THOTH

Vahe G - Your the one - or yur buddy Dave - who is making some case against those of us who have working wives and who contribute in the home and such. here and elsewhere I see posts foprm guys like you who seem to see women only as wives who stay at home and cok and take order/be subserviant to Armenian males. I say fine - for those who really want this - and some do aparently - but really now - you can't expect most women - who have now become educated to settle for that crap. And why is it that you assume that one cannot have a happy family where the husaband and wife are euqaul partners? Why must it be the man who is boss etc. It is you who are insinuating that my values are somehow lesser. And I highly reject this.

Nice post Skittles! And Dave - I washed dishes professionally - for 6 years in restaurants - so don't go telling me how well or not I can wash dishes. Additionally I help with everything around the house and with the children - everything. And my wife is often away - for weeks - on business trips - and I care for my two boys entirely on my own - no problem. And I'm very likely a much more accomplished lover then you will ever be - I can assure you. So it is indeed possible to have it all - and to not be effeminate or what have you (as in no way am I)...and I'm sure that I have a better job then you do as well....LOL So there. Your idea of a strong or ideal marraige may be all fien and dandy (though I pity the gal that muct put up with the likes of a guy with your attitudes...oh well - perhaps that is what some want - and more power too them)...but I for one think that there are many marraige arrangements that would be more ideal - and to me a marraige is an arrangement where the husband and wife are equal partners. Sur eI might cut the lawn and do yerad work, work on cars etc - and she may do the laundry - but it doesn;t mean it has to be that way. i see no problem what so ever cooking dinner, shopping, doing the dishes, bathing the kids and aht have you - and no problem at all - just the opposite - with her working a good job. I'm fully comfortable with it...and can't at all see what is it with guys like you who seem to be afraid of women having any kind of independence and freedom. I for one am not intimidated by it. So why are you?

Dave - We've all been over this type odf discussion before...but lets say for arguments sake that my wife was a doctor - and all i was good at was moving stones...and we had a few children at home. Now which of us should go out and work and which stay home - in your mind?

Agai Domino - your talking the ideal - I'm talking reality..Yes pain killers should be available - but often aren't - its a great shame really - an injustive...but it is reality. Also - after so many meds - narcotics etc - a person pretty much looses it - who wants ot be like that all of the time? I've actualy experienced this with a very close relative of mine. And we discussed suicide - and I was supportive of whatever she wanted - though she decided to stick it out - which was good - but she didn't last much longer anyway. Ler me just say - these were not easy discussions. I read the articles BTW. But the 7 pager - I read the fisr few pages - the interview - then the last 2 or so - didn't realizre that they were different - but did seem odd/disconected. I dont just post things I dont read. I might not read every word - but enough to basically know what I'm posting. And yes - your right - most do not choose suicide - and thats good. But for those that do - and have - they ought to have that right. And those that help them should not be criminals. It is people like you - who are trying to make the decision for them - who are not giving them the choice. And you misunderstand me about the kind of life wotrth living. This is an individuals choice - and yes - if one is terminal or in such intense pain that they cannot function - except as a vegtalbe - wel yes - ending ones life is an acceptable option IMO - very much so - and there is no shame at all in taking this position.

First – you need to figure out how to write a paragraph. Second you have not at all addressed or even properly presented the issue of ‘"feminism" and its relatively proper position in our times’ And what is it that you find contradictory about recent feminism…and what is this feminism and such that you feel 99% of feminist understand (and 99% don’t understand this alluded to but unexplained shism..etc) – where do you get these figures and what are you talking about????? You so miss the point. If a group is being repressed you refer to the common elements of repression – or what not. Are you claiming tat no one can give examples of individuals who are being repressed or mistreated etc. If one cannot dot hat then I wouldn’t think the movement would get to far. This is another paragraph of yours that just says nothing at all. So what? What if slaves didn’t develop a consciousness of a liberation movement until recent times. Do we then say – well lets not talk about the evils of slavery in the past – it was accepted then – so it must have been OK? (and I understand that values change over time etc etc – but still – your claims that there is necessarily a myopic view etc are just false IMO. It is just that – your claims – like most everything you present here – if you wish to convince us that you are taking some sort of scholarly approach then you need to reference your opinions etc and back them up with examples (not that I care so much to wish you to do this…). Why must equality have its roots in socialism. …what about “With liberty and Justice and equality for all” etc…bunch of commies now are they? And yes – often people/groups/movement etc must seek redress with either legislature or the courts to force their points. Are you saying that those who did such in the civil rights movement were wrong to seek redress under the law. Should they have just rioted? What’s your point? And now you rail against all liberal causes/issues….are you Rush Limbaugh? And here you reveal you biases. And we are a socialist society wit a socialist school system. And this socialism is automatically a dirty word etc…yes yes we hear you (you are so wasting my time…it was just easier to tell you off like I first did…but since Nairi and others couldn’t wade through your bullshit – I felt obligated to make it clear. And BTW – the second half of this last paragraph says NOTHING. And you contradict yourself so – saying its only for materialistic good (sounds like capitalism to me) but then you say its all just socialism…and whats so wrong with materialistic good? Isn’t this a (if not the) fundamental principal of the founding of our Republic (USA) – and shouldn’t all have equal opportunity for such -= and not just forced into dependence on others (now that sounds like socialism my friend…and slavery…) Equal rights is NOT the same as equal in all respects. It is you who are twisting definitions and such for your own ends/agenda. And you said you wanted to address feminism now – yet you can only be critical of some supposed view of the past. And what if there are some/many differences between men and women. This does not change the fact that all should be free to do as they wish – to not be constrained by your definition off what is right and what is not. Mind your own business –again I say! Just because (and if – its just your speculation) a few women or whoever might have issue with your statements about equality (and I really think its just you being Rush Limbaugh here – I don’t think there are really many serious folks who are so skewed etc) – so again – a non-argument). So just what is your complaint – you say no one disputes…but then you conclude? By saying that civil rights advocates have forced folks to accept this….come clean for us now…. Well if you know von Mises you will know that he will say the same about every institution – and that he is essentially against anything to do with centralized government etc – am I not right? And please read his statement. Again I contend that he is not really saying anything of substance. His first sentence – well I see nothing wrong with women having a legal position and such like men – and legal and economic freedom…are you saying that this is something wrong? And it’s a branch of the liberal movement? So? But then this claim of going beyond this (or does he mean acting on it?) – well just what is this and why is it a problem? He is trying to say that the old way is the natural way – and just the right way for things to be – implying that women should just stay home and not work and all these things (he could say the same about slavery – its just the natural order of things – no) – its all the same. This is his point – and the point you are trying to make. But you both have no understanding of the evolution of culture – it is not a static thing. Go and study some anthropology to see what I am saying. Our world is changing and so are our social institutions – all of them – for better or worse – it just is – but I for one feel that it is the moral and right thing that women – and all people are given equal treatment, opportunity and protection – and are not bound by the views of the likes of people like you!

Sorry A - mouse i stand by my position. you are basically attacking the idea of women's equality -ie fair treatment - being allowed free and open opuurtunity etc etc - it is quite clear to me - even if you attempt to veil it as an attack against "radical feminism" etc. It is clear preceisely as a result of your personal opinion that i quoted. Thus i hope for your sake that you find yourself in a position one day where you are froeced to eat your words.

Are you calling yourself a mistake? Please - don't be so hasty there..think it through a bit - LOL!

A - mouse - I think my position was pretty clear (unlike what you presented - essentially a bunch of gobblygook - I mean ahat the hell is your point - I have no clue). So yes the one clear thing you state is: "On a personal level I do not agree with feminisms claims of advocating that women seek to fullfill their ends in the material world to build a career instead of a home and a family as the central importance of their lives." So i tell you mind yoru own business - who cares if you think a women should e essentially a slave without the means to take ccare of herself. I just hope tat you have some serious illness sometime where the only person who can treat it is some female doctor and then you are faced with a moral dilema...maybe then you will change your mind about women having careers and being allowed the same oppurtunity as men to do whatever the hell they want to do without having to listen to your some old tired bs.

Funny Armo - feminist (women) ussually (well always as far as i can think of) really like me and treat me well - as I would exect to be treated (and respected) - vice versa I imagine as well (even if there are at times some mutual flirts...LOL - but nothing that is unreceptive...) - as I certaily treat everyone the same (but when I have complained before - i[n jest] - is when I get the guy working for me - when I would prefer the pretty lady - LOL ...happened to me not so long ago - ah well he worked out fine too [ie did the owrk as expected]...so no complaints)...and also in fact - I recently had a choice of a very pretty gal to be assigned to me -or this guy - both of whom had worked for me on [projects before - well after some deliberation I chose the guy - based purely on his specific capabilities and related factors (seemed like he would be available for more hours etc)...though perhaps either of them would have worked out...and she sure looks and smells better! - etc - and we will be working in pretty tight quarters! LOL ..the lesson being - don't let your personal feelings decide - make work descisons and such based purely on the best for the job...and besides she'll still be nearby and I'm sure we'll go out to lunch and such! LOL

Anymouse - very charged words - you are pushing a clear agenda here (though not very clearly - not really a good presentation - and lacking totally in any substance) First of all - it matters not at all what you think of what a women's "place" is etc...and thats the point. Why should any individual be restricted in oppurtunities and treatment in their lives? And why the hell do you think that what you believe should apply to other people. They can make up their own minds thank you! Who are you to tell another how to live their life? That is the point - there should be no difference in how anyone is treated or any restrictions placed upon them or any lessening of oppurtunity or what not. Now please argue why anyone should be restricted form doing what they desire and are capable of - whatever it may be.

Links for assisted suicide studies: http://www.longwood.edu/library/suic.htm A very nice one with lost of its own links.. http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/aint/312.htm This one lays it out pretty well http://members.tripod.com/~LifeGard/index-3.html From a clinicians perspective (very balanced BTW) http://www.endoflifechoices.org/microsite/ http://www.hemlock.org/index.asp http://www.compassionindying.org/locked_room.php a testimonial http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1571/9_1...erm=%3Fcf%3Ddls this one even argues/concludes against assisted suicide - certainly there are issues to be concerned with I also recommend checking out a book by Thomas Szasz: "Fatal Freedom - the Ethics and politics of Suicide" - very worthwhile if you care at al about this issue. (And you should know that he is pro-suicide - but against doctor assisted suicide!) And for those whop thik that one can just up the dose of pain meds - well consider - these meds are limited by health insucrance and plans - in fact you cannot have access to unlimited pain relief meds - and if you do they can be incredibly costly. Idf you are going to dies anyway - and horribly etc - isn't it bette rto allow your kin etc to benefit and not just squirril all that money away for nothing/ think about it. Anyway - it should be your choice. one should not be prevented from having the choice - thats all.

ditto

Yeah I agree Sev-MArde...its silly enough when you see black guys runing around acting/dressing such...but when you see suburban white kids - well i don't know -get a life is what i think...but kids will be kids i guess (and that ussually means mass stupidity...)

WOW yeah - hope everyone is OK out there...

Sasun & Fadiix - what can I say but from my perspective you both so miss the point. Domino - all of yoru objections and suggestions are taken into account. Though perhaps one could take enough meds and just be outr like a vegtable and live on for years...would you really think this to be life? And Sasun - why is not someone s life their own to take. You don't want tanyone telling you when to get married and what car to buy etc etc - all these sorts of things - so how is it anyone's place but the persons whose life it is to make such a choice. And it should be the persons choice - with counsuling and discussion with firned relatives etc - as is always done in these assisted suicide cases - to decide when enough is enough inn regards to pain, suffering and the downward spiral. Who is to say that living another several years - if that - is worth so much. Ones life is composed of many years - of growing and interacting with friends, family, raising a family perhaps - etc - so with that being pretty much done - why not say - OK i am ready for my end - no one can live forever...what is more natural than choosing your own time....one way or another...(anmd i just dont at all buy this idea that we have been lent a life or some such...our lives are unique - each one based on chemisty, genetics, environment/experience...and we all need to deal with what we've got and make the best of it...no sense in worrying about past lives or demands from unseen beings or whathave you - we have pelnty to worry about and take care of right here down on the ground. And yes Stormy I agree completely! LOL

Yeah Maral - I think you summed it up pretty well...LOL

Sasun - if you are a christian then why do you fear death so? In these cases death is a good thing - and I am most happy for those who can end their pain etc - and most happy for their loved ones - sho must go through real heall.... Yes I am 100% sure I am right - for this issue - BTW.... You say no harm will be done by not "killing" - well you are wrong. Why don't you take the time to research this a bit. Try talking to some of these folks (and theri families) - who have incredible pain and suffering - with no relief in sight. Have you ever experienced an inkiling of such? What abotu for years then...with only deterioration and more and more pain. You obviously are so without a clue. Sure the easy answer is that your book says so...easy yes...because it saves you from thinking for yourself - and from feeling.

I very much agree Yalpa. Very well said. And i'm glad that you posted such.

Yes Stormy - what we must put up with....LOL

I'm so sorry to hear of yoru friends death Azat. It must be very difficult for you. Try to make the best of it - with your friends - try to remember your friendship and the good times you all had. hanf in there...

Anoushik - I'm very happy for you (even better then a birthday - this pretty much is only going to happen to you once in your life). What a story you have. Please - write it all down oneday - and soon. This is something you should pass on to your children. Again - I feel very happy for you - a big day!

Where in our core values do you find hatred? There are always people who hate others etc - and yahoos & bigots and what not - (seems like you might have some problems in Armenian too - eh Dan?) - but these are not at all the core values I'm speaking of - of course. At least here ethnic hatreds are not causing folks to kill one another. And there are legal protections for most any minority or otherwise. and so on and so forth...And most importantly - everyone is accountable - no one is above the law - including the governemnt. (sure perhaps the ideal - but pretty much the case)...and individual and property rights are respected. But I suppose life living in your folks basement is pretty much the same wherever you live...

Well Sip...speaking of materialism...LOL....I would say that perhaps your without a clue for/about other things..

Dan you fail to understand at all what the US is about if you think it is only about materialism. And as you state - you fail to understand why one wold be proud of becomming an American. But maybe you don't. I think that the pride expressed by Anoushik and others at becoming an American is very genuine - and is exactly for the reason you stated (and more perhaps) - because it is their country and they accept and identify with the (core) values. I certainly do - regardless of any differences [and/or embarrasment] I might have with politicians, government officials, and whoever else..)...so yeah - proud to be an American!

Yeah Armat - happy birthday for you and your boy! ...and many more...