkey in eu) also contributed little to anyone's efforts other than that of the islamists. ====== a chinese curse runs: "may you live in interesting times". looks like some chinese cursed us. What is hilariously unfunny is that Germany, among many other so called christian western nations have parties called "CHRISTIAN Democrats" Are they the ruling party at the present? Yet when they hear about Islamic or Islamist majority in Turkey, when they hear about Iranians renaming their country Islamic Republic of Iran they cringe. Is there a limit to hypocrisy!!For that matter the term "holy war" is a totally Christian invention. It was coined during the crusades to eventually be adopted by the Holy(?)Roman Empire. (What was so holy about it? There is not an equivalent term to "holy war" in the Islamic cultures and the Arabic Language. Jihad is often loosely and erroneously translated to mean "holy war". Jihad does not mean anything like "holy war". It simply means "struggle/endeavor". Of course, the art of demonization was invented long time ago, read that book which some call the Holy Bible. It is still being propagated.. guess by who!!?? Guess who is freely translating "jihad" to mean "holy war"!!

quote:Originally posted by MosJan:Azat jan es yerevuma ahhagin azzat jamanak unes dzerqt yes vro yes em nuyn em mnum menak te trashvelu em :)mek el karrora mi hat loganam Barev MosJan, barov es ekel.How was your vacation? Menk chenk "trashvum", mi urish "trash" zhoghovurd trashvum e. Menk ATSILVUM enk. I have not found a specific referenece to "atsilvel" except that it is mentioned in conjunction with "atsel" which is supposed to mean "to bring"(forth) as in "dzu atsel" to bring forth, to lay an egg. My interpretaion of "atsilel" (to shave) may be composed of a negative suffice "a" and "tsil" vegetable growth, grass, therefor to raze/erase plant (hair) growth.

Ali wrote; tb, the only mountain name that comes to my mind that has the stress on the second syllable is süphan da?? (your sipan), and i think that is either because it has only two syllables (but then again, both agri and toros, both stressed on the first syllable, have two syllables), or because süphan is a koranic word (subhan with long a). of course, the transition from sipan to süphan probably took place during the republican period, and i would very much like to know how the locals (who are probably kurdish) call the mountain. ===== Very few languages have as many sounds as the Armenian. Among others the sounds of ds/dz as in "adze" and ts/tz as in "pits" etc. Some Turkish speaking Armenians cannot produce the sounds. They would pronounce "tasghik"(flower) as "zaghik" and would say "sav@d tanem"("let me bear your pain") instead of "tsav@d tanem". Which came first? The Armenian dzet/tset(olive oil), dziteni/tziteni (olive tree) or the Arabic/Turkish "zeit/zeitun"? The custom seems to be reciprocal. Many words and names in the Armenian use the sound of ds-ts whose equivalents in other languages may soud as z or s. Tsopq (some may pronounce it "dzopq", should in fact be transliterated as "tsoPHq" as it is spelled with the letter "pyur" equivalent of the Greek/Latin PH (As in pharos/paros.) Tsopq is a region of historical Armenia, the second largest state of Greater Haik. It is bordered by Commagene in the west and Tarawn on the east. Its e-w extant is approximately from Melitene(Malatya) to Tigranakert (Dyarbakir). The Armenian appellation of the region may have derived from the Hittite Ishuva/Isua, Assyrian Sofan or the Uratuan Supani. The Latins know it by Sophananae and the Greeks call it Tsophani. The latter may be the closest to the Armenian "tsophq". The mountain named the same as the region is known as Suphan, Siphan and ultimately as the Armenian Sipana Ler (descriptive i.e. Mountain of Siphan) is sometimes aternately called Tsophq. (As hinted above, since most other languages pronounce it with F sound, i.e. PH, the correct anglification of it would rather be SiPHan and not Sipan. Note: Don't let Sip see this, lest he wake up and come back from his long wanderings on the "sea".

I am amazed and surprised, and even SHOCKED every time I see people amazed and surprised of new of this sort. quote:Originally posted by Sip:Wait a minute ... suppose it is real ... wouldn't it be even MORE shocking to realize Jesus had a brother named James? This is the first I have EVER heard of such a thing so either I am completely "out of it", or this story is a bit "whack" as they say!!! They say James is several times mentioned in the new testament, but I have never heard his name mentioned on the religion channel (nor any movies). James Christ, I can't believe this ... smilies/eek.gif smilies/lol.gif . Having not known about this subject is totally our fault as it has mentioned in the Bible at numerous occasions that Jesus did have a a fmily, mother, father, brothers and sisters. See below;======== Matt.13 1.[55] Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? Mark.3 1.[31] There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. 2.[32] And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. 3.[33] And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? 4.[34] And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 5.[35] For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. ====== We would never be surprised if we were to go to the source rather than listen to the mumbo jumbo that some self appointed "god on earth" would want us to believe. Jesus never denide his family, neither did he ever claim to be God's blood and flesh. Yes, he did say "My Father in heaven". Don't we say that too? For more allegories let's read Mark 3, verse 35 again. 5.[35] For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. As to immaculate conception, Jesus' divinity, and the divine trilogies (trinity) read Greek, Roman and other mythologies. Even Armenian where one would find trinities lik Aramazt, Anahit and Vahakn.

We have seen before that there may be as many opinions about transliteration of Armenian letters to other languagees. The most prominent would be Arm-Latin, Arm-Slavic, for obvious reasons. Add to that the fiasco of Eastern Arm v Western pronunciation. First who and what is/are HMB? H; Heinrich Hubschmann 1848-1908. German ethnologis, Iranologist and Armenologist, easily acknowldged as the "father of modern Armenology". Blah, blah, blah... He rejected the prevailing opinion that the Armenian language was a twig of the Iranian branch of Indo-European and classified it as sepearet and distinctly main branch. He has numerous papers about the subject examining the correlation of Grabar and the modern, analyses of place names and others. One of the first to find the connection of the Uraruan to Armenian... etc. M; Antoine Meillet, 1866-1936. French linguist, armenologist. Honed his expertise in Armenian at the Mkhitarian Ins. at Vienna. He has published many papers in the Revue des Etudes Armeniannne. B; Emile Benveniste, 1902-. French linguist and Iranologist. Student of Meillet. Born in Aleppo (Surprise, Surprise!!) Many works in the Revue des Etude Armeniennes. The system of transliteration devised and employed by the above, hence the nickname HMB is employed by serious scholars. As mentioned previously I have not found an comprehensive item (perhaps Levon Avdoyan director of African and ME studies at the LOC may be of help). The following is from Zoroatrianism in Armenia by James Russell. I will skip over the obvious such as Ayb=Alpha, Ben=Beta etc. and get to the controversial ones. It is no secret that the Armenian Alphabet has at least a dozen more symbols and sounds than the Latin et al. The fifth letter e equals the Latin e as in Esther. The 7th, another e is symbolized by e with slash above. Ken = K . Western Armenians would rather G as Garo. Tho, the 9th is symbolized by t with a small c over and above to the right. It is the equivalent of the English TH as in Thomas/Thovmas. Yes Virgina, Armenians did have the sound of TH one time. Zhe, the 10th is symbolized by Z with a trema on top. L is the same as the Latin L. I will write about L to GH again. See below. KH is written as X. Those accustomed to Slavic use this. Baeed on the Greek Khsi. Dza, as in Aydz (goat)= c Ghat as in "agri dag" is the L with a slash across the middleo of the vertical line. Dza as in "dzayn/sound" is symbolized by j Hi=y Sh =S with a trema on top. (Unlike the Turkish at the bottom. Vo=o Cha, hard ch=c with a trema on top and small c next to it. Peh (westerns translkitaret this as B as in Barkev v Parkew) J (as in jour/water=j with a trema on top. Ra, the hard R =r with a dot on topp. Tso, the hard TS=C with another smaller c above tothe right. Ve=v Tyun=t Hyun=w Pyur- P with a small c above and to the right. Ke=k wth that small c again. O= o with a slash on top. Fe=F And there is a symbol for "ev/yev/and". (I see no need for it). L to GH.For the umpteenth time, the reason the Latin L and others is transliterated to sound like GH as in khaghogh, Lazarus-Ghazaros is, during the pre Mashtots era there really was not a sound for L as we know it now. The Armenian L sounded more like the GH, the French R since it was pronounced with the back of the tongue against the palate. By Mesrop's time we had been hellenized enough to need a symbol to be able to pronounce words like "hellenakan", even if we kept transliterating Helen as Heghin(eh). And now we have two symbols, one for the new L and one for the old L, gh, if you will. The reaon why the two cannot totally divorced so musch so that HMB has found it necsssary to use the Latin L with a slash through it. How would HMB spell Movse Khorenatsi? Movses (with a dash over the e) Xorenaci (with a small c above to the right od the C)

The Turks are coming! During the American war of independence the prevailing cri de guerre was "The Bristish Are coming, the British are coming"!! Just as the Armenians thought they had found a safe haven far away from the Turk, just as America was regarded a Turkless country, things are achanging of late. Every time I run into a Turk, be they from Anatolia or Bosnia I can't help but surmise. (I have expressed this aloud as well). Why are Turks coming to America? We had no choice. Our homes and property was burned and confiscated. Our ancestors were murdered. Our mothers and sisters were raped and killed. Our born and unborn infants were made shish kebab at the sword. Our country was attempted to be cleansed of the last vestiges of an Armenian. SURPRISE!!! If the Turk intended to come to America in the first place then why were all those crimes commmitted? CAN WE MAKE A DEAL? Let all the turks come to America. I will go back to our ancetral homeland. On one condition, that every Turk, every Mehmet and Ali vacate the land so we can recreatE the Garden of Eden that Armenia is meant to be. THEY CAN HAVE AMERICA, THEY CAN SHOW THE AMERICANS WHAT MATERIAL THEY ARE MADE OF. THEY CAN EVEN HAVE MY HOUSE , I WILL MOVE TO THE HOUSE OF MY ANCESTORS.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:steve, the thing is microsoft word has the symbols under insert/symbols, but the damn things don't make it to the text over the internet (or maybe being an electronic neanderthal, i can't). cheers, As far as "electronics" I may be millennia behind you.I tried to find a site where the HMB system was explained and illustrated... alas. The LOC (Library of Congress in DC) subscribes to it. I will move this topic and go to Transliteration in Language.

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu: quote:Originally posted by HOVSEP KASHISHIAN:Aurguplu , let me give you an aidia how to change: First , you have to get raid of your " Rulling Army Junta " But then you will tell me that the " Islamist " will take over , and we Armenians will have an " Islamist " governed turky on our western border , my question is , is that good or bad for the armenians , so we have to choose the less evil which i think will be the " Junta ", but then again that means there is no change , Aurguplu , how many Turks think like you hundreds , thousnds , milions , and how long we have to wait my father is a Survivor of the Genocide he is 94 and i am 59 do you think that Turky is going to change in my life time . hovsep (if i may call you by your first name),as for the junta and islamists: well, we are the only muslim nation that has anything remotely resembling a democracy, and we have achieved this by making life very difficult for islam in general and political islam in particular. we can get very democratic and turn into an iran. no thanks. Ali, don't be so hasty dismissing Iran. Even though those "idiots" may contend to be champions of Islam, surprise surprise!! Armenians contend to be "champions of Christendom". Equally idiotic as neither of us invented either faith. I wish Turkey would be a "theocracy as Iran". At the present they are our major, if not sole lifeline. Remember the "blockade"? Islam, with all its idiosyncratic xenophobia towards other faiths does have a streak of humanitarian compassion, if only towards its own. I have seen this in person. Wakf may be one of the most benevolent institutions of Islam. As to "democracy". What is the definition? Is it as is repeated ad infinitum, ad nauseam that a certain country in the ME, a new found bosom buddy of Ankara, is the "only democracy in the region"? No BS has smelled more foul than that, yet the uninterested world will take it to be a "gospel truth" without questioning why people not born of certain ethnic mother will never be accepted nor granted citizenship. Democracy? Who invented the word? Is the US a democracy or is it an oligarchy. I have been trying to run for president but they tell me my good looks (a lie) is not enough. They feel my backside to see how fat my wallet is. If it would take for Turkey to be a theocracy to be more benevolent towards their "enemies"...Amin!

Double r's in the title to indicate that it is spelled with "ra", the hard R. Please allow me to move this item with a new subject topic as the original (Seljuk...)has wandered and meandered coming to, among others, etymolgy of words and names. Yes, some transliterations will use the Latin L with a slash or some other diacritical mark to impart the sound of "gh". I had written about this, I may write again. This falls under the topic of "Transliteration". I began the topic but was sidetracked. I may get back to it but in the meantime the slashed L is used by serious scholars, it is known as the HMB(Hubschman-Meillet-Benvenista) system. From the opera Anush, her lamentations of her dark fate. Asoum en ourin Aghjik er indz pes, Mnoun er yarin, Ou chekav na tes. They say the willow Was a girl like me, Waiting for her yar Who did not appear. Kheghj@ doghalov Anhuys kratsav, Dardits choratsav, Oureni dartsav. Trembling poor thing Bent with no hope Gone dry ber pain Turned to a willow. Jreri vra Gloukh@ kakhadz Der doghoum e na Ou lalis kamats. Over the waters With her head bent down She trembles still And quietly weeps. Ou amboghj tarin Mi mitq e anoum, Te yar@ yarin Vonts e moranoum. Entire year over She cannot believe How can a lover Forget his loved one. === Ketaki Vra, Over the Brook By Avetik Isahakian ¶ºî²ÎÆ ìð² ²í»ïÇù Æë³Ñ³ÏÛ³Ý ¶»ï³ÏÇ íñ³ »ùáõ»É ¿ áõéÇÝ. àõ ݳÛáõÙ ¿ Éáõé ì³½áÕ çñ»ñÇÝ£- ... ºñ³½-³ß˳ñÑáõÙ ²Ù¿Ý µ³Ý Û³õ¿ï ¶³ÉÇë ¿, ·ÝáõÙ àõ óݹáõÙ ³ÝÑ»ï£ ºõ ·ÉáõËÁ ϳ˪ ܳ É³ó ¿ ÉÇÝáõÙ.- æñ»ñÁ áõñ³Ëª ¶³ÉÇë »Ý, ·ÝáõÙ... [/F] (not my translation)) Over the stream The willow is bent, It stares in silence On the running water. In this dream world All things are forever Coming and going away, Fading away, traceless. And with its head bowed The willow weeps- The laughing water keeps Coming and going away. ======= The town/village of Akori/Akouri/Agori/Agouri, and ultimately "agri"(?). Akori, Village in the region of Masyatsotn(foot of masis) in the state of Ararat, at the edge of the gorge of the Masis Major. Please take this with a grain of salt as I do, I don't believe in the legend of Noah as it is known today even if I cannot question the origin of the name just as I cannot argue that Rome was not named after Romulus of the legendary Remus and Romulus saga. According to folk legend (Khorenatsi) the town was named based on the legend that Noah planted a willow tree at a fountain. In the Armenian "willow" is known as "ourr/ourreni", and "ag/ak" means "fountain/eye" (not unlike the Turkish "goez" which also means both). Put the two together and you get "ak/eye/fountain" and "orri/ourri"= Akorri/Agorri. The earliest mention of the village is by Ghazar Parpetsi in connection with thw PersArmenian war of AD 481-84(Akoriyi Jakatamart). It is again mentioned in AD 703 during a battle between Arabs and Armenians(Vardanakerti Jakatamart). During the middle ages the town had been the hub of a large region and the seat of the bishopric of Khor Virap. In July 2,1840 during a major earthquake the town was all but totally ruined, it was buried under huge falling boulders. Before this disaster the town had a population of 2200 of which 1600 were Armenians. It was a major landing site for mountain climbers, had a cathedral built during the reign of Catholicos Anastas Akorretsi (661-667). Later on another church/convent was built (Sb. Hakob). Dubois de Montperion (a mountaineer)has written about the Armenian inscriptions believed to date during the 13-14 c. A new town was built not too far from the orignal and was named Nor Akorri. It had 50 households, church and a fortress. The village was evacuated/cleansed during the Genocide and the its aftermath, most of the survivors ended up in what is today Modern Armenia.

Ali asks if "aghtamar" is in fact the Armenianized variation of the Turkish "al-tama", i.e al=white and tamar=vein based on the transliteration of the Latin L into Armenian GH. I had aired this item before, with some additions and deletions. Ú²ÔÂ-²Ø²ð, INVINCIBLE FORTRESS AGHT-AMAR, HAGHT-AMAR, INVINCIBLE FORTRESS I typed the Armenian. The English translation, as you will see is by the author below, I found it on the internet. There may be many translations, I found this to be poetically executed yet litarally true to the original just as in spirit. A word about the spelling. Poetic license is a forgivable sin, therefor we will forgive Hovannes for spelling it to fit his purpose. Although the Island is known as Aghtamar the master bard, who is equally loved for his wit, spells it as aKH-Tamar and he leaves it to the readers'imagination. Of course, we know that the romanticised poem is just that, romanticised, just as it is highly romantic. ================ AKHTAMAR ²Ê²زð Hovannes Tumanyan 1891 Yerevan -1995 IRMA SAFRAZBEKYAN compiled the book AKHTAMAR Beside the laughing lake of Van A little hamlet lies; Each night into the waves a man Leaps under darkened skies. He cleaves the waves with mightly arm, Needing no raft or boat, And swims, disdaining risk and harm, Towards the isle remote. On the dark island burns so bright A piercing, luring ray: There's lit a beacon every night To guide him on his way. Upon the island is that fire Lit by Tamar the fair; Who waits, all burning with desire, Beneath the shelter there. The lover's heart-how doth it beat! How beat the roaring waves! But, bold and scorning to retreat, The elements he braves. And now Tamar the fair doth hear, With trembling heart aflame, The water splashing-oh, so near, And fire consumes her frame. All quiet is on the shore around, And, black,there looms a shade: The darkness utters not a sound, The swimmer finds the maid. The tide-waves ripple, lisp and splash And murmur, soft and low; They urqe each other, mingle, clash, As, ebbing out, they go. Flutter and rustle the dark waves. And with them every star Whispers how sinfully behaves The shameless maid Tamar; Their whisper shakes her throbbing her This time,as was before! The youth into the waves doth dart, The maiden prays on shore. But certain villians, full of spite, Against them did conspire, And on a hellish, mirky night Put out the guiding fire. The luckless lover lost his way, And only from afar The wind is carrying in his sway The moans of:"Ah, Tamar!" And through the night his voice is heard Upon the craggy shores, And, though it's muffled and blurred By the waves' rapid roars, The words fly forward-faint they are- "Ah, Tamar!" And in the morn the splashing tide The hapless yough cast out, Who,battling with the waters, died In an unequal bout; Cold lips are clenched, two words they bare "Ah, Tamar!" And ever since, both near and far, They call the island Akhtamar Translated by V. Rogov ============= The following is by me; The origin of the name "Aghtamar" has been the subject of many debates. It may be opportune to mention here that Aghtamar is the Island and not the cathedral upon it. There are several structures on the Island, the most famous of them being the church of Holy Cross, Sourb Khach. The Island of Aghtamar is one of the several islands, albeit the largest and the best known. It is part of a quartet of Islands, the others being Lim, Ktoutz and Arter. First the ridiculous. The Turks call the Island "Ak Damar"(during the Ataturk linguistic purges all sounds that were deemed to primitive and savage were removed from the Turkish language, therefor the sound of "KH" as in "khach" was replaced with either plain K or H, khach became "hach" and "khyar" became "hyar"), to make it soubd like "white vein/artery". Even more ridiculous is the notion that Mt. Masis, Ararat, is the "mountain of pain" as it is known as Agri Dagh in the Turkish. The latter is nothing but a turkification and corruption of the alternate Armenian name Aghori/Aghori Ler. This is corroborated by the still discernible ruins of the Village of Aghori at the foot of the Mountain. Some time ago I had advanced the theory that "Aghtamar" may have been a variation of the original name of the temple (church) "aghot-a-mayr", the "mother of prayer" and that the island was known by the main structure. I admit that the preceeding takes quite a stretch of imagination. Yet, if the Turks would call our sacred mountain the "Mountain of Pain" and get away with....! Why can't we? However, on further reading, I may have stumbled on a better theory. While searching the Aremnian etymological dictionary, trying to find the connection of "aght", it all became clear. "aght" is a variation of the word "haght". We commonly use the word as in "haghtel", to win, to vanquish. The root word, "aght/haght" is of original Armenian, via Urartian to mean "big", "high", "brave", "powerful". We know that the Latin "L" transliterates to "gh" in the Armenian, therefor consider the Latin word "alt/altus", as in "altitude" or "exalted". Chancellor Adenaur would have been happy to know that his nickname would be Ter Haghte in Armenian (Der Alte). As to the second part of name "amar". The word has connection to the modern Arabic/Persian, probably original Aramaic. It means "to build", "building". Even the Turks use it. They call Sinan the Architect Mi'mar Sinan to mean "builder". One variation of the word in Armenian makes even more sense, "amrotz" in Armenian means "fortress/fortification". Another common word that we often use is "amour" to mean "firm", "strong", the connection here is hard to miss. Not to forget that "aght/haght" also implies "invincible" (although in common usage we sometimes use it in its redundant form- "an-haght". Put the two together- "aght-amar" and you get "invincible-structure/building". It is attested that Aghtamar has been a fortress island going back to antiquity therefor we will dwell on the fact that the appellation is none other than "[h]aght-amar" i.e. "invincible fort[ress]".

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:arpa, 3. "yogh" is armenian for oil? my god, what about our "yağ" (it does come from central asia, this one: i'll check it tonight). i suggest you check the etymology (may be it was originally with l, like aghtamar originally being altamar (my keyboard doesn't have the slashed l or the dotted l but i hope you know what i mean)). cheers, =======Yes, "yogh" is Armenian. I will write about Aghtamar separately since we have to talk about the L and the GH connection. I have written about the L connection and I remember one of our correspondents express amazement and skeptism, (was it Azat?) who when learned that the L as we know now is a relatively new sound in our Alphabet, that some time ago we did not have the L sound as we know now, that our L was kind of a guttural L more like the gh. They had asked that if that was so then we would have pronounced Lucine/Lousin as ghusin. True. However during those times we did not use "lusin" as a proper feminine name, nor did we call the moon "lusin", we called it "mah" just like the Persians still do and we called anything less than a full moon "mahiK" (little moon). We still do. The symbol on the Turkish flag is "mahik yev astgh/ay(ayca) yildiz" (crescent and star). Yogh is Armenian, not Turkic. It is found in most all IndoEuropean languages, I will list only a few. Oil in Eng., huile Fr., olio Latin/ Italian, oleo spanish and so on. We use many variations, I mentioned this before, yegh, yugh, yagh, yogh, etc. But one will not find the monograph under these topics. One has to look up the original Armenian spelling of "iugh" (ini hyun ghat)...skip, skip, akip.... "borrowed from an extinct Mediterranean language that was preserved in the Latin as "oleum/oliva" and the Greek "elaia".... As to the Turkish "yagh"; "The (Arm.)colloquial "yegh" has found its way into many other languages, most particularly into the Tatar dialects. There is a rule in the Tatar languages that the "e" sound must not precede a consonant, so the "e" was modified into an "a", hence the Turkish "yagh" from the original Armenain "yegh". I have also in the past alluded that in some formal Turkish circles the proper word for oil seems to be "shehim"(from the Arabic "shahm"), however, if I am not wrong the latter rather refers to animal fat while "yegh/yagh" is vegetable oil. BTW. "charp" is the Armenian word for animal fat. Also consider words like "yaghlik/hankercief", "yaghji/oil trader"(Yaghjian?). PS. I also have access to many Turkic Altaic words that have derived from the Arm. "yegh". Some of them may not be readily recognizable such as the Altai "yu'", Kirghiz "jau", Yakut "aga" etc. Note. In one of my posts my "yogh" ended up as "yoghi". Obviously a typo. It is "yogh".

quote:Originally posted by aurguplu:arpa, i give you the honour of being the master chekishtirer (that last bit is english). 1. the "o" in the first syllable comes there fro (cattle/sheep/goat milk) and many of the things cheers, Thank you for the honor. I will try and stretch things worthy of my title. I am the master stretcher in more ways than one. My maternal ancestors had the surname of Chekij-ian. The prevailing wisdom is that they were named for something having to do with "chekij/hammer", I rather think it is not chekij but chekiji, i.e. puller, bone setter, chiropracter. Chiekiji-ian, not Chekij-ian I will take each of your points separately and clarify.

Ali, special for you. Frorgive the poor translation, mine. Dear Ali, pleasefeel free to translate this to your favorite tongue. Daniel Varouzhan, our dean of poetry may have been embarassed by his family name, Chbukar-ian, took the penname of Varouzhan, i.e male bird. Sorry to say that he retained his bptismal name of Daniel, alien, he could have tiotally revamped and armenianized it to something like Armen Varouzhan. But that is a totally different, if sad subject. One of these days we may wake up and realize that Daniel and his kin are no friends of the Armenian, never have been, never will be. Turk and Jew, an alliance made in gehena. Equally amoral, equally xenophobic(hate thy neighbor), equally genocidal. PS. Ali, if you want to learn how to read the Arm-text let me know. ¸ºðºÜÆÎÀ ¸³ÝÇ»É ì³ñáõÅ³Ý ¸áõéÁ ÏÁ µ³óáõÇ.- ¸»ñ»ÝÇÏÝ, ³Ñáí, Ƶñ»õ ÿ ³ÛÍ»³Ù Ù°ÁÉɳñ Ý»ï³Ñ³ñ, ØûñÁ ûí»ñáõÝ Ù¿ç Ï°ÇÛÝ³Û É³Éáí£ -"Æݱã áõÝÇë, ïÁÕ³ë... Áë¿ ßáõï... ÙÇ É³ñ. úÓÁ± ù»½ ˳ͳ», ÿ ³ù³ó»ó ÓÇÝ£" "¶ÁÉáõËÁë å³ïé»ó ¹Áñ³óÇ ²ÉÇÝ.." ºõ ³Ý óáõÛó Ï°áõï³Û ë»õ ·³Ý·áõéÝ»ñáõÝ Ü»ñù»õ í¿ñù Ù°áõñÏ¿ µÁË»Éáí ³ñÇõÝÝ Ð³Û ·ÉËÇÏÝ ³Û¹ Ãáõñù áËáí ÏÁ ÃÁñç¿£ ø³ç ÙûñÝ Ñá·õáÛÝ Ù¿ç íÇÑ»ñ ÏÁ µ³óáõÇÝ È»óáõ³Í ³ÙûÃáí.- ·Á·áõ»É ÏÁñÃDZ㠿 êÁñïÇ íñ³Û° Û³ÕÃáõ³Í ׳ϳïÝ »ñÏãáïÇÝ£ ä³Ñ Ù°Çñ ·áõÃÇÝ ËáõÉ ÏÁ ÙÕ¿ Ç µ³ó ÎáõñÍù¿Ý ·ÁÉáõËÝ ³Û Çñ ÷áùñÇÏ í³ïÇÝ. ºõ ÏÁ ·áé³Û.- "¸áõñ¹ë!.. . ÙÇÝã»õ áñ Û³ÕÃ³Í ²ñÇõÝÝ»ñ¹ ³Ýáñ ³ñ»³Ùµ ãÁÙ³ùñÇÝ ²Ûëûñ ïáõÝ ã»ë ·³ñ£ سïÝÇã ËݳÙùÝ»ñáõë, ØÇÿ í³ñë³ÏÇ Ñ³óáí± ëÁݳñ... ¸áõñë"!£ îÁÕ³Ý ³ÙûÃ¿Ý ßÇÏÝ³Í Ï°³é³ñÏ¿. "´³Ûó, Ù³ÛñÇÏ, ²ÉÇÝ ÂáõñùÇ ½³õ³Ï ¿. ²ãùÇÝ Ù¿ç Ñ»é ϳÛ, »õ Ù¿çùÇÝ ÷³É³£" "ÆëÏ ¹áõ ³É Ñ³Û »ë, »õ Ù¿çùǹ ÁÉÉ³Û ÂáÕ ÇÙ ÙÁÏñ³ïë, ÇÉë, ÇÝã áñ Ïáõ½»ë... ¸áõñë!£" ¸»ñ»ÝÇÏÝ ³Ûå¿Ý ·»ïÇÝ Ý³Û»Éáí ÎÁ Ù»ÏÝÇ ³ÝÓ³ÛÝ....£ ÐáÝ Í³éÇ ÙÁ ùáí ¼ÇÝùÁ ÏÁ ï»ëݻ٠ÉáÛëáí Éáõë³ÝÏÇ.- Ø»Í ù³ñ ÙÁ Ó»éùÇÝ, çɳóÇ·, ¹³Éϳѳñ, (ØÇÝã ³ñÇõÝÝ ³Ûï¿Ý í³ñ ÏÁ ϳÛɳÏÇ) ÂÁßݳÙõáÛÝ ß»ÙÇÝ ÏÁ ëå³ë¿, »ñϳñ... DERENIK By D. Varouzhan (1884-1915) (Note: All these works in re to the Armenian suffering, as well as those by Siamanto and others were written before "the big one", i.e. before 1915) The door opens wide, Derenik with awe, Like a wounded deer hit by an arrow, Falls in his mother's arms, weeping. "what happened, my son... tell me quick.. don't cry, Did the snake bite you, or the horse you kick"? "My head tore open, our next door Ali!" And he bares open, under those black curls That gashing wound with blood streaking down That little Armenian head, hit with Turkish vengeance. Deep gorges open in brave mother's soul Full of shame... is it right to caress On her heart- head of a defeated coward? In a moment, deaf to her mercy, she ponders From chest to the head of that little wretch, And she roars,- "Out!... until you triumph His blood you cleanse with your own Don't come today. You betrayed my care, Did I nourish you with bread made of oats?... Out!!!" The boy turned scarlet with shame protests, "But mommy, Ali is a son of Turk, There's fire in his eyes and pala on his back." "And you're Armenian, and let at your waist be My scissors, my spinner, whatever you want...Out!!!" Derenik with shame, looking to the ground Leaves in deep silence... There under a tree I see him by light of the moon, A big stone in hand, nervous and pale (Down his cheek blood dripping) At the doorstep of foe, he waits and waits long... [ October 17, 2002, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Garo ]

quote:Originally posted by MJ:Yes, indeed. I guess I was having a blackout. Of coarse it is used as an equivalent of "for example." Now, you make me even more doubtful in Ali's theory. Why are you surprised?You know that Ali comes from a culture that has raised the art of rewriting history to new heights. If you let him he may convince you that Yerevan is a Turkish word based on "yer", earth/place. BTW, he has never referred to my comments that Agri Dag is from the Armenian Aghori(Agori) Ler. I'm sure he knows about the village of Agori at the foot of Ararat. It was ruined in 1915 but the khachkars and ruins of the church of Sourb Hakob are still evident.

You may also have noticed that often in informal speech the i is dropped to sounds like "zorornak", bringing it even closer to the Turkish "oernek".

I failed to mention that the phrase is often misused. I have heard many say "zororinaki hamar". It is incorrect if only redundant. Zororinak alone is enough to mean "for example", or if one would insist to use "hamar" then one may say; "orinaki hamar", without the "zor". Ot is "zororinak" or "orinaki hamar", never "zororinaki hamar".

quote:I don't know much of Grabar. However, I have come across that word in old Armenian scriptures, and if I am mistaken, it is jus a derivative of the word "orinag" or the other way around, bearing the same meaning. Therefore, I am highly suspicious of your explanations of its origin.Zor-orinak is one of the very few Grabar words that has survived. It is still used, abundantly. It is a compound word basedd on "orinak" with the Grabar prefix "zor",i.e. or, in other words it is the Grabar of or=to/for orinak=example, "for example". As above, it is freely used even today.

Based on the above it becomes obvious that both the Armenian chaman and the Turkish chemen are erroneously applied. The main ingredient of the paste is from Fenugreek. Then how is that both are wrong? It is simple when we admit that the Turks have borrowed many words from us. First the Armenians confused chaman/cumin/kamun with Fenugreek then the Turks borrowed it from the Armenian without questioning its veracity. All they had to do was as usual bend the vowels and make sound Turkish. Hence cumin/kamun became "chaman" then it became "chemen". Or better yet. The Armenians were masters in the prepartion of apuxt and they taught the Turks along with the names of the ingredients.

6. yo?urt is a turkish word as far as i know, which comes from yo?urmak "to knead" (in modern turkish) and "to move, knead, shake, make walk" in old turkish. since it is prepared by a process where you curdle milk by keeping te container in rhythmic motion, the etymology is perfectly sound as far as i can see. mind you, anyone who reared cattle or sheep and milked them produced stuff very similar to yo?urt, so we cannot really claim that we invented it. but of course, being nomadic cattle and sheep breeders, we had every reason to invent our variety of it. Ali, you seem to be as adept in the art od stretch as I. You may know the phenomenon as "chekishdirme". I though I was the master stretcher You may have missed the part where I spoke about the other Armenian word for yogurt, "matsun". It is from the Arabic "maajun", kneaded, and that another variation of the word is "matsik" in Armenian to mean paste. So yoghrt is from the Turkic root of "yughur-ma"? Why is then yoghurt is spelled with the o as the second leter and not u or other to sound like "you". I am familiar with the process of rocking and rolling sour milk in an animal skin to extract butter. In the west they use bowls and paddles to beat the milk, they call it churning. Go ahead turkify that too. I'll give you a hint. That barrel that they use to "churn" is from the Turkish "jurun"??? "yogh" is an undeniably Armenian word, it means "oil" and it is akin to all the IndoEuropean words that mean the same. It cannot be Turkish or Turkic. In fact Ajarian contends that they all borrowed from the Armenian. I attest to that. If they had borrowed from any other IE language than the Turkish word for oil for have been something like "yol" or "yal", not yagh. Armenian is the only IE language where the European L becomes "gh". If you want to hear why let me know. "yogh" is Armenian so is "yoghurt" as well. I explained why in a previous post. The word has many variations and provincial pronunciations such as, yogh, yegh, iugh, egh, yekh, yigh and many others. Incidentally some of these words are also pronounced with hemi vowels too like in the Turkish, i.e. e as sheker, u and o as in boyuk etc. We contend that in armenian there are no such hemi vowels, tru, not in formal Armenian but the provincial dialects are replete with them even at the present. Speaking of sheker, this is another loan from the Armenian "shakar". It had to be, and as is it customary with th Turkish the vowels are bent to sound like sheker, not shakar. It is from the Armenian, if it were not then the Turkish word would have sounded like the mother of the word, the Arabic "sukkar" from which all the languages have borrowed, like sugar, sucre, zuccara etc. 7. basturma: turkish for "pressed, jerked" (from basturmak). in fact, your transliteration of it (basturma) is closer to the original than the current turkish form "past?rma". i would appreciate if you could furnish me with an armenian etymology for it (an armenian verb "basturmel"?), and if we had a greek, we could hear his version, too and have some fun (ancient greek verb "pastermein/bastyrmein (y stands for ypsilon)" (to press, to jerk) conjugation: pastermo (long o), pastermis, pastermi, pastermeim, pastermite, pastermon (my plurals may be shaky). but of course, if my greek is still there, the noun from such a verb would be "pastermesis/bastyrmesis" like "genesis, stasis" etc. of couse we half-witted barbarians were too underdeveloped to pronounce the whole word and left the "-esis" out, so we had "basturma". right? I don't know about the Greeks but I am sure the Jews (your newly found sweethearts)did borrow it from the Turkish- "pastrami". The Greeks are not far behind in the art either. They take dolma and hellnize it to "dolates", and so on. In fact their most celebrated dish, at least here in America, moussaka is from the Arabic "mousaqqa'a", which means "chilled". Hovsep can attest to that. The lebanese have the same dish and it is known as "musaqqa'a". As to "basturma" from "bas" to press. As I indicated before it only describes one aspect of the process of preservation, while the Armenian word "apuxt" describes the entire process i.e. raw, uncooked. There are many Armenian words to mean "press", the closest that covers all the nuances of "press", as well as "basmak" is mamul(noun), mamlel(verb). It may be used to simply mean to press down as well as all the nuances of "press", such as to iron, to print and so on. It can even be used to express the Turkish "basma", i.e. printed fabric. Ther are many Armenian families with the surname of Bsmajian. Remember Ruben Mamulian the celebrated film director? Had he reArmenianized his name from Basmajian to Mamulian? "basturmel"? No, "mamlel/jmlel/" [i can't wait for your etymologies.