Armenian Nobility

[Armen]

May I ask a question? If nobility is in achievements rather than lineage, then why is there an attempt to revive the nobility as you put it, taking it so seriously as to sieve through documents to verify that claimants are indeed of noble lineage? What purpose does this serve? How is this going to benefit anyone? Is the aim to take the example of any other country where the nobility take the role of patrons of this or that?

My understanding...

 

The nobility (Kshatrians in Indian Vedic casts) are those who are destined by their mental setting to defend the territory, which they identify as motherland and have the necesaary level of consciousness to organize the other people. Be they soldiers, clergy, scientists or whatever, they are programmed for securing the territory where their other countrymen live. Armenia's noble cast has been virtually non existent for some centuries because there was no time to reproduce it. The intensity of conquests in Armenia's geographical location prevented this reproduction for centuries. Our nobility (in my categirozation of it above) has been reproduced once again under the Russian Empire, when many decendants of Syuniq and Karabagh meliqs, as well as the Armenian nobility of Tiflis joined the Russian army.

This is why we had large number of Armenian military (some very high ranking) in Russia and almost none outside Russia.

 

I don't know how the web-site sees its goals but the revival of the nobility as I understand it, is the revival of the mentality of the Kshatri. And that's crucial for any nation.

Edited August 7, 2004 by ArmenSarg

[Sasun]

Armen, I was also thinking about the Hindu Ksahtriya cast. The Vedic ideals of a Kshatriya is to be the servant of the people in the position of rulers and warriors. If necessary, the job of a Kshatriya is to die for the people. That is a very noble ideal indeed. Therefore, whoever will do it I will call him a nobleman. Our noblemen are those volunteers who died for us and who are willing to die for us, I am all for giving them even noble titles. To go to blood lineage is to deviate from the ideal and go after superficial things. If a Kshatriya is not available where he is supposed to be that means he is dead. Edited August 3, 2004 by Sasun

[Armen]

Nobility is about origins.

 

If nobility is only about origins there is no use to discuss it. "Nature rests on children". This is as old as this world.

 

The Armenian nobility is not a substitute or some sort of enemy of the Armenian Church. The coat-of-arms of the Union of the Armenian Noblemen has a Christian cross on it. Many prominent Armenian Christians were or are of noble origin: Hovhannes Mandakuni, many generations of Armenian catholicoi of Aghvank, Rusas Rushduni (contemporary American theology expert of Armenian origin). These facts show that there is no competition of any sort between the Church and the nobility.

 

Church effectively substituted nobility as the leading social institution to govern Armenia. I don't mean Christianity could not be a simbol and faith for the noblemen. However, Armenian Church had numerous bertayers as well, one example being the Catholicos Petros Getadardz who sold the young King Gagik to the Bizantine. For me this is the most disgusting page in the history of Armenian Church. That is why I think that Armenian nobility should have become Armenian Church's enemy at some point, like King Pap did, and decrease its power.

 

 

Edit: Fixed the quotes

Edited August 4, 2004 by vava

[Verbatum Nobile]

I don't think we need to find people who come from noble families.

 

"We" meaning whom? Those who understand the importance of noble values and who see the virtue in reviving them will feel the need in national nobility. Those who are indefferent will remain indifferent to the whole concept. I do not see the problem.

 

Noble acts are what make one noble, not the family heritage.

 

If you read my pervious posting carefully, you would see these words in the preamble. What is the point of repeating them?

 

If we ever find them we need to strip them of their nobility.

 

"Wonderful" Bolshevik idea. May be used in yet another Communist manifesto.

 

I remember a few years back a certain taxi driver from Spain with the last name of Bagratuni showed up in Armenia claiming to be from the royal family. He was thinking of becoming a king of Armenia 

 

Actually there was one other Bagratuni visiting Armenia with royal ambitions, this one was a journalist from Bulgaria.

 

I wonder how many "king Bagratunis" can picture one's rich imagination? There were no taxi driver or a journalist from Bulgaria. There was a journalist from Poland whose last name appeared to be Bagratuni. And this person with his claims was never perceived seriously by anyone. He is not even capable of supporting his claims of origin and therefore is not a member of the Union of Armenian Noblemen. Armenia is a republic – no one seriously questions that. Nobility has a cultural, traditional and genealogical value, but not as a political or administrative power. For your information, the Union of the Armenian Noblemen is a non-partisan and non-political organization. The UAN's focus is in the study of the history and traditions and making them useful for today's Armenia and Artsakh. There are no political or any other claims.

 

Most of our historical nobility have abandoned their lands and people and left for comfortable places, that is not at all a noble act.

 

Again, I would call for more responsible statements. Most of Armenian noblemen remained in Armenia and Artsakh and fought for independence. Generals Loris-Melikov, Daniel-bek Pirumian, Silikian (Slkuni) in Armenia, earlier meliks Hasan-Jalalian, Melik-Beglarians, Melik-Israelians, Melik Atabekians, Melik-Avanians in Artsakh - all made valuable contribution to the Armenians' fight for political independence. And even those few noblemen, who left for Russia or other countries - the Lazarevs (Lazarians), the Argutinski-Dolgorukovs etc - used their own resources and political connections to protect the interests of the Armenian people. Please, learn the facts before making any far-reaching claims.

 

Our noblemen are those volunteers who died for us and who are willing to die for us

 

Nobody questions that. There are legal and moral concepts of nobility. I also have no doubt that the moral concept is truly important for our nation. But why do we need to put an artificial contradiction between the two? Historically there were never contradictions between these two concepts. A simple Armenian peasant and lord Vardan Mamikonian were fighting side by side against the invading Persian army. They both committed noble acts by the nature of their deeds. What is the problem these days? The Communist legacy?

 

May I ask a question?

 

Actually, you asked several questions. But I will be happy to answer them since they sound much more balanced compared to some others' comments.

 

If nobility is in achievements rather than lineage, then why is there an attempt to revive the nobility as you put it, taking it so seriously as to sieve through documents to verify that claimants are indeed of noble lineage?

 

Because this matters to the descendents of those noble families. Do you suggest to strip them of a natural right and interest to the lineage?

 

What purpose does this serve?

 

So many persons around the world are interested in their ancestry, in their genealogy. It is part of Socratic "Know thyself". People want to know their roots, their history and the origins of their family.

 

How is this going to benefit anyone?

 

By knowing that there were nobles among your ancestors many will perceive this as a challenge. I have seen many people completely changing their lifestyle, attitudes, becoming more responsible, and developing a sense of duty before the nation. There are so many purposes that the nobility, its values and traditions, can serve.

 

Is the aim to take the example of any other country where the nobility take the role of patrons of this or that?

 

Not at all. We are driven by our own national interests and pursue national goals. Nobility is simply a part of our history, part of our traditions and part of today's Armenian society. Knowing our history, traditions and society is important for our identity - both national and personal.

 

Since you spoke about other countries, I would invite you to study how the British, the Russians or even the Georgians perceive the importance of nobility. Most of this negative and aggressive criticism of national nobility would be impossible in those societies. Even nations that formally never had any nobility are for some reason developing that concept and persuading the world of their "noble origins". One good example is the Azeris, who make every effort to steal and nationalize Armenian noble families. The Internet is full of Azeri propaganda lies about Turkic origins of Artsakh melikdoms. Why do their do that? The answer is simple: stealing our nobility they steal a huge chunk of our history and traditions and, thus, get historical claims to the Armenian lands. I truly regret that many from the Armenian society appear to be so politically immature and unable to see the world behind little petty egocentrism.

 

Again, a general comment: please make an effort to learn the history of your people and the true facts. Also, try to abstain from colorful expressions and extremist suggestions. I think this forum should not be confused with Bolshevik party sessions or Tamerlane's military council. Ignorance or intransigence were never virtues.

[Verbatum Nobile]

Church effectively substituted nobility as the leading social institution to govern Armenia. I don't mean Christianity could not be a simbol and faith for the noblemen. However, Armenian Church had numerous bertayers as well, one example being the Catholicos Petros Getadardz who sold the young King Gagik to the Bizantine. For me this is the most disgusting page in the history of Armenian Church. That is why I think that Armenian nobility should have become Armenian Church's enemy at some point, like King Pap did, and decrease its power.

 

You are right about Getadardz; he collaborated with the Byzantine throne and contributed to the fall of Ani. But history does not know "should"s or "must have"s. The fact is that the Armenian nobility is as diverse as the Armenian people. Among the nobility as well there could be - and were - different opinions and attitudes regarding the role and place of the Church. Some royal and hereditary nobles - such as king Pap - were resisting the growing powers of the Armenian Church. But the majority of the Armenian nobles were supporting the Church and advocating for the growth of its role in the Armenian society. As a result, just like regarding the foreign policy during Vardananq-Vasakanq, the positions of the Armenian nobles vis-a-vis the Church were as diverse as those of the Armenian people in general.

[Sasun]

Verbatum Nobile,

 

Nobility has a cultural, traditional and genealogical value, but not as a political or administrative power.

Yes, and nothing more.

 

I have nothing against studying the history of Armenian nobility, or the study of Armenian peasants (we don't see the Armenians from peasant lineage creating a "Union of Armenian Peasants"). What I don't accept is the undue importance that the Union of Nobility is giving to itself. I am sure that noble values exist outside of them, and I am sure they are not any more noble than peasants, electricians or teachers. They are nothing more than a history. If you fail to see my points above then I have nothing to add.

 

By the way, there was a Bagratuni Spanish taxi driver, if you don't know it doesn't mean that it is imagination. The other Bagratuni, my memory may not serve well and he may indeed be Polish and not Bulgarian. But whether or not he was taken seriously doesn't change the fact that he existed, having the same serious ideas about his lineage like some other noble families of today.

 

As to the historical noble families of Armenia, elementary knowledge of the Armenian history shows that in several crucial times most of our noble families were the cause of our misfurtunes. They cared about their lands, power and independence. They had their own ambitions of kingdom, they were disobedient and revolted againt the king. They did not care about the kingdom, its people and its future. To me, all these indicate that they were not noble in the true sense of the word. After Armenia lost its indpendence they left Armenia over the years and centuries to come (that is why they can't be found in Armenia). Davit Bek and others were different, and not the majority. I am not a historian, and I would need to do some research to give you all the names and dates and the events proving my point. However, I think I will not do it because everyone knows those basic things.

 

Regarding stripping of nobility, you have to differentiate figurative speech from Bohshevik calls. I am not advocating any actions against those people (how do you imagine stripping of the nobility could happen anyway?).

 

To sum up, the noble families today are not any more important than other families, and when they imply that they are somehow important for present day Armenia it means they have exaggerated self-importance. It is obvious that they are projecting themselves outside of the study of history.

[Armen]

But history does not know "should"s or "must have"s.

 

Well, at least we can draw some lesson and treat our Church in present days accordingly.

 

But the majority of the Armenian nobles were supporting the Church and advocating for the growth of its role in the Armenian society.

 

I would not say that this is a true statement for all period of Armenian history. Moreover, there were massive anti-Church movements like Pavlikians, which included the nobility.

[Sasun]

I think everyone will agree that in all countries there were good nobility and bad nobilility, as in good rulers and bad rulers. In Armenian history it seems that somehow the rulers had more faults than in other countries. Nevertheless, of course we had good rulers and heroic noblemen. If we have to praise, appreciate and remember the historical significance of particular noble people for their truly noble acts then it is a good thing. But to give all nobility the same praise is very unfair, it means to forget the blunders of many of them just because they were from noble families.

[Verbatum Nobile]

I also would like to comment on this:

 

The nobility (Kshatrians in Indian Vedic casts) are those who are destined by their mental setting to defend the territory, which they identify as motherland and have the necesaary level of consciousness to organize the other people. Be they soldiers, clergy, scientists or whatever, they are programmed for securing the territory where their other countrymen live.

 

I think, part of the misunderstanding is caused by the confusion of different perceptions and, subsequently, unrealistic expectations.

 

I hope the basic matters are clarified by now: the noblemen are neither angels nor saints. They represent a part of the society and therefore are as diverse, good or bad, as the rest of the society. In this regard, our expectations also should be realistic. Otherwise, singling out one group of the society - be it the nobles, the clergymen, the intelligentsia or the liberals - and scapegoating it for all our historical mistakes sound pretty much as ideological extremism. I think our society should get rid of extreme views and demonstrate maturity in attitudes and judgment.

 

As to the historical parallels, the Armenian nobility and Vedic casts indeed have some things in common. But there are many differences as well. First of all, Vedic casts are exclusive by definition and nature. If you are not a member of the upper cast you may forget your hope to ever become one. On the other hand, the Armenian nobility was never an exclusive stratum of the society. Our nobility was always open. Those who were patriotic, dedicated to the country, wise and brave - in other words noble in their thoughts and deeds - could be and were often raised to the noble estate by special decrees of the Armenian monarchs.

 

In Vedic and even contemporary India the divisions between the casts were largely perceived as "superior" and "inferior". The brahmins and kshatryas were seen as "superior" and "pure", whereas the other two casts - the vayshyas and particularly the shudras - were considered as "inferior" and "dirty". Moreover, there was a huge segment of Dravidic population that was treated as the chandalas, the "untouchables". The Armenian society, on the contrary, never had such a tradition of seeing the nobles as the "clean" ones or peasants as the "dirty" ones. Moreover, unlike in Russia or Georgia, the Armenian society never knew serfdom with its ugly forms.

 

These and other differences between the Armenian traditional nobility and the Vedic and late Indian sects clearly demonstrate that nobility and casts are different categories and phenomena. Similarities between the two should not be exaggerated.

[Verbatum Nobile]

I think everyone will agree that in all countries there were good nobility and bad nobilility, as in good rulers and bad rulers. In Armenian history it seems that somehow the rulers had more faults than in other countries. Nevertheless, of course we had good rulers and heroic noblemen. If we have to praise, appreciate and remember the historical significance of particular noble people for their truly noble acts then it is a good thing. But to give all nobility the same praise is very unfair, it means to forget the blunders of many of them just because they were from noble families.

I fully agree. The fact that Armenia lost 90% of its historical Homeland is a national tragedy, which every segment of the Armenian society is responsible for. And yes, nobility has its significant share of its responsibility. Immaturity of some Armenian kings and narrow-mindedness of some noblemen might have sometimes served a bad service to our nation.

 

As for today, the Union of the Armenian Noblemen is dedicated to the revival of the best of our traditions and customs. The truth is that one simple peasant defending his Fatherland and dying as a result is worth of hundreds of noblemen who did nothing for the country and nation. Therefore, the fact of noble origin does not automatically bring any praise with it. It brings only great responsibility. The praise must be achieved by deeds.

[Sasun]

As for today, the Union of the Armenian Noblemen is dedicated to the revival of the best of our traditions and customs.

If that is the case then of course it is a useful thing

[Stormig]

V.N., I can't understand if it is aimed to reclaim members of these families in nobility (like the ones who go for a change of lifestyle, demeanour, and all) in their "innocent play" or to really revive the nobility so it is once again alive and functional, and by that I mean they actually play active roles - which seems bizarre to me with the absence of a monarch, as this absence would mean no noble family falls out of status and is just there forever until extinct and then no "commoner" family rises to the status of "noble" and somehow the family members miss out on the "opportunity" for appreciation and furtherance of contributions. Just what among these (or outside of these) is important for the noble families concerned?

This reminds me of some of the Caucasian (Circassian, Chechen, etc.) noble families who still maintain their status in their communities in the diaspora, most notably in places like Syria and Jordan. Never having been suppressed, nearly a century and a half later, they are still recognised as such. But in the end, as you say, they are just any family. I was wondering if it is the familiarity, a sense of continuum, that delights the people around them, which makes it "special" for them?

[Armen]

Armen, I was also thinking about the Hindu Ksahtriya cast. The Vedic ideals of a Kshatriya is to be the servant of the people in the position of rulers and warriors. If necessary, the job of a Kshatriya is to die for the people. That is a very noble ideal indeed. Therefore, whoever will do it I will call him a nobleman. Our noblemen are those volunteers who died for us and who are willing to die for us, I am all for giving them even noble titles. To go to blood lineage is to deviate from the ideal and go after superficial things. If a Kshatriya is not available where he is supposed to be that means he is dead.

Yup, that's correct.

Edited August 4, 2004 by ArmenSarg

[HOB]

Did you read this regarding Bagratuni?

 

http://projects.ascp.am/history/vedi3/1.htm

[Nakharar]

This discussion about Armenian nobility is a little too late. It's nothing but a reminder that we have missed out on all the important stages of development starting from the Renaissance. Don't get me wrong, we were a victim of circumstances. We shouldn't compare the nobility east of the Balkans with that of the Europeans. A Montenegran or Albanian clansman or Caucasian warlord would be seen as the equivalent of the European nobility, but to claim it as such would be a farce at best. Whatever you think of the concept of nobility, the European version especially after the end of the Medieval age and the demise of serfdom contributed immensely to the bourgeoisie, even though indirectly. Not to mention their contribution as patrons to the arts. Whereas the "nobility" in the east was used as a pretense for looting and pillaging the population under the tutelage of a master, the European aristocracy could be seen as a harbinger of a system of checks and balances against the excesses of the monarch. I don't think that there was such a thing at all in other parts, on the contrary they were in complicity with their guardians. For a middle class to flourish you would probably need a middleman to protect you for a short while against the excesses of the ruler. The aristocracy served their purpose well until the bourgeoisie could stand on their own feet. Talking about Armenian nobility will only inflame our inferiority complex.

[Verbatum Nobile]

I am pleased to see that the discussions become more balanced and mature, with less colorful expressions and extremist views.

 

I cannot say that I completely disagree with the last few postings. Certainly, there are shortcomings, limitations, difficulties and some problems associated with the revival of the nobility. However, one important aspect must be kept in mind: today nobody from the UAN claims any special privileges, any powers, any formerly lost estate or property. Today's nobility is comprised of regular human beings, who just appear to care about their family genealogy, history and traditions, and are willing to contribute to the contemporary Armenian society by unveiling this past and making it serve our national goals. In what way? That is being discussed within the Union. There were/are a number of very interesting initiatives and projects, some of which are available on the official site of the UAN.

 

Also, please note that the UAN operates in Armenia since 1992. Its activities are in line with the Constitution and laws of Armenia. And the ultimate purpose of the Union is to serve the Armenian statehood and the people. This means that the whole nature of the Union of the Armenian Noblemen is to provide services to the nation, not claim services from the "commoners". There are no "commoners" in Armenia. We are all equal citizens.

 

Having said that, I believe I partially reflected on this comment:

 

Talking about Armenian nobility will only inflame our inferiority complex.

 

I truly regret if someone has inferiority complex. What really surprises me, is that people rarely have inferiority complex when it comes to seeing someone more knowledgeable, more educated, more dedicated to the Armenian cause. No complexes there - we do not care. But once there is a descendant of a noble family, who appears to be interested in his/her roots, we immediately see a long line of angry and aggressive personalities demonstrating their inferiority complex. I wish it was the opposite. I wish we were keener to match the educated, smart and patriotic people and care less about who comes with whatever roots.

 

I was wondering if it is the familiarity, a sense of continuum, that delights the people around them, which makes it "special" for them?

 

Storming, please show me the exact place in here or on the official site of the UAN where there is any mentioning of nobility being so "special". On the contrary, I keep repeating the word "regular". Persons of noble origin are regular human beings, like any other member of the society.

 

Talking about "specialness". Every social grouping may be seen as special within certain parameters based on its role in the society. Clergy is special when it comes to the religious spirituality, army is special when it comes to defending of the country, and scientists are special when it comes to research and studies. Nobility...? Well, if you wish, it may also be seen as special; special not in the sense of others bowing and praising it, but in a sense of reviving the roots and the best traditions and customs of our ancestors. I still do not see what is wrong about learning the history of your family and trying to match all the good that was done by your ancestors.

 

Plus, it is more than just focusing on your family's past and present. Here are two examples of ideas and initiatives that the Union of the Armenian Noblemen would like to implement in future:

- restoration and maintenance of the tomb of the Armenian royal dynasty Arshakuni in the town of Aghdzq,

- humanitarian ball for children of the azatamartiks (freedom-fighters).

 

I still do not see what is wrong about doing good things, be it under the umbrella of nobility, clergy or military.

Edited August 4, 2004 by Verbatum Nobile

[Stormig]

Storming, please show me the exact place in here or on the official site of the UAN where there is any mentioning of nobility being so "special". On the contrary, I keep repeating the word "regular". Persons of noble origin are regular human beings, like any other member of the society.

Allow me to clarify: when I said special due to familiarity or continuum, I meant from the "commoner's" perspective, how the public in general associates with nobility. There are those that will be nobility-averse and then there will be those (a majority, I think) who will not mind and in fact look upon them with certain fondness - but why, and are expectations and disappointment justified at whatever stage of this revival? This aspect would be part and parcel of the revival and functionality of the nobility.

[Arpa]

Aznvakan Xosq aka Verbatum Nobile, assuming you are this;

Grand Duke Gevorg Pirumyan.

Do you know who this is? http://www.duke.org/biography.html

Is your org a mirror image of his?

Do you remember when a few years ago an certain self proclaimed Georgian (i cannot find the story at this time) caliming to be of the Bagrationi lineage went to Tbilisi to claim his throne?

Were you involved in that movement when people on the streets of Yerevan were approacjing unsuspecting passersby and asking them if the had "papers", i.e. documents to prove their noble lineage? (I cannot find reference to that either).

In other words, if I cannot prove my noble lineage, me with a humble and lowly -ian surname, with no-uni, -onts, -ents surname will be excluded from your organization?

I really feel for all those Armenians who have surnames like Cholakian, Topalian, Chirkinian(ugly), Stambolian, Haleplian, Shamlian, Sivaslian, Vanlian, Elchibekian, Hakhverdian sorry Nairi , Vratsian, Beshiktashlian, Izmirlian, Zumbajian(Petros Turian), Chbukiarian (Daniel Varuzhan), Demir-ji-bash-ian, Arabian, Ingilizian, Frankian, Missirlian, Hintlian, Afrikian, Habeshian...?

 

Who,else?

 

Will I be eligible if I change my (nick)name to Arpuni? How about Bagratuni? Will the Vratsis let me? Or will the Jews? Since many believe that the Bagratunis were Jewish (hogwash!! We may come to that under a separate topic, except that if it were so how come there are not Jews with that surname?)

So. If I understand correctly, we want to return the nation to the era of aristocracy and nobility. Have we decided who will be king? Obviously Robert is out since he has no noble lineage , neither in his given name nor in his surname of Kochar, a Turkic word meaning "nomad". How about Levon? More likely? Since we had kings by that name.

 

If I were you I would first armenianize all those names above before starting a puritan aristocratic etnos.

 

Let us hear your take!!

Edited August 4, 2004 by Arpa

[Teutonic Knight]

Why aren't the most important nobilities of Armenian origin such as the Phokades included?

Or is your definition of an Armenian nobleman someone who has to be Persianized and non-Chalcedonian?

Edited August 4, 2004 by Teutonic Knight

[Verbatum Nobile]

Aznvakan Xosq aka Verbatum Nobile, assuming you are this;

Grand Duke Gevorg Pirumyan.

 

You assumption is wrong. I am not Gevorg Pirumian. Mr. Pirumian is academician and university professor. With due respect, he would not spend his time discussing serious matters with persons who - like you - take everything so immaturely. One example:

 

Do you know who this is? http://www.duke.org/biography.html

Is your org a mirror image of his?

 

I assume there may be many sites in the Internet where your extravagant sense of humor can be of some value.

 

Do you remember when a few years ago an certain self proclaimed Georgian (i cannot find the story at this time) caliming to be of the Bagrationi lineage went to Tbilisi to claim his throne?

 

Before sharing your views with such intransigent certainty I suggest you carefully read what was discussed above. This issue was raised and closed. In every society there are mentally unstable personalities. Right now, as we speak, there may be dozens of "commoners" claiming to be “the president of Armenia” or “Pope of Rome”. Do you suggest treating every single person and organization in the world with suspicion just because some isolated personalities may be mentally unstable? I think your whole attitude is based on a quite shaky ground.

 

Were you involved in that movement when people on the streets of Yerevan were approacjing unsuspecting passersby and asking them if the had "papers", i.e. documents to prove their noble lineage? (I cannot find reference to that either).

 

No, I was not. Moreover, I have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest next time you better base your accusations on real facts, if you want to be taken seriously. Otherwise, "I know nothing. I have no clue. I cannot find references. But I strongly protest!" - this approach is not serious.

 

In other words, if I cannot prove my noble lineage, me with a humble and lowly -ian surname, with no-uni, -onts, -ents surname will be excluded from your organization?

 

Let us see. What are your chances to be included in the Presidium of the National Academy of Sciences or to become a member of the Supreme Council of Holy See of Echmiadzin? I suspect they are quite limited. Why doesn't this bother you as much as your membership in our Union?

 

Still, to answer your inappropriately posed question, there are various degrees of membership in the UAN. There are associated members who, while not being descendants of noble ancestry, are intellectuals genuinely interested in our history and traditions. So, the UAN is open to everybody. But in your particular case, should you really be interested in becoming a member of the UAN, I suggest you change your sense of humor and attitudes first.

 

I really feel for all those Armenians who have surnames like Cholakian, Topalian, Chirkinian(ugly), Stambolian, Haleplian, Shamlian, Sivaslian, Vanlian, Elchibekian, Hakhverdian  sorry Nairi , Vratsian, Beshiktashlian, Izmirlian, Zumbajian(Petros Turian), Chbukiarian (Daniel Varuzhan), Demir-ji-bash-ian, Arabian, Ingilizian, Frankian, Missirlian, Hintlian, Afrikian, Habeshian...?

 

...What is this list? Feel like whom? ...My last name also ends with "-ian". Many of the Armenian noble last names are of non-Armenian (including Turkic or Arabic) origin. What is your point? …I still see a problem with knowing the subject you are talking about.

 

Will I be eligible if I change my (nick)name to Arpuni? How about Bagratuni? Will the Vratsis let me? Or will the Jews? Since many believe that the Bagratunis were Jewish (hogwash!! We may come to that under a separate topic, except that if it were so how come there are not Jews with that surname?)

 

You will not be eligible not because of your past or present last names, but because of your attitude. Plus, the UAN does not accept any form of racism, including anti-Semitism. Please discuss this matter with those who share your concerns. I am not one of them.

 

So. If I understand correctly, we want to return the nation to the era of aristocracy and nobility.

 

Here is the problem. You have not read the materials in the site, you know very little about nobility and its origins, but you have not problem sharing your ignorance mixed up with aggressive and baseless accusations.

 

The answer is: no, we do not want to return the nation to the era of aristocracy. We believe that democratic republic is the best form of governance. And we believe that all strata of the society - including the nobility - can make their contribution to the strengthening of Armenia. Also, I personally believe that the best way of achieving it would be to do something good in reality, not sit in the forums day and nigh and spread around aggressive accusations and extremist views.

 

Have we decided who will be king? Obviously Robert is out since he has no noble lineage , neither in his given name nor in his surname of Kochar, a Turkic word meaning "nomad". How about Levon? More likely? Since we had kings by that name.

 

Once again, I am sure that someone somewhere else may appreciate your sense of humor.

 

If I were you I would first armenianize all those names above before starting a puritan aristocratic etnos.

 

But since you are not quite me, I prefer avoiding yet another set of revolutionist and highly questionable ideas.

 

P.S.: My comment about more balanced discussions appeared to be premature.

Edited August 4, 2004 by Verbatum Nobile

[Verbatum Nobile]

Why aren't the most important nobilities of Armenian origin such as the Phokades included?

Or is your definition of an Armenian nobleman someone who has to be Persianized and non-Chalcedonian?

Dear Teutonic Knight,

 

I would appreciate any additional information that you may have on the Phokades or other noblemen of Armenian origin. Please send this information by e-mail to the addresses that were given in the Contacts.

 

Thank you in advance.

[shaunt]

JSAS #3:

 

Hewsen, Robert H. In Search of Armenian Nobility: Five Armenian Families of the Ottoman Empire, 93-118.

 

NAASR:

 

Volume II, Number 1: Spring/Summer 1985 The Bagratids in Armenia and Georgia

by David Marshall Lang

 

I only post this because earlier today I accidently found the JSAS article while looking through the Armenian journals at Young Research Library (UCLA). I'll check it out tomorrow after I'm done with my final.

 

And I might have read the Lang article also, because his name sounds very familiar. Either that, or some other piece by him.

 

PS: We have quite an assortment of books on Armenian issues in general.

[Accelerated]

ok mr nobleman,

 

Indeed Im not an expert in geneology or Armenian history, and I dont claim to be. I do know a little bit of Armenian and general history and have based on opinion on what I have read. On your part, in all the long posts, you are still yet to prove that "The nobility traditionally played a mobilizing and leading role in the Armenian society, and greatly contributed to the preservation of Armenian national values, promotion of patriotism and the struggle of Armenians people for freedom.... " is fact. Point me to a book or link on the net, and if you are right I will happily apologise for whatever grief I have caused you...

 

I am also preparing a long post with specific arguments but its taking too much time. I will consider completing it later, depending on your response....

 

Don't get me wrong, we were a victim of circumstances. We shouldn't compare the nobility east of the Balkans with that of the Europeans. A Montenegran or Albanian clansman or Caucasian warlord would be seen as the equivalent of the European nobility, but to claim it as such would be a farce at best. Whatever you think of the concept of nobility, the European version especially after the end of the Medieval age and the demise of serfdom contributed immensely to the bourgeoisie, even though indirectly. Not to mention their contribution as patrons to the arts. Whereas the "nobility" in the east was used as a pretense for looting and pillaging the population under the tutelage of a master, the European aristocracy could be seen as a harbinger of a system of checks and balances against the excesses of the monarch. I don't think that there was such a thing at all in other parts, on the contrary they were in complicity with their guardians.

 

Thank You

Edited August 5, 2004 by Accelerated

[vava]

Verbatim, welcome to HyeForum. I hope you post here often.

 

I have a question too - and I think i'm not alone, judging by the reaction of some members. You have mentioned several times in your posts, how your organization wishes to re-establish Armenian nobility in order to 'revive the roots and the best traditions and customs of our ancestors'. What are these 'best traditions'? Which customs would you like to revive?

 

Our nobility of the past often served our country by acting as military, and/or political forces. If you are withdrawing from the political to more artistic and purely historical domains, are there not already active organizations within these domains (that BTW, could use your efforts tangibly) rather than spending time/resources to revive artificial social structure? Please don't take this as being accusatory - I'm merely curious.

 

One more question, how do you plan on achieving your objectives as an organization (to serve the state & it's people), if you're entirely non-partisan, and not involved in the political and/or socio-economic development of the Repulblic?

 

Finally, I hope that you are not a sensitive type - in due time, you will understand the humour of (and likely laugh with) members like Arpa, who bring an incredible wealth of knowledge (and wit) to our little forum. Once again, welcome.

Edited August 5, 2004 by vava

[Anileve]

I have a question too - and I think i'm not alone, judging by the reaction of some members. You have mentioned several times in your posts, how your organization wishes to re-establish Armenian nobility in order to 'revive the roots and the best traditions and customs of our ancestors'. What are these 'best traditions'? Our nobility of the past often served our country by acting as military, and/or political forces. If you are withdrawing to more artistic and purely historical domains, are there not already active organizations within these domains (that BTW, could use your efforts tangibly) rather than spending time/resources to revive artificial social structure?

That sizzled.