Armine Barseghyan Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Hello everyone, what do you think about Tureky's possible membership in the EU? here is an article from the Greek press: http://www.greeknewsonline.com/modules.php...rticle&sid=1759 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 I think that Turkey should (eventually) be in the EU - but not prematurely - and I think they still have a ways to go (and agree with the article that much is lip service and maybe temporary moves to help with their consideration). I would really hope that they are forced to recognize the Genocide as a price of admission - but I'm not holding my breath that this will really become the issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 I've just returned from Turkey yesterday and I think it's a mass delusion on part of the Turks. They will never admit Turkey into the EU (for obvious reasons that need no explanation). I think some Turks are starting to grasp the hopelessness of it all, but their politicians seem too thick or too opportunist to admit it to themselves. Genocide recognition as an accession criteria sounds ridiculous, but I wouldn't be surprised if they would even use that just to get Turkey off their backs. Even though the article comes from the Turks' second best buddies he has some valid points that Turkey is and always has been a pawn between the US and the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 I don't think Turkey will ever become European country. I would love to see Turkey as part of USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I would love to see Turkey as part of USA. Or Isreal. They are closer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 ...and are made of the same defective material Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I've just returned from Turkey yesterday and I think it's a mass delusion on part of the Turks. They will never admit Turkey into the EU (for obvious reasons that need no explanation). I think some Turks are starting to grasp the hopelessness of it all, but their politicians seem too thick or too opportunist to admit it to themselves. Genocide recognition as an accession criteria sounds ridiculous, but I wouldn't be surprised if they would even use that just to get Turkey off their backs. Even though the article comes from the Turks' second best buddies he has some valid points that Turkey is and always has been a pawn between the US and the EU. Genocide recognition will become a criteria - but it will be a fake criteria invented by Turkey as an excuse for them not facing up to the real reasons why Turkey should not and, in all likelyhood, will not become a member of the EU. We already see the current Turkish government dreaming up other fake reasons, like Turkey being Islamic and Europe being a "Christian club". For the Turkey to make such a statement shows how immature and unfit for EU membership they really are. The Turks are a people who might dress European and speak the jargon of Europe, but very few seem to have absorbed anything of modern European values. So what if Ergogan "abolished the death penalty and army-dominated security courts; repealed curbs on free speech; brought the military budget under civilian control for the first time in Turkish history; authorized Kurdish-language broadcasting; and swept aside thirty years of Turkish intransigence on the Cyprus issue and eased Greek-Turkish tensions" if he did those things only to gain EU admission. He should have done those things, and done a whole lot more, and a whole lot sooner, for no other reason than to ease the oppression and backwardness in his own country! Turkish newspapers are full of whining "journalists" who complain of how Turkey is allways having to fill more and more conditions set by Europe. They fail to see that if those conditions are met then it is for Turkey's personal benefit regardless of possible EU membership at the end of it. There is something seriously wrong with the mentality of a nation that not only cannot pull itself out of a hole of its own making, but complains bitterly when it is gradually pulled out of it by others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armine Barseghyan Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I agree with you, bellthecat, when saying that there is something wrong with the mentality of a nation...I feel sorry for them, they don't know who they are. Of course, whatever Turkey does is just to obtain the long-awaited membership. Armenians know very well what Turkish diplomacy is able to do. That is not the point here. The thing is that something is really wrong with the European mentality, too. Look at their criteria for Turkey's membership. Look at the pro-turkish moods in Europe nowadays. I don't know wether negotiations will start or not in December, but in case Turkey becomes a member, the EU will collapse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I agree with you, bellthecat, when saying that there is something wrong with the mentality of a nation...I feel sorry for them, they don't know who they are. Of course, whatever Turkey does is just to obtain the long-awaited membership. Armenians know very well what Turkish diplomacy is able to do. That is not the point here. The thing is that something is really wrong with the European mentality, too. Look at their criteria for Turkey's membership. Look at the pro-turkish moods in Europe nowadays. I don't know wether negotiations will start or not in December, but in case Turkey becomes a member, the EU will collapse. I think the EU is an empire - and just like any empire it doesn't know where or when to stop expanding. And that will be its ultimate downfall. But as empires go the EU is more democratic tham most - which is why although the EU political "elites" want Turkey to be a member, the population of Europe will not if they knew the price that will have to be paid by them. Which is why I think that although the EU will talk membership, Turkey will never actually be allowed to get as far as signing if Europe's population wakes up. (But that is the trouble with "European mentality" - they have become lazy about actively defending their democratic ideals and have allowed thmselves to become politically disenfranchised without even realising it). The trouble with having a "Turkish mentality" is that most Turks are quite happy to have it and continue having it (and there are, dare one admit it, some nice and positive aspects to having it) - and actually think of EU membership as more a case of the EU joining Turkey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 It would be best for them if they would get out of their national mass psychosis. It must be a real strain to live with a split personality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 As far as I am concerned, not only Turkey can and should join the EU they should get the hell out of Anatolia and move into the heart of Europe, be it Germany or else. They can even move to America as there seem to be many admirers of Ataturk here as well. That was their initial intention in the first place anyway when when went knocking at the gates of Vienna. Having failed at that they retreated back to OUR LANDS. Now it may be time that they resume their conquest of Europe and leave us alone. Besides, the Europeans seem to be enamored with them anyway. If they only knew what designs the Turk has for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Well it's too late for that Arpa. Whether we like it or not this is just a pipedream. It's a beautiful country believe me but the country is theirs now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigil Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 (edited) Once Turkey joins the EU you can kiss Armenia and Europe goodbye. Anyways, why bother, PEACE! Edited August 27, 2004 by Vigil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Turkey will eventually join the EU; it's too late for Europe to say no. The process of getting ready has had some slight and superficial but perhaps ultimately helpful changes in Turkish laws and attitudes. It is highly unlikely that they will truly evolve to the European ideal (which of course hasn't been really and fully achieved by the EU members either) when they join. After they join they will have no further incentive to change and evolve in any fundamental way and will view it as a vindication of their entire history. But, it is also a possibility that by that time Russia will progress to the point that EU would not be embarassed or intimidated by its presence, and might want to woo it in order to keep the "Europeanness" of the EU at that point. In that case, the "ever-closer union" (i.e. modern empire or U.S.E.) dreams will probably have to be discarded, and EU will once again become simply an economic and judicial harmonization area. Just some late-night thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 My take. Turkey is going to be devided. One of its parts (the Western part) will join the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Turks have one advantage. They have nothing to lose. Their culture is arabic, their language is mixture of arabic and turko-altaic, their script is latin, their architecture is .....never mind, their cuisine is greek, armenian, persian and arabic. Their military is typical totalitarian structure, they have weak social security and their judicial system is a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skhara Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 Turks have one advantage. They have nothing to lose. Their culture is arabic, Arabic? I was always under the impression that it was bar-beric. architecture is .....never mind Who said that Europeans are pro-Turk? Ever talk to a German? -- They hate Turks. In college, everyone who has had any kind of interaction with them ended up with a strong dislike of them. One year on my floor in the dorms, there was a Turk from Istambul, and his roomate hated him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Bark Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 My take. Turkey is going to be devided. One of its parts (the Western part) will join the EU. One part to Lucifer and one part to Ahriman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 One part to Lucifer and one part to Ahriman? TB it's not that simple. Ahriman is too smart of a guy to grab a piece of shit. He is working to convince God that it is not what God think it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasun Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 (edited) One part to Lucifer and one part to Ahriman? Ahriman? or Yerevan? Edited August 29, 2004 by Sasun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 In the last meeting in Constantinople, President Bushy advocated the inclusion of Turkey into the EU, to which Jack Shirac of France told him to leave European matters to the Europeans, as the later do not make suggestions to US to include Mexico into US. Adultery might be AGAIN a crime in Turkey. European Union warns Turkey over law on adultery By Daniel Dombey in Brussels and Vincent Boland in Ankara September 13 2004 The European Union has given Turkey one month to scrap its proposals to outlaw adultery, or face a setback in its decades-long quest to join the Union. The proposals, which would make adultery a crime punishable by imprisonment, will be debated by the country's parliament tomorrow. Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the socially conservative prime minister, argues it would serve to protect women. But the European Commission has told Turkey that the adultery proposals could hurt Ankara's plans for membership talks with the EU. The Commission is scheduled on October 6 to pronounce on Turkey's fitness to join membership talks and EU leaders are due in December to decide on whether and when to start negotiations. The Commission recommendation will be based on Turkey's progress on human rights and democratic reforms, and many officials are worried that the adultery proposals are intolerant and invasive. Although the legislation applies equally to men and women, critics argue it would be used mostly against women. If Turkey has not renounced or abandoned it, the Commission will probably deny Ankara the clear endorsement it seeks, people close to the issue say. That could result in a delay in the start of negotiations or even a move by EU leaders to defer the decision over whether to begin talks. "The adultery proposal is clearly a tactical mistake by the Turks," said one EU official. "If they pushed this through a couple of weeks before the Commission recommendation, it would simply make things more complicated for them." GЭnter Verheugen, EU enlargement commissioner, who has just returned from a trip to Turkey, has indicated that if there is not sufficient progress on reforms, talks may not begin immediately. That would be a blow to Ankara, which has demanded that talks start in the first three months of 2005. In an interview with the Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper on Saturday, Mr Verheugen said that after 40 years of promises the EU could not refuse Ankara's application, but added Turkey would not join before 2015. However, some of Turkey's supporters fear that if the adultery-law controversy continues, EU member states may avoid making a firm decision in December - and instead set further conditions for the start of talks. Austria and Cyprus have reservations about Turkey's membership bid, though without further allies they are unlikely to block a decision to start talks. There has also been controversy within the Commission, with outspoken criticism of Turkey's bid voiced by two commissioners and concerns held by at least four more. Yesterday, Cemil Cicek, Turkey's justice minister, said in a newspaper interview that the government would take criticism of the adultery proposal into account in the debate on changes to the penal code tomorrow. He said "deficiencies" in the draft changes would be removed, although he did not suggest that the adultery proposal would be dropped. Adultery was a crime in the Turkish penal code until it was deleted for men in 1996 and for women in 1998. Some observers in Ankara said the attempt to reinstate it as a crime was being led by religious conservatives in Mr Erdogan's broad-based Justice and Development party. who believe that social reform has gone far enough in the blizzard of constitutional changes adopted to meet EU entry criteria. http://news.ft.com/cms/s/4fbfb16e-0523-11d...000e2511c8.html BTW: What happened to widely advertised secularism in Turkey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 It is the right time for another military coup d'etat in Turkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boghos Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 Turkey is a defacto military dictatorship despite all the lip service paid to democracy. I think the military have recognized that being in the background is much more comfortable than being on the forefront. The military are very popular in Turkey and were they running the show directly, I am not sure this would be the case. In any case, Turkey in the EU may just mean two things: the EU will desintegrate (and this is not a crazy Armenian theory, I will go into more detail in the future) or the most likley, wishful thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 In any case, Turkey in the EU may just mean two things: the EU will desintegrate (and this is not a crazy Armenian theory, I will go into more detail in the future) or the most likley, wishful thinking. Yes - please do elaborate. Is this due to a demographic issue (and resultant ease of migration [from Turkey] for work etc), or to the poor Turkish economy, or due to expected political rows, a combination of the above, some things different or what? ...am curious as to your thinking on this one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 I very much agree with Boghos. Europe and Turkey are two very, very different worlds. I don't think that Americans would ever understand this. I don't think that British are European either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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