nairakev

quote:Originally posted by alpha: Naira, your argument that democracy is a reality in West is a myth promoted by Western governments. The whole political elite is corrupted by special interests. It takes huge amount of money get elected, and people who sponsor the elected officials expect return on their investments. Examples of these are bluntly evident in US, (gun lobby, cigarette lobby, etc.) You are right people actually choose their elected officials, but that’s not such a positive thing. Remember that Hitler was elected also; do you think it was a right choice by German people? General populace is incapable of electing. It’s too naïve and dumb. That’s why there are political strategists who manipulate the public, with money obtained from special interest groups. A great example of manipulation of general populace are the presidential elections of Russia in 97, and the stupid “vibiray ili proigrayesh” slogan. A few months prior to elections Yeltsin had popularity only among 5% of Russians, and only in a matter of few month political strategists were able to portray a different image of Yeltsin. Democracy advocates rule of majority, which in respect ignores the concerns of the minority. In US swing vote obtains disproportionate power during close elections, thus ignoring the views of minority. That’s what happened in US. Right centrist has won the last presidential elections with the help of ultra right religious conservatives, and now we have Ashcroft as Attorney General, and left is being squeezed out. I find the constitutional monarchy the best model for governance. It gives stability to government and minimizes the affects of special interest groups. The monarch should have some real powers, not be a figurative persona as it’s in Great Britain. Alpha, there is a huge difference between the US democracy and the European. I prefer european

quote:Originally posted by ceyhun: There are websites which recognizes the genocide built by the Turks. One is http://members.aol.com/xsoysal/index.html/...l/homepage.html There are forums where Armenians and Turks talk about it http://www.network54.com/forum/4359 There is also a Turkish-Armenian Communication Forum. You can reach that one from the network54.com address above. I agree with your ideas that there must be a place where Armenians and Turks should talk to each other. Thank you, ceyhun, I'll drop by there!

quote:Originally posted by THOTH: But what makes Armenians so special? (in this sense) They will be like the rest - for the most part (I can certainly give Armenians credit for cultural resitance to outsiders for milenia etc - even while surrounded & overun - sure...but do you not think that significant elements of each of these has been absorbed? (this is perhaps a whole nother thread/subject for discussion - and the significance of homeland versus Diaspora...). The bottom line - Armenians in their diasporas (particularly in the US/North America) will be (for all intensive purposes) absorbed - it will happen - what an I say?. (and I could make an argument that perhaps this is not as bad a thing as is commonly beleived...but I would have to first convince you of the value of Western civilization at its curent state of evolution and where its headed - etc...and I am not sure I am totally convinced myself) So where does that leave us? I think Armenians must look to the Jews for inspiration (perhaps Armenians should convert to Judiasm - eh? [or something besides Christianity...to ensure a {much more clearly} set apart tradition]...just a thought) (and the Armenian Church(s) in general is/are just so out of touch [and seemingly lame...I don't profess to be an expert...just an observer...]...perhaps we need to split into conservative [national(ist)], liberal [for rich aloof Armenians] and reform [for the rest of us...even including non-beleivers...just like the Jews...eh?] or some such...). THOTH: I don't think that bringing Jews as an "inspiration" example is a good idea. The religious war didn't start yet and Armenians didn't live yet that period. The future is what you said. It is a US model of "melting pot" - some consider it as "assimilation". US though being a today's flagman doesn't necessarily have garantees to be the same tommorow. What is positive from US example which spread world-wide (just check demographic statistics from the UN and you'll see what I mean). US has started building this "melting pot" But will not be able to control the "war of religions", as far as I know it will be involved int it deeply. Jews are fighting to protect their religion. And there going to fight till the very end alike christians, hindus, moslims and budhists. Talking about assimilation. Think about religious assimilation or "melting pot". It will give you some new ideas, heh? [ June 12, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

quote:Originally posted by ara baliozian: BETWEEN PROGRESS AND PARALYSIS ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In every nation, even the most backward and authoritarian, there are progressive and pro-democracy forces that are for human rights, peace, cooperation, and coexistence. It is in our long-range interests to side with these forces, which is something we cannot do if we adopt a purely nationalist stance. We have friends among our enemies, including the Turks and the Azeris, if only because, after centuries of cohabitation and intermarriage, half of them are very probably half-Armenian. I was brought up to believe the Turks are bloodthirsty savages and to this day I cannot help hating them with every fiber in my being. But I have also come to realize that, when reason contradicts emotion, it is wiser to follow the dictates of reason. Understanding this means taking a step in the right direction. Refusing to understand it means wallowing in rage, self-pity, lamentation, and ultimately political paralysis. To write is an act of optimism. To hope that what you say will be read and understood is an act of faith. Some of our greatest writers (from Abovian to Zarian) committed suicide or fell silent exactly because they did not see any future in Armenia and Armenianism. I refuse to believe I am being pessimistic when I speak against lies, propaganda, intolerance, bigotry, arrogance, ignorance, and stupidity. I reject the notion that to oppose fascism is unpatriotic. The central message of our literature (from Movses Khorenatsi to Charents) has been solidarity. The central activity (repeat, activity) of all our organizations (especially political org/s) has been the exact opposite: divide and rule, which translated into practical terms also means: divide and alienate. Seen from that perspective, Zarian’s dictum is as true today as it was 60 years ago: "Our political parties have been of no political use to us!" Ara, I admire the way your express your message. But your poetry starts to smell. I don't know your culinary preferences but I don't eat when something smells the way I hate. We have friends among our enemies, including the Turks and the Azeris, if only because, after centuries of cohabitation and intermarriage, half of them are very probably half-Armenian. I care less if an average turk or "inaverage half-armenian" even being friendly should deserve my friendship because of his origins. I'm not interested in "antropology" of any humanitarian philosophy. We had in the past some very distinguished specimen of that "humiliating" and "stinking" guild of "anthropologists". As an average human being I have as many enemies as many friends. I prefer ignore my enemies which I didn't choose, and talk about friends. My friends, them, I had a chance to choose. And they do not belong to any particular race or particular ethnicity, I love them for their deeds and thoughts. If I feel thinking one day that evry good deed of a friend, was possible because of his race or ethnicity, I should have to choose between all good deeds. I refuse to choose, I take them all. The choice is the worst deed among all good deeds. I can have a friend who can be turk, but I do not want to have a friend because he is turk. A do not want a friend because he is Armenian, either I reject the notion that to oppose fascism is unpatriotic. What do you want to say? Did you understand a word from this phrase? I din't. What did bring to your head such a "bezork" contstruction of words in a very "mauvais goût" selection of contrasts? ... Are you in "surealism". But that's so "retro". And it degrades retrospectively. Don't you think?

quote:Originally posted by Hovik: ...I would say human rights exist but democracy is an illusion. Hovik, you are exagerating. There are always problems in democratic societies. European leftists repeat often the same thought: "Democracy is not perfect.(they smile and then comes ...) Do we have any options?" For the time being (democrasy) it is the best option that we have. All other options have been explored. (Right?) But we are still looking for new options. And we all contribute to it by our experiences. Democracy is a reality in the west. It is not an illusion. Illusion is when you imagine something unreal and you take it for "real". Here (in Europe) democracy feels the beginning of social crisis. Human rights are respected in real life. Talking about human rights, it is a long issue. That I do not want to go deep into. But I know that human rights are something connected to social phenomenons and they mutate in the same direction that the human society does. It is a never-ending process. Democracy is a fruit of the principal right - the right to elect. Electing its rulers, its executioners and its governors.

quote:Originally posted by Hovik: I had heard that speech from a teacher in europe who was saying 'our model of democracy is exportable to the entire world'. Well, Saudis will claim their shariah is the best for muslim states and many people in the third world are ready to believe them, and so on... But why to export? Let's every nation find its way in its context. Hovik, baby! Human society is a market place. And as usual, in any market place there is a competition to sell smth. Each micro-society (EU, US, Saudi Arbia) China, Russia, Pan-Turkists, Zionist) is trying to market its values and vision. So, we are condemned. We didn't invent anything. We were born like that. Competetion is our trouble, but do we have a choice, since we know what is a competetion?

THOTH, I agree that the music issues was out of topic innthe place where we were discussing Nina Hagen. So I've started this thread! For those who got no idea who is and what is Nina Hagen. Visit her official website: http://www.nina-hagen.com ----------- quote: send by THOTH Fruschante (may be spelled wrong) is the guitarist (and a fine one) for the band BTW. And he is/was a huge Nina Hagen fan! Fruschante was Nina Hagen fan? Wow! Thoth, who is Fuschante in Red Hot Chili Peppers. Can you describe or if I find a picture. Can you tell me which one is him on this pictures (Attention you may harm yo eyes!): -- http://www.redhotchilipeppers.com/family_a...h081200/23.html -- http://www.redhotchilipeppers.com/family_a...ch081200/19.jpg -- http://www.redhotchilipeppers.com/family_a...ch081200/20.jpg -- http://www.redhotchilipeppers.com/family_a...h081200/33.html --------------- THOTH, Can you find his pic on that site? TNXs

quote:Originally posted by Hovik: read the previous messages may be you will see I just want to point out when people run out of arguments they start insulting rather than presenting valid arguments I very much appreciate the way you are discussing in the other part of this forum. If mister Baliozian is such an expert in these issues let's discuss. I am presenting facts I never pretend to be an expert, however I am here at the heart of this country and I feel that Mr Baliozian sometimes assert things without being hundred percent sure of them. Hovik, with ara you should be careful in making fast conclusions. He is one of those rare armenians, who got still a good taste for autocritisism. Most of his writings are rather dialogues than monologues. Have a look again! [ June 12, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

quote:Originally posted by Hovik: I only know that Mekhitarist Congreation only continued on the road opened by the armenian church however I don't neglect their contribution. But the importance of their work can it be compared to what was produced during the golden ages of the armenian literature? If I'm not mistaking but Mekhitarist Congregation in Venice (Italy) and in Viena (Austria) are catholic congregations but not armenian orthodox. I remember to have read about that somewhere. But I'm not 100% sure to affirm. I'll try to look for more info on the web. As soon as I find any confirmation or objection, I'll let you know.

quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose: One way of putting what I would like to express: I think in terms of what one can visualize in one’s mind when they think of an event. For us Turks, the National Struggle and the War of Liberation are defined by mental pictures of soldiers and gun-smoke on the steppes of Anatolia. For Americans and the Trail of Tears, one can make such guesstimates, too. I think that for us Turks, this whole “affair” with the Armenians in 1915 has only the picture of people being made to leave their homes and some of them starving. This is an impediment to thinking it can be anything close to genocide. I can infer this from myself and from how I saw things about a year ago. There are many other snapshots to be added. Houses and churches with inhabitants inside being burnt. People rounded up and killed. I dunno... So much else. So much else has been added to my own “archives”... These need not be provided in the form of photographs, though I believe these would be the most effective (and I think Ali would agree). Diffusion of reading material (survivor and eye-witness accounts) is difficult, however, but a conference and/or a TV program are entirely legitimate. I think this would be the beginning of understanding of the issue. I do believe that there are many Turks who have a potential to understand this as they are curious about and understand a number of national issues; but they are denied access to a lot (and some foreigners and/or Armenians deny them for it, which is wrong). TRose, do you know any turkish website dedicated to the genocide issue? In Turkish or in English? All I met where sites spreading weirdly defamatory information and hatrid. Are there any sites who discuss or even deny it (genocide) argumented way, without siding Young Turks or fabricating facts of that period of Turkish history? I remember being told, early months of last year, that Turkey's and Turks' coming to terms with the Armenian genocide was important for our democracy. I had laughed (then). But now I think it is right. It will be symbolic and of course an end in itself - but it will be beneficial in our overall development TRose, I agree. From the Genocide Recognition Turkey will get only benefits (talking about intellectuals, government and the society). It will clean its image of a "repressive" country, which is built not only on the events of 1915, but there are also post-genocide evolution. Military power, Rights of women and political opposition. Huge investment in the army, permanent economic instability, the problem of Kurds, Gays, social and medical care. Many of this issues are raised by the European Union along with the reviewing of its imperial past. As it appears to be the question of the Recognition of Armenian genocide, followed by excuses to the victimes of that tragedy, can just improve the image of Turkish nation and bring more stability in the economy, stimulate the freedom of speech and improve the social rights which are opressed today by the militaries backed government. The Recognition will allow to Turkey to break down finally the powerful Military lobby, which still keeps the tough hand on Turkey's reforms and future developement. If there are many Turks who might be interested in a constructive dialogue with Armenians, I think the best thing to do is to develop and create some common information exchange places where by mutual efforts some understanding of the issues will be established. (Online forums are one of those places). It's been a month I have created with some of my friends a forum where we try to keep the "cool" on the information distribution by trying to denounce the defamatory information from both sides (armenian and turkish). We want to develop a place where only the Genocide Recognition and Turkey-Armenia-Caucasus related issues will be discussed. If you have interesting information regarding Armenian issues in Turkey I welcome you to post them there as well. http://www.armenianforums.com -------------------

quote:Originally posted by THOTH: wow - thanks - didn't know it. And lo & behold - the first entry I see in the Guestbook - "Nina in Armenia"! the second entry being yours of course - Nina in France. etc I should check out more her recent material - as I am a bit out of date. I have several live tapes I (& others) have made (late 70s early 80s vintage from shows...funny, through mutual interest in Nina I became friends with one of the Red Hot Chili Peppers (John Fruschante) - who at one time was the roomate of one of my best friends...also a musician (and almost RHCP drummer - was #2 in the audition...oh well...etc)...I have lost touch though...shame... Enjoyed the site - BTW - will check out some more in the future (which is now!)... I was her fan while living in Russia. She was a rare guest on Russian TV. But she was among those first western stars who came on the scene, after Gorbachev has oppened the doors. I loved her style a lot. There are lots of fans of Hagen in ex-USSR. But it's funny she is not so very well known in Europe (besides german-speaking countries of course). She is a very provocative person and she invests a lot of her time in raising money for various humanitarian and environmental projects. She sang in English but not so often as in German. Her grandparents (from mom's side) and her father are the survivors of nazi concetration camp. I don't think that it is the major reason why she is envolved in humanitarian activity but certainly it can be a part of it. Did you join her fan club, too? Which one is John Fruschante from Hot Chili Peppers? Do you have somewhere his online pic or smth where I can see him? I like some of their woirks. Very sentimental group. And ...sexy...as well, ha!

quote:Originally posted by Tornado: ....we pan-Aryanists know ... What does it mean pan-aryanist, Tornado? What is the philosophy of pan-Aryanists?

quote:Originally posted by Garo: Naira some of these sects already have so much power that the political leaders (so far the local ones) do contact them and use their members' vote in elections. And this is not a free favour. So...? What we'll do? Should we allow the government persecute them, imprison them or execute them? There many problems in each society. First of all, there is a difference between sects and religious movements. In many European countries (such as France, for instance) the sects are forbidden. But again they have a precise definition of what should be considered as a sect. Jehova's Wintnesses are not considered as a sect...It's a religious movement...But followers of Rael are called sectants. So raeliens is a sect and forbidden in France. See the difference in ? The same may be should be discussed in Armenian Government, if there is a danger of sectantism in the society. But again, this is a very delicate question which cannot be turned into a new "hunt" for witches...! [ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

quote:Originally posted by ara baliozian: AFTERNOON REFLECTIONS ********************************* After writing for Armenians for 25 years I have learned to discriminate honest disagreement from phony one-upmanship whose intent is not to make a contribution to the dialogue but to assert non-existent intellectual superiority. A reader writes: "If your intention is to unite all Armenians, you are going about it the wrong way." Unite all Armenians? What an absurd notion! All I want to do now is expose charlatans. Charlatans cannot be converted. Charlatans are our problem and as such they cannot be part of the solution. Asking them to become partisans of solidarity would amount to asking foxes to unite with chickens. Talk of unity with chickens to a fox and he will think you are talking about lunch. And I think of the pyramids of Egypt: what are they if not monuments to human degradation! -- products of ignorance and arrogance on the one hand, and on the other, subservience and fear. They should bring tears to our eyes, not awe and admiration. To anyone whose degree of self-objectivity is low, any honest assessment is bound to come as a shock. Maestro, I hate charlatans. But you should be aware of danger while tracing them. You can be caught by your own devotion. We witnessed already the "witch-hunt". I don't think another hunt will be funnier. After all, we are all witches...

quote:Originally posted by Hovik: Without the armenian church we would have been one of these muslim nations of the region. As for abuses yes there have always been abuses by the church and not only by the armenian church but the advantages of having the armenian church outnumbers the drawbacks of it. During communism years it was the only institution with a national and traditional character representing that old world that communists used to slam. For that single reason it deserves respect. I don't see any danger if Armenian state was moslim. I don't think if armenians didn't have become the first christian state in 301, that we wouldn't have been turned into judaism, budhism or islam. Some of you forget what a tough resistance christianism did meet while restoring in ancient Armenia. Christianism was instored by fire and sword. Do not think that we became so easily christians and we will stay always truthful to this religion. Human society evaluates and religious movements mutate as well. Besides, MJ, can tell you more about the armenian influence in European protestantism. This influence returns back as soon as Armenians never have been known as fanatics and they are always following the tendency to seek new faith and spiritual inspiration. --- Someone was talking about Belgian authorities having imprisoned a Jehova Witness for refusing to serve in the federal army. The problem is that Belgium, unlike other EU member states, doesn't have alternative military services for pacifists or those who refuse to touch weapons. --- I agree completely with MJ, those who do not want to serve in the army because of their religious convictions, should be offered alternative services. France offers its military recrutes to fulfil a civil work instead of army service. For example, in municipality hospitals or social institutions. There is always an option for those who cannot or do not want to serve in the army. It depends on the cultural traditions of each society. Armenian society never got close to the western societies. It has mutated from an ex-Soviet republic into a young unexperienced caucasian democracy surrounded by totalitarist or semi-democratic states with deep economic and social problems. I don't suggest to copycat the western model, but at least, to study their experiences and take the best out of it. --- I think the biggest error of the Armenian government that it continues (while being a secular government) to privilege the Armenian Apostolic Church. The Armenian Church till now did not bring any significant input in the Armenian society, beside creating civil unrest (the scandal around the sects is a proof) and it continues to collect money for establishing the new churches and religious seminaries. There is absoluetly no use of this church. No use. Protestant churches and many catholic churches participate more actively in social life of the surrounding society than any orthodox church. In Paris the Armenian Catholic church opens its doors to all poor and trumps for free food and clothes (you don't have to be armenian to get that aid). Armenian Apostolic Church collects money during funerals, marriages nad bathems. Do you have any positive example where the Armenian Apostolic Church participates in our societies social life? Please, bring them. Because I'd love to talk about that. [ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose: Oh gee... I had guessed it meant "yes" and I had told my aunt so, but she said, "No, it means 'no'"... I guess that is what it means in Abkhazian... It was like an "ayaw" the way she pronounced it. LOL... so it means "no" . I'll keep that on my mind.

I don't give a damn whether MJ is Jewish or Korean either. Hm, if you say so... In that case, probably, try to avoid "racist" citations made by others. It will show that you don't give a damn...What do you think? But according to the racist discourse of some people here, I think that 1-Steve, half Iranian Armenian, half American and Iranyar Iranian Georgian, 2-myself being indo-european but of another branch. Have more right than a Jewish or Korean operson to discuss , because we are ethnically closer to the armenians, than an Altaic or semitic person Yourself being indo-european? It's so large and unclear? What the hell does mean being indo-european? Does that mean, that by presenting yourself indo-european you can allow yourself to talk on all indo-european issues? (LOL...) May be you could say that you are a "world" citizen...It could be more clear as a position. In that case you could touch any subject. but talking about origins...Hm, indo-european? Means nothing and evrything at the same time... Altaic, semitic... Does your vision on world's demography lay on "language" tree schema? And finally, you think weirdly, if you say that as indo-european you have more rights to discuss on Armenian issues than any altaic and semitic person. LOL... Altaic and semitic person? Is it how you name now a turk and a jew? Hey, you juts go ahead man! You rock! What else you are going to say. Let's have some fun ...

If the church money will be limited we'll see how many "saints" will remain in the church LOL... There are no saints, actually in churches. They're rather pieces of art!

quote:Originally posted by MJ: ...Tatevik Hovhannesyan ... She lives in NY? Boy, does she still sing? I loved her so much!

quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose: One thing that my aunt told me recently was that Armenians and Abkhazians share the "ayo"... And more, in fact, but she couldn't remember. Any comments on that? Any particular ones you have noticed yourself? ayo - means yes in armenian. Does it have the same meaning in Abkhazian?

quote:Originally posted by poetry: Americans can talk about human rights! Amnesty International visited american prisons and criticised them. However US government didn't accept that criticism and considered that letting AI visit the prisons is the proof of human rights being respected in US. I mean a country like this, can it give lessons to others about human rights? I don't think so... I think americans should put their own house in order before criticising others. Letting a criminal like O.J. Simspon free cannot hide the reality in which blacks live in US and US is still one of the countries where racism is very strong. I don't think US has a satisfactory enough human rights record for giving lessons to others. Giving freedom to all sorts of illuminated people to practice their religion doesn't mean there is freedom. The fact that US has been evicted from a UN body related with human rights is the best proof that a lot of countries in the world are fed up with the double standards used by US(at home and abroad). Poetry, we were talking about Armenia. I didn't talk about USA. Remember who brings the US issues into our conversation?

quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose: No need for excuses, I knew. I think you probably wanted to include the "spy" within quotes, though. I was just refering to that idiot who was calling you spy here in this forum. I think he got banned. But not only for calling you "spy", but also for some vulgar and insulting attitude. I do regret it happened to you. I'll be more attentive with quotes next time. I thought you have mentioned already that I'm mistyping almost every second word in my phrases. I was always a bad typist! [ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

quote:Originally posted by Paul bunyan: Yes, indeed, it really does however the Evangelical and Catholic churches do not believe in the Yehova's witnesses HERESY no pleasure of sex in marriage and no bearing firearms EVER! of course if all Armenians were witnesses, there would be no Armenians left anywhere in the world. You must sometimes kill to save family or nation and Protestant Armenians and Catholic Armenians stand ready to fight with Orthodox Armenians for Armenia any time against the enemy so there is no reason why there should be any tolerence for fascist repression especially since Armenia was the original democracy in the middle east Armenia is a young democracy, Paul. Very young and fragile. And probably one of the best in Caucasus region!(not in Mid East!?!) The rest of what you have said , unfortunately, I didn't understand. Sorry!

quote:Originally posted by Thorny Rose: My mommy knows/knew a little bit of Kabardian and Abkhazian (though mostly Kabardian, I understand), but she forgot as she grew older and didn't teach me anything, though I do remember some weird songs before sleep, which she probably remembered from her own childhood. I am fifth generation here with respect to my grandfather and fourth w.r.t. grandmother. I tried many times to immitate my circassian friends. I did fail. I though that Armenian is horribly different language to pronounce, but circassian was realy hard experience. Though I love dancing circassian dances. It is so beautiful [ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: naira ]

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