nairakev

THOTH: I know what do you feel by having grown up an American. My mother is Russian (armenian but from Russia). My father Armenian born in Yerevan. From both sides I have grandparents who were the survivors or the kids of survivors of Armenian genocide in Turkey. My mother didn't speak Armenian as people in Armenia do, she had a dialect called "hamshen" armenian dialect which mixed version of turkish and armenian very weird language than no armenian will understand. She tought me Russian and in my family we spoke a lot Russian. My father was working often in different parts of USSR from Uzbekistan, Siberia, Ukraine, Northen Caucasus. I've changed 15 schools before graduating from High School in Armenia. I have a feeling that I more Russian speaking than Armenian, though I do speak French now and the most bizzare and "scary" that I think in French sometimes. That's something new!

quote:Originally posted by Mike77: You its so funny. Just as you think you have hope for a better tommorow you discover something. Yes maybe thorn rose went there. So what does that prove after all? What you discover is that even if that person took a chance they will end up in Turkish prison with the other 10000 plus political ones. Turkey is ruled and has been rulled by a facsist military dictatorship. So they let a few American Armenians in for tourism! Oh my GOD thank you Turkey for that! You did not murder us for a change. Should we bow down and kiss our master?? I could care less if the Turks let us in for tourism etc. You know what? Turkey is like a Germany before the allies liberated her. Turkey is the unpunished NAZI. A NAZI allowed to live because of the corruption of the West. Do you think that by allowing a few tourists into your racist land, you will somehow makes things right? I am sorry I do not accept that! You must take responsibility for your actions and then determine if what you did was right. If the moderators here have a problem with that ban me now. As I grow sick and tired of people that make concessions to EVIL. Mike77, Are you giving a press-conference? Do TRose or Steve look like TRT correspondents or Milliyet reporters? Give them a break... Besides TRose has been a "turkish" spy for while, now I accuse her of being Turkish Nina Hagen(LOL...) TRose, honey It was a stupid joke, I must admit. Accept, please, my excuses.

quote:Originally posted by THOTH: nunsexmonkrock...yea! ......TV-Glotzer...African reggae....Born in Xixax...Lucky Number....classic/great stuff! What is she (Hagen) up to these days...seems it was pretty lame Disco sh*t...though I may be a few years out of date (her early stuff [in german] was best...IMO) "1968 is over...1981 is over...the future is now!" ra! Wow, yeah, THOTH! Nina Hagen is a punk-rock singer, composer and actress. She is a Diva. A real sexual "menace" Actually she is more cultural phenomen for me than an outstanding singer. She used to be dressed as punk, now she looks more like "chinese" cyber-geisha. She was married to american film-director David Lynch till the year 2000. Oh, yeah... Lynch changes wives as often as the doctors change thier gloves. They got divorced... TROSE: I loved some of her pictures where she got colored version of her darkest ever black hair... Thought may be you are a turkish Nina Hagen LOL... After having been a turkish Matha Hari once [ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

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quote:Originally posted by Berj: Tornado, The issue of Armenian clergy being good or bad is an inter-Armenian issue. And in my view both the present and especially the former (may his soul rest in peace) Catholocoses are to some extent responsible for allowing the spread of sects in Armenia. What I know is that we should stop paying lots of importance to the role of Armenian Apostolic church. It's priveligious position (of dominant and nation-wide church) devides Armenians instead of unifying them around social and cultural issues. [ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Let me know if I can help you. I thought you were already helping me out as a veteran skizo.

quote:Originally posted by poetry: well religion is one of the best arms to divide. The more divisons you cause the weaker morally a country. I know yehovah withnesses are present in Armenia. In the past other western countries played the same game by introducing catholicism and protestantism in Anatolia to evangilze armenians as if we weren't already christians. Now US based groups replaced them. Yehovas witnesses are missioning evrywhere in the world. They couldn't come before in Armenia because the ex-USSR regime was opposed to any missionary. Now, talking about the current situation in Armenia. I don't see serious concerns about religious sects putting the integrity of Armenian society under the questioning? In european countries, in China, in Japan, in Israel, almost in any secular society you got hundreds of religious movements and groups. I think in the contrary - forbiding and persecuting religious groups can have the "bomerang" effect, it will make them get more attention then they deserve. What Armenia needs is enforcing its education policy. Religious sects are effected with badly educated and informed people. Armenia is in Amnsety International 2001 report of Human rights violations. I think what the armenian governments does to Jehova's Wintesses is criminal and it's deserved to be condemned. It sucks, guys, to be honest!

quote:Originally posted by Tornado: Btw at the Hayastan board Hakob has said you are a very-smart-Jew! that board was hacked one month ago! What does this supposed to mean. Is this an insult or a compliment. Tornado, Don't you think that you are exageratting a bit. Look I don't care if MJ is jewish or korean. All my opinion is based on what he publishes and says here in this forum. Till now I've never seen him saying something wrong on someone's origins and religious convictions. What I see here with your statement is that you are working hard to provoke him and present yourself as a victim of conspiration. You can't fool, baby! We can read and we can make our opinion without anyone's help! Your concept of world stands right in Teheran. What I see here is a huge "ego-centric" pride for being an iranian. Noone really blames you to be proud of your origins but when it comes to political, religious, cultural, ethnical discussions you better argument, instead of pushing on your "rediculously" presented pride. I've got lots of iranian friends here in Paris. Many of them are gays. Their concept and vision of Iran is very very different from yours. And they are proude of being iranians as well. And I like them very much!

quote:Originally posted by poetry: Religion is used nowadays as a political tool by USA against third world countries and even some european countries. When USA talks about religious freedom it's not about traditional churches or practices but about sects most of the time. Remember the German government has imposed restrictions on the scientology sect, the french government is getting yehova witnesses to pay tax as they are not considered as a religion. In Armenia the same strategy is pursued: with the infiltration of these sects into the republic they want to undermine the moral unity of the country, therefore making it more vulnerable to external aggression. In China falungong is the best example for that. All these 'religious' groups are nothing but potential political tools that can be used against these countries. Poetry, good lirics... how pityful! Are you hired by Armenian Government to make statemenets on its behalf? Armenia is a secular country. And let's keep fighting for secularism, please! I don't see any reason why religious movements (christian, moslim, jewish)settleing in Armenia today should be viewed as a result of US imperialism. About which sects you are talking? Are they scts or movements?

quote:Originally posted by MJ: Let’s make a deal. You find one expression of mine in this forum or elsewhere, which implies that hearing the word Iran makes me angry, or you find one derogatory statement or insinuation of mine towards Iran and Iranians, then I will issue myself three Warnings and would have the Administrator ban myself from this forum. Also, have the administrator of CyberIran make a declaration and support his presumed declaration with facts on who he things the provocateur acting on my behalf at CyberIran was. And if I cannot prove the identity of that provocateur I would resign from this forum. Finally, when you see Hakob next time, tell him on my behalf that he is an ass.hole, a pathological coward and a degenerate voyeurist. As far as you are concerned, I call you a liar again, and reserve the right of calling you a mental handicap until you present adequate evidence of validity of your allegations per my request, in which case, I have promised to ban myself from the Hye Forum. MJ, Is it you or your "evil" twin. What's up? I know that's difficult to stand a "brut" but cool down, man! I don't want you get banned yourself from this forum. Stay cool, please!

quote:Originally posted by poetry: Well what is sure is that on this side of the border hatred is everywhere. You can write long disserations about promoting friendship between turks and armenians or slamming those who run shoah business, the reality is we are not living and armenians in Armenia don't live in peaceful Canada but in one of the most explosive regions of the world and there is no place for idealistic feelings here and nice speeches about friendship but the reality. Those who live in the confort of their homes in America shouldn't give lessons to armenians of Armenia who live under the constant threat of the turkish military. Petry, you do not seem to ba a liric ...boy! Why do you blackmail this art? I lived in Armenia, and I know where it is and it is. I still got lots of ties with my closest friends and family. I know there is a threat from the Turkish side. But saying that we should hate them would sound a way to nowhere. I mean we can't live under the turkish threat ideology constantly. We should look the ways out of this "explosive" situation. One of those ways is to talk with turks, at least, with those who are willing to talk. We are confronting Turkey since centuries. If we want it to stop, then we should try to change Turkey's mentality. But first let's start from us...

I can't understand how Groong does justify the appereance of Armenians in that article , but here is the original article taken from Yahoo! France Agence France Press report on that issue. I still cannot trust the Groong article until it doesn't give any resources to original online sources. AFP has a very well established online services. While referring to AFP, Groong could provide more details on this "touchy" issue. But it didn't (mistake or intention, I have no idea). So I'll abstain from further commentaries. But I would take more care before publishing the paragraph above. -------------------- http://fr.news.yahoo.com/010607/1/1c8bw.html Fresques de Bruno Schulz emportés VARSOVIE, 7 juin (AFP) - La polémique s'envenime en Pologne autour de l'opération de l'institut Yad Vashem de Jérusalem qui a sorti clandestinement d'Ukraine des fresques de Bruno Schulz, célèbre écrivain et dessinateur juif polonais mort pendant l'Holocauste, relèvaient les médias jeudi. Après un silence initial sur cette affaire, le président polonais Aleksander Kwasniewski a critiqué mercredi soir les méthodes employées par l'institut Yad Vashem qu'il a qualifiées de "raid" et de "geste désagréable". Les fresques, peintes par Bruno Schulz peu avant sa mort en 1942 dans la maison d'un officier allemand sur l'ordre de celui-ci, ont récemment été découvertes par des chercheurs polonais et ukrainiens. Plusieurs peintures, en cours de restauration, ont été enlevées avec des morceaux de mur par des émissaires de Yad Vashem qui les ont transportés en secret à Jérusalem le 21 mai dernier, apparemment sans l'accord des autorités ukrainiennes, selon des témoignages cités par la presse polonaise. "Je ne soutiens pas ce genre de méthodes", a dit M. Kwasniewski devant la presse. "Je pense qu'il n'y a pas et qu'il ne peut pas y avoir aux XXIe siècle de questions que nous ne serions pas en état de résoudre par la voie pacifique et la conciliation", a-t-il ajouté. Le quotidien polonais Gazeta Wyborcza a publié jeudi une lettre ouverte de la communauté juive de Drokhobitch (ouest de l'Ukraine) adressée au ministre israélien de la Culture et au directeur de l'institut Yad Vashem, demandant de prendre des mesures pour prévenir "le vol d'autres oeuvres de Bruno Schulz". "Nous juifs polonais, qui sommes restés sur cette terre impregnée du sang de nos concitoyens, voulons sauvegarder les traces de la culture grande et unique créée par les juifs vivant en Ukraine", dit cette lettre signée par la vice-présidente de la communauté juive de Drokhobitch Dora Katznelson. Le président Kwasniewski a indiqué qu'il s'était entretenu de l'affaire avec l'ambassadeur d'Israël en Pologne, Shevah Weiss, et qu'une initiative réunissant la Pologne, l'Ukraine, l'Israël et l'institut Yad Vashem était en cours d'élaboration. Cette initiative permettrait de "protéger ce genre de patrimoine qui témoigne de la présence juive et de la culture juive surtout en Ukraine où la situation économique est encore difficile", a-t-il dit. Selon une déclaration de l'institut Yad Vashem publiée par les media polonais, "les fresques de Schulz, un artiste juif", ont été "offertes" à l'institut par les propriétaires actuels de la maison avec l'accord des autorités locales. Souvent comparé à Franz Kafka, Bruno Schulz est l'auteur notamment des "Boutiques de cannelle" et du "Sanatorium au croque-mort". Il a été abattu d'une balle dans la tête par un officier SS dans la rue de Drokhobitch (Drohobycz en polonais avant la guerre), en novembre 1942.

quote:Originally posted by poetry: Yes, I still do live in Turkey and let me tell you I don't know where you get this info about armenians being called christian turks but it's WRONG. Sometimes they call assyrians and newely converted turks into Christianity(there is a tiny minority) 'christian turks' but armenians are never called 'christian turks'. This is wrong. They call us (officially) local foreigners to distinguish us from turks themselves and give us a status of secondary citizen(I saw myself a cubboard in the security department on which it was written local foreigners and I was a bit shocked actually). The population itself calls us 'gavoor' that is 'unfaithful' and they claim this is no insult and is just a word used for foreigners. Ara jan you are not well documented, obviously. I don't know what you are trying to do... In another forum I saw you were slamming the divison among political parties here you are insulting a portion of the armenian population. Is this how you propose to unite? Are you an anarchist(which I wouldn't see as a problem) or an agent provocateur trying to make us speak up our minds ...to be honest I haven't figured it out yet. Ijust can guess... May be , ara, meant those statistical infos that you can find in many reference sites. Like "turkish christians form 1% of Turkey's population". It's never precised who are those christians: greeks? turks? armenians? assirians? After all it doesn't matter for me! I care less about religion issue...

quote:Originally posted by MJ: It sounds more of a verdict, not an opinion, Naira. MJ, baby! Don't you feel like abusing your knowledge of English. It was rather a sensitive girl's shouting on the Armenian POPE, than a verdict. I did not arrived yet to that degree of skizo-frinea...but I'm doing my best to get some good points in that direction.

Ok, I step into your game. For me being Armenian actually has 2 scales. 1st scale: First is when I was Armenian leaving in Armenia. I went to a Russian school, so! I wasn't good in speaking Armenian. I spoke Russian with my mother and father at home. The first letters that I've learned were not Armenian but Cyrilic. When you leave in Armenia you feel a part of that huge mass of population predominately stuck into 'strange' and 'made up' traditions, which as individual I never accepted. I grew up in a family which was not religious at all. But we did follow some religious traditions like "matagh", "knounk", "zatik", "psak". My granma (father's mom) was an orphan who survived the genocide and grew up in Leninakan's american orphanage. She was illiterate but very religious (not surprising). So each saterday someone from our family should have accompanied her to Sourb Sarkis for her a saturday service. When I was a bit older (16, LOL ...) my turn came and I had to accompany my granma for her sunday morning visits. Actually, this was my all armenianism. The rest was like many young people do. I loved Dostoevski, Kafka, Chechov, Balzac and even Dumas. I weared clothes according to the modern tendencies(jeans, T-shirts, or mini-jupes). I was listening Eric Clapton, Beatles or Madonna. I was making love with whom I wanted, but the way nobody knew it. And honestly I hated to be an Armenian in Armenia. I loved my friends. I loved them a lot. But now most of them are spread all over the world. Most of my friends were Armenians, but I had also a friends who was jewish, an assirian, few yezid friends, a german and many russians. I loved the Spendiarov's Opera House I loved concerts of Philarmonic playing Khachatourian. I loved some armenian bard singers (no "rabiz" please). I didn't really realise that I'm armenian. Because I could see Ararat from my appartement (and I didn't care if it was in Turkey). I enjoyed hinking and camping in mountains with students in Dilijan. I was a citizen of Armenia from armenian parents with mixed background (russian, arab, german, armenian). I was 100% Armenian. 2nd scale It's when I was outside of Armenia. This is when I felt myself more "world" citizen than Armenian. Whereever I went or I settled I had to learn the local language, the local traditions, the local laws and the local mentality. And I had to say to evryone what my origins are. Because people were often curious. I could hide my origin, because in some languages I did some progress (not in English helas) and it was easy just to say I'm one of yours. Espeacially when you sympathise them. But I said the truth. Why? Because I was proud of being Armenian. What is it for me being proud of that. (I skip the whole story about the christianity, the genocide, the rich and "IMPORTANT" history and inventors of color TV) I was proud because I've learned the local language, because I've studied local traditions, because I was trying always to be the best at my work and in my studies and to be a good friend with those who I do sympathise. Never try to differ who is black who is red, who is inferior or superior bulshit. Never refuse an invitation. I've tried to do ramazan with my moslim freinds. I didn't become moslim. I've never been christian. And the funniest thing is that when people knew about my origins they asked me often if I do have Armenian friends or if I go to Armenian Church. My answer was often "no". Not because I didn't have Armenian friends, I just don't make friends because they are Armenians. And I'm not going certainly to make friends in Armenian Church. To be brief: What is Armenian for me? 1. To be the best in any adventure (work, study) - a healthy feel for competition. To be the best but not at any price. Catch the reminder, please! 2. To be curious. Discover people, cultures, sciences. To take the most interesting out of life by taking and sharing. 3. To be tolerant. Do not quit doubting. When someone says to me this is bad. First question "Why?" 4. To be a "world" citizen. Care about environment, no matter where you leave. Being a world citizen is important for me, that's why I'm saying I cannot stand for mono-etnic protectionist societies. 5. To be contributive. By leaving your everyday life, do not forget to innovate and bring something new and better to the whole human society, not for Armenians only ----------- I miss Armenian mountains, water, drinks, friends and my family. But I want to be a part of the world. So, I guess I'll be 2nd scale Armenian.

quote:Originally posted by elen: Et saxt vresek tents frym ha?????? chaskatsank lol Alex Kornev (whatever that means), if u so proud of being armenian, why do u have russian last name??? or why don't u speak armenian???? huh? I don't undrestand how whoever it was (armenian) in your family would want to be mixed with Tatar or a Jew or even Ukrainian. What, did they loose their self respect as an armenian or what????? Or they just frogot that they are armenian?? which one is it? & i also don't understand if u don't go to church, don't speak the language, I bet u never even seen Armenia, or even know famous people, How can u say you are armenian???? that doesn't make any sense to me. What makes you 100% armenian? 25%(i'm guessing) of your armenian blood or what??? I'm like so confused on your posting. Never heard that. 100% armenians are the real armenians. ba AXPER! ( ooops, sorry i forgot that u don't speak "armenian",translation of that word is "BRAT" in russian. When I meet armenians named "elen" or whatever who say the same thing as this girl said, I really feel sad to be Armenian. But, after all, who can protect Armenians from being not perfect. Do we need a protection? We do have some cool folks and we do have an important amount of idiots as well... Destiny? Noway. It's called human race. Nothing to do particularly with Armenians... I lived and crossed many countries and wherever I lived I have witnessed the same problem. Each etnicity counts some idiots ... there is no doubt

quote:Originally posted by bellthecat: There was an interview with the NY bishop on local TV here. The mayor of Kayseri was also filmed meeting with a blond haired American woman (a reporter?) in which the genocide was discussed. There was also an article in todays Sabah about the Kayseri church, and yesterday (Friday) there was a front page interview also in Sabah with some of the Americans when they were in İstanbul. Can you get hold of yesterdays Sabah, Thorny? STEVE and TRose, Thanks a lot both of you guys! I read with a great interest. TRose, how come green hair? Are you a Nina Hagen fan? Steve, looks like this whole event was very mediatised in Turkey. Can you tell us what is the reaction of people. I really wonder a lot how ordinary turks did react? TNX

quote:Originally posted by Tornado: About sumgait and karabagh, zangezur issues, I must say that the allegations of murder and rape is made on both sides, and as I know from the reports, I have purchsed it even by the Armenian organization, the instiggator of violence have been reported being either outsiders or the agents of Turkey and Russia. But what has one to to with the other? Tornado, Sumgait murders of Armenians in the Begining of 1988 was the "explosive" to put the fire of war on. The Artsax conflict started two weeks before Sumgait events. I was in Armenia at that time. Please, before talking about allegations and some "turkish agents" stories, verify the chronology of that conflict. If you will make a chronology you won't find any massive murder of azeris in Armenia, backed by authorities. The Sumgait events where first shown on Soviet Television and clearely explaned by Genrick Borovik, that it was a massive murder where authorities did have their part of responsibility. Once showed on TV nation-wide (all ex-USSR) Armenians did witness what happened in Sumgait, that raised a huge tension in Armenia. I got in my class a girl who was one of those first refugies arived from Sumgait. On the other hand, I had a friend who was azeri seating in front of me in the same class. But again, talking about Armenia (let's leave Artsax aside, because at that time it was part of Azerbaijan), no authority representatives did organise any massive persecution or worse a massive murder of azeris in Armenia, till earthquake azeris lived in Armenia. And after the earthquake the situation in Artsax worsened as never and azeris started massively leave the country in the same moment armenian refugees were leaving Azerbaijan. There was no organised murder of azeris in Armenia (again I'm not talking about Artsax, which was a war region - the frontline of conflict). 160.000 azeris left Armenia as 700.000 Armenians left Azerbaijan. This sad scenario was evident, though I regret that Armenia didn't succeed to cool down the tension and guaranty the safety of azeris in Armenia. Check the chronology of events, please, before touching the subject. Did you leave in Soviet Union? Your statements are sometimes so controversive that no one even a "truthful" soviet armenophobe won't mix them the way you do.

quote:Originally posted by MJ: He is a member of our forum. Yeah, what about Pinochet? Did he subscribe to Armenians.com mailing list? If we talk, seriously. Where is this guy, someone, any idea? Vano Siradeguian is the biggest arshole that Armenian history knows. I cannot understand how Petrossian did let him go so far in his policy. Someone once said that Levon Petrossian was his "hostage"? What will happen to this society if a Minister takes President as a "hostage" ... Is there any process on V. Siradeguian!

quote:Originally posted by ara baliozian: if i were a bishop i would say: God bless you, my child! Hopefuly, you are not a bishop! Do you regret?

Here is some info on Kurdish (yezids) genocide from Gomidas.org -------------------- Sarafian, Fernandes Keynote Speakers Princeton, N.J. (26 July 1999)—At an important seminar in London, scholars Ara Sarafian (University of Michigan, Ann Arbor) and Desmond Fernandes (De Montford University, Bedford) presented papers on the impact of Turkish nationalism on Kurds and Armenians over the past 80 years. The panelists drew attention to the ideological continuity between late Ottoman and modern Turkish history. One manifestation of this continuity was the policy of turkification pursued both in the Ottoman period and later in modern Turkey. The seminar was sponsored by the Peace in Kurdistan Campaign, United Kurdish Committee--UK, and the British Committee for the Recognition of the Armenian Genocide. The Armenian Genocide The first speaker, Ara Sarafian, argued that for Ottoman Armenians "turkification" meant physical annihilation. Over two million Ottoman Armenians were slated for destruction in 1915. The Turkish entry into World War I facilitated this process, as no outside powers could intervene on behalf of the victims. Over 2,000 towns and villages were emptied of their Armenian inhabitants who were subsequently destroyed. First the young men and community leaders, then the women, children, and elderly were murdered. Some were killed at the outset of "deportations"; others were killed from disease and malnutrition in concentration camps in the deserts of Zor in Syria; survivors of these camps were murdered outright at the end of 1916. There were no Armenians left to speak of in what became modern Turkey in 1923. Sarafian pointed out that the Greeks of the empire was also slated for extermination during this period, but their destruction was averted probably because of the possibility that the (neutral) Greek state next door would declare war on the Ottoman Empire. The destruction of the Ottoman Greeks was implemented after 1918, when Greece had entered World War I. The destruction of Greeks started with the genocide against the Pontic Greeks on the Black Sea, then the murder and forced exodus of the remaining Greeks in Asia Minor. Well over two million Greeks were "ethnically cleansed" from their ancestral homelands between 1918 and 1923. The city of Smyrna was torched to force the exodus of its large Greek population. The common denominator in these Armenian, Greek, and (later) Kurdish cases was the intention to create an exclusively "Turkish" state with no minority populations. The Kurdish Genocide Desmond Fernandes, who has worked on the Kurdish Genocide extensively, continued the seminar with a powerful discussion of the persecution of Kurds in modern Turkey. Fernandes pointed out that the Turkish government adopted a much more sustained genocidal program against Kurds, aimed at the assimilation of this community as ethnic Turks. Often the engineers of the destruction of Kurds were the same people who destroyed Armenians a few years earlier. Fernandes outlined the Turkish genocidal policy under the following categories: (1) forced assimilation program—banning of the Kurdish language in Turkey, denying the existence of Kurdish history, the forced resettlement of Kurds in non-Kurdish areas of Turkey for assimilation, the indoctrination of Kurds through the Turkish education system, radio and television channels; (2) banning of any legitimate opposition to the Turkish government’s programs—e.g., Kurdish cultural organisations, political parties, media outlets, etc.; and (3) the violent repression of any Kurdish resistance. Hundreds of thousands of Kurds have been murdered by Turkish state authorities over the past eighty years—the Sheykh Said and the Ararat uprisings in the 1920s, the bloody suppression of the Dersim in the 1930s, as well as the PKK campaign in recent years. The Turkish state has imprisoned Kurdish members of the Turkish parliament, various human rights activists, as well as many academics advocating Kurdish rights such as the Turkish sociologist Ismail Besikçi. The Turkish government has also assassinated scores of journalists and intellectuals over the years. [For a detailed analysis by Desmond Fernandes--including a thought-provoking discussion of the definition of genocide--see "The Kurdish Genocide in Turkey, 1924–1998," Armenian Forum 1, no. 4 (Winter 1998–99), pp. 57–107.] Western Complicity Both speakers stressed the complicity of Western countries in the genocidal policies aimed at erasing the Kurdish identity in Turkey. Western arms and know-how have been instrumental in military campaigns, as has been the silence of Western governments in the face of atrocities. In some cases, Western military personnel have been known to have participated in killings. Turkish military and other personnel have also been trained in the United States, including in methods of torture and assassination. Seminar Discussion Several distinguished guests comment on the two papers. They included Dr. Kamal Miraweli (Kurdistan National Congress; National Council of Peace in Kurdistan; United Kurdish Committee-UK) , Gareth Peirce (a British lawyer who has defended Armenian and Kurdish prisoners in British courts), and Mizgin Sen (European spokesperson of the Kurdish liberation front, ERNK). British Suppression of Kurds: Practical Advice Gareth Peirce pointed out that the suppression of Kurds has not been limited to Turkey and the Middle East. The British and Turkish governments, under the rubric of "suppression of terrorism," have managed to criminalise the Kurdish community of Great Britain. Without engaging the legitimacy of a Kurdish struggle for national rights, the British police have deliberately worked to cast doubt on every Kurd in the United Kingdom as terrorist suspects. Supporters of Kurds have been pressured to desist in their aid to Kurdish refugees by being stigmatised as "terrorist supporters." Many organisations have been frightened into inaction, which has served the purposes of the British police. Kurds in the United Kingdom have thus been burdened with such external pressures from British authorities—in addition to their concerns for their kith and kin in the Middle East. The recent closure of MED-TV, the independent Kurdish satellite television channel based in London--a voice to millions of Kurds throughout the world--is one case in point. This closure was implemented by British authorities reacting to pressure from the Turkish government, as well as other inducements, such as lucrative business contracts for British companies in Turkey. Despite the political agenda of the British police in the suppression of Kurdish organisations, however, Peirce stressed that most Britons did not know the facts surrounding the Kurdish case and would be outraged if they did. In one legal case in the 1980s, when two Armenians were caught while planning a grenade attack on the Turkish Embassy in London, the two Armenians made their case to a British jury and were acquitted. Peirce stressed that at the political level there exists a great potential for support that can be tapped in favour of Kurds and Armenians in the United Kingdom--despite official misinformation and smear campaigns by opponents. Kurds and Armenians Several Kurdish discussants stressed the importance of pushing for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide on par with the Kurdish issue. Even if the Armenian Genocide has effectively run its course—as Sarafian argued at one point—there was a moral case that has to be made, and Kurds should be the first to do so. Furthermore, politically, the Armenian and Kurdish cases strengthen each other against the Turkish state. Indeed, Dr. Miraweli pointed out that the Kurdistan Parliament in Exile has made a point of including Armenians (and Assyrians) in its ranks, and has recognised the rights of these communities as an integral part of a future Kurdish state. Several individuals commented that Kurds today are well aware that some Kurds participated in the genocide of Armenians in 1915. Even today the Turkish government has co-opted certain Kurds in its bloody campaigns against other Kurds. The use of Kurdish "village guards" against the PKK is one example. However, the legacy of Kurdish participation in the Armenian Genocide should not be allowed to become a rift between these two peoples. Otherwise they would be playing into the hands of their common executioners--Turkish nationalists and the state they created in 1923. At a practical level, it was also pointed out that Kurds and Armenians face the same propaganda campaign from the Turkish state. Turkey today denies its crimes against both Armenians and Kurds. This denial is an essential element in the management of Turkey’s image abroad, and this image is essential to facilitate the flow of western aid to Turkish military and propaganda agencies. Without this soft image, Turkey would be hard pressed to receive these resources. Consequently, a common strategy to expose Turkey’s human rights abuses and genocidal record to a Western public could go a long way in undermining the Turkish government's capacity for repression. If such aid dries up, then Turkish authorities would have to allow more democratic solutions to their problems. One Kurdish participant, obviously moved by the seminar, related how her life reflected some of the key issues discussed. Her immediate family was split and "resettled" in different parts of Turkey by Ankara. She grew up knowing where her ancestral home was, but never visited it until later in life. She never learned her native language. And she remembered her Armenian grandmother and the stories she had to tell. The latest stage in the Kurdish struggle awakened her to her identity and now, like millions of other Kurds, she is no longer a soft target for assimilation by the Turkish state. Indeed, she is now a fighter for Kurdish rights. The Kurdish people have awakened and the struggle for their national rights, as well as the rights of their neighbours, continues. This seminar was the first of its kind in London, and the organisers agreed to hold similar seminars in the future. Nora Vosbigian ----------------- http://www.gomidas.org/forum/af4kurds.htm

Someone knows what happened to Vano Siradeguian - the Minister of Interior Affairs during Petrossian's mandate? He was toughest son of a bitch. I know that he jailed many yezids. I don't touch Armenians. That's another issue. He was the most fascist minister that Armenian ever had. He is responsible for many crimes. And he was the one who continued communist era "police" model of state! Where is he now this "tyran"? [ June 09, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

...but rather are allegation of Human Rights violations I'm puzled... Did I miss something. About which allegations you are talking about?