THOTH

agreed. Same logic could be used for the Armenian Genocide - it was Gods will...if so then why even complain, why grieve etc...(do yeah -- I don't buy this at all,,,not one bit..)

Dan I think many (armenians..and perhaps Sev-Marde - LOL) would be very happy to obtain Armenian Citizenship. Perhaps not for all the same reasons. It is a shame that there is an environment there now where one might not be happy to be a citizen - and that many who are now - are fleeing for better oppurtunities and to escape the coruption and look for a better life. This is a great shame - and I would say that any interested in being a citizen of Armenain - should also be interested in making Armenia a better place - and not just a better place - but the best place!

Much congrats Anoushik! (and welcome to the club! USA USA rah rah! LOL) Shame that there are folks - who through perhaps their dislike of American foriegn policy and maybe aspects of our popular American culture (their perogatives certainly...and I'm not so thrilled about all myself) fail to understand what you are justifyable feeling right now. It is botha great accomplishment on yoru part - for which you should feel proud - and very lucky/fortunate and you now have the oppurtunity to prosper and flourish based on your own merit. The sky is the limit for you now. And you and yoru eventual family (if you haven't one already) are blessed to live in aland where you are offirded these oppurtiunities and the freedoms to be yourself and do as you wish. Cerainly things could be better - as crime and other factors make our expereicne/environment less then it could be - but no you have a chance to do something to help make it better for us all. There is something very special about the American spirt - being an American - that I know is difficult for others to sometimes understand (and I don't mean to take away from being a citizen of any other nation either - for many have their points etc)...but I kow that you - and most other naturalized Americans -understand what I am saying - probably more then most who have been born her and twho take our freedoms and oppurtunities for granted. So make the most of it - and welcome once again!

Yes Domino I would - I would support the right for someone to make that decision (and it not be a criminal act). I think anyone who arbitraily wishes to do this should be examined however (for mental isssues). I see your point her - but this is a subset of the issue IMO. I think anyone who has ever witnessed the type of sufering that we are talking about (and hardship for loved ones) that folks who pursue assisted suicide endure etc - well I don't think anyone who has a true understanding of this - could really oppose it...(though I am not saying that there aren't "maral" issues...like wwhat if there were a cure in the future, or could your mind be too adled/drugged to make such a decision etc etc

more http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_sel.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/winter_solstice.htm http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/pagan.htm http://www.literatureclassics.com/ancientp...zine/pagan.html (Christian sorece...mentions Jan 6 as day recognized by Armenians BTW) This one is a god one: http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/ dont miss this part - http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/borrowin...ng_started.html and from another wacky christian? perspective: http://www.therefinersfire.org/christmas.htm

Yes what Domino has said is true... here is a pretty concise summary that someone wrote up http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm

Edward - I didn't see the program but am very familiar with issue - not from any personal expereince per se - but have thought about thhis issue for a while - have been a supporter of this type of "good death" for a long time - and have even emt and discussed this with the president of the Hemlock society - a support and advocacy group for this sort of thing. Frankly - to me - anyone who opposed people beig a ble to choose a dignified death - when they are terminal and/or in extreme extreme incurable pain or suffereing so - wel that is hat is criminal. We all die eventually. It is absurd - IMO - for anyone to oppose people in this condition taking their own life (or getting assitance for such). First no one takes this sort of thing lightly. Secondly what is the purpose of living in pain fo what? O r extending ones life when it is pretty much a foregone conclusion...for what? Here is oppurtiunity to go out right - with love and feeling good about your decisoin - achieving closure -all of it. To me this is really beautiful. And I think anyone who opposes such is just clueless about wht these people and their loved ones are goign through. Is ist the answer for everyone? no. But for those who have thought it through and wish it - well its none of your business to deny them - or to jusdge them. And if you say - well my book says its bad - not allowed etc...well thats just another argument for the uselessness fo being dogmatic concerning said book...IMO.

!!!!! So you are advocating that its better to lose weight in smaller increments eh? - don't push it so much... And here I was about to sign up for that program! LOL Again bravo! funny...

LOL - what are the human's excuse then....lol - all this evolution - we should be better at getting along with one another - working to the common good etc...eh?

Stormy I understand your feelings on this...however its the natural (or unatural as it were) progression. For better or ill...don't know...but I very much think that it is certainly going to happen. Any interested in this sort of thing might enjoy the "Uplift" novels of David Brin. Particualrly "Startide Rising" (winner of the Hugo and Nebula in 1984)...it concerns a Dolphin spaceship...with a mixed human, Dolphin and Chimp crew..some very interesting Aliens and many interesting points to consider. Great book BTW. The follow on volumes are also quite good - and the next one - "the uplift war" deals directly with some of these very moral dilemas of genetic maipulation (also dealt with in the first book...but more directly in the second)...

Oh Brave New World...what wonders etc... of course...many issues...a great many...oppurtunities for man to become gods, or devils, or both...

Stormy - good points.. And Domino - have you considered that within your lifetime we will be able to genetically modify that chimp for speech and perhaps for greater mental capacities as well. Its comming. And this whole area of genetic manipulation (and a parallel technical thrust of minaturized bio-mechanical implants) is ging to create some very interesting moral debates and such..in our very near future....

Nice post NP...and Domino...are you refering to this thread?...I must have missed your & Yalp's postings (always good though)...perhaps I was just chatting away somewhere...sorry..

Yes Armat - should be Ok. 98 was far better for the Merlot based wines from the Graves & Right bank (Pommerol & St EMillion)...some real deals to befound there. I imagine that your Marguax is drinking well though. Let us know. And again Congrats! Good for you...make us proud!

Yeah Fadchickadee...this is the humor thread remember? LOL But yeah Storms..I second the Fadchicks question...just what is this comparative Genocide whatever...? Another one of these "Armenian Studies" like Turkish propaganda fronts? (no dobt)...or something non-exsistant/made up - like Weems? Ah the ATAA - such a legitimate outfit themselves eh?

Maybe so Domino...but what do you mean by "serve" - as in slaves/sevitude..etc...have you ever watched any of the "planet of the Apes" movies?...LOL

Great - congrats! seee....now about that Margaux..I hope your talking something perhaps 1990 or before...otherwise I would suggest waiting a bit! LOL (Okay 91-94 as well - but they weren't in general very good vintages to begin with....)

No Armat - nader was the right choice for you - I voted for him as well - and will gladly do so again. If Gore didn't do what he had to do to deserve your vote then he shouldnt have gotten it...even though the final esults were ahall we say less then desireable....(but they didn't rest on the actual vote count anyway...did it much....)

Interesting question Domino. But wouldn't much of the "rights' or considerations etc to a human 5 year old have to do with their potential for growth - that they are eveolving into an adult human etc? And frankly I'm not sure that a chimp is quite equivilent to a 5 year old. I mean at 5 my kids were playing chess, talking about history and current events - interacting verbally in general...and much more...are you sure that the 5 year old level is the correct comparision? And in general I'm not sure there is a direct ocmparision anyway - nor is mental level maybe the only standard... not saying that we shouldn't be concerned with being ethical (or whatever) towards chimps....

Well Sev-Marde & Stormy - I am very (outwordly) extroverted...but I must (honestly) say - i've alwasy been pretty well liked (even if I am often obnoxius - I must admit & I do understand - LOL) ...but I'e never been the typical case in any event (I can be sensitive [very] and introverted (hmm?) too...

Yes the wrath of Domino! ..but i have always made it a point to defy the gods...oin any and every way possible!

Oh...yeah Ok...but there are certainly many aspects to this sort of denial - even if they are funny - like that American guy Weems - that still hit home to me and make me very sad and angry. I'm sorry - but I can't help feeling this way. And lok at this - here I have taken a humor thread and tried to make it more serious...LOL Just what will Domino think of me now?

Stormy while I can agree with this - to a point - we should all be aware of mans inhumanity to others/ourselves...I think that the case of the Armenian Genocide and its continued denial has some very specific lessons etc that require special attention. First off the tragedy of the Armenian nation to me - was as severe as it gets - and is such a testament to the snuffing of a vibrant culture and people - in their homeland by the forces of state power and by essentially an invading people (culmination of etc)...so many lessons really...and then the aspect of the aggrassive denial - and that political circumstances have allowed for such. SO yes - I don't at all begrudge any peoples to call out for recognintion of their tragedies - and I fully support such - and I fully support condemnations of those forces etc responsible for such - but I do believe that the Armenians are deserving of some closure - recognition and all the rest - not just because I am Armenian - but certainly there is a personal aspect to this desire as well - but it is a clear lesson for all of us - a clear and very relevant lesson for all peoples I think. And I believe that the Turks as a people are particualry stained - in the modern era - for their governments and academia's clear refusal to adopt a mature and repentenant attitude towards the crimes. I think that full recognition and remorse etc is necessry for the Turkish people to fully enter the modern era. Not that other peoples etc could also do with more contemplation of thier histories (recent and otherwise)in this regard - but this campaign of denial and deception (outward as well as inward) is particularly shameful IMO. I also understand why this is so - as the Turkish republic is founded on this idea of the Turks as victims and that they were betrayd etc etc - but isnt it about tie that the Tuks come to grips with reality and move on from their nation creation myth? Wouldn't this say much for the maturation of the culture/people? But perhaps they just are not yet ready - for a variety of reasons...and a great shame that is. But in the meantime no Turk should expect love from Armenians..again a shame - because I think there is much in the common history and common culture to be valued - and I think that both sides need to be able to grow beyond this - and eventually accept and forgive and move on - and perhaps one day be an example to others in this regard...yeah I'm an idealist...but what can I say...

A-H do you really believe this? I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you...

Wow Stormy I had missed these (Keenan Pars pieces) when you first posted them. Any valid point that this guy might have (and an interesting portryal of the Karachay "genocide") etc - is overcome by his obvious bais against and hatrad of Armenians. I don't mean to sound like a Jew who acuses anyone with a negative opinion about anything Jewish as an Anti - Semite - but to me this is clear - and of course "publishing" in/on ATAA - well.... And again where he and others like him really fall flat is this calim of 3 million? Turks killed during WWI - - and attibuting these (supposed/unverified) deaths to actions on the part of Armenians...LOL - yeah women & chidren witrh pitchforks - a deadly combination. And all should note this not so vieled threat that he makes of histoy repeating itself. With more Turks like this guy I would say to expect trouble (I mean this as us towards them...perhaps an organization of the likes of ASALA may not be a bad thing - for the likes of Turks like this guy) Oh and this last post - a Turk suing to get rec ognition of an Armenain Genocide of Turks...know what I say - "bring it on" Bring it on baby! What fools...what stupid arogant foolish fools...