Verbatum Nobile

Honorable gentlemen On this optimistic note I would like to thank you for your hospitality and everyone for the positive criticism and valuable suggestions that you had. I hope some time in future I will get another chance to discuss these and other matters relating to Armenia, Artsakh and Diaspora on HyeForum. Please accept assurances of my highest consideration. Et bonne chance!

Vava, a promise is a promise. Time to reply to your comments. First, I would like to thank you again for your hospitality. The only think I truly regret is the lack of time against so many different projects and ideas that need to be materialized in limited timeframes. In these circumstances, regrettably, I will not be able to contribute more to this topic in the near future. However, I very much hope that my comments and clarifications were helpful and explained some of the views that are expressed on the official site of the Union of the Armenian Noblemen. I will try to give a bit simplistic answer to your question, although in reality the situation is more complicated. Well, I guess I will not discover the wheel if I say that we all have some image of nobility. Despite some one-sided criticism, I believe that most of us see very clear association between the nobility and the concept of being noble. I would like to emphasize that in our materials on the site we speak not about any traditions and customs, but about the BEST ones. Honesty, sense of honor, good manners, good education, sense of duty, first of all patriotic duty – these are some of the traditions and values that we can see in our history. There was a special Code of Honor of the Armenian Warriors (particularly officers, most of whom were noblemen) that is almost completely forgotten today: http://www.artsakhworld.com/Armen_Aivazian...Eng/Part12.html Being respectful – even in discussions like this one – paying attention to good manners, being polite – these and some other good traditions and values are being replaced by modern arrogance, base culture, and vulgarization of morale. For centuries the Armenian did care about their family history. People could list many names of their ancestors and knew the good and bad legacy of their forefathers. The world has changed much since then. With globalization and pop mass culture the danger of ignorance and assimilation is becoming more than evident. In these circumstances the UAN is making its humble efforts in preserving diamonds from our past in order to keep our future generations as dedicated and responsible before their nation and Fatherland. Your wording is very acceptable, Vava No need to justify your curiosity or skepticism. I will start from commenting on the artificial structure. The UAN is just one of the hundreds of public organizations. Today in Armenia there are small (almost microscopic) political parties with grandiose nation- and world-saving goals. There are religious organizations with suspicious and questionable targets. There are jokingly unserious unions, such as the union of the beer-likers of Armenia. Believe me, on this colorful background the Union of the Armenian Noblemen does not look artificial at all. We have very modest but realistic goals, and – unlike most of these organizations – we do not focus on ourselves, but have the ultimate goal to deliver something to the Armenian society and to strengthen Armenia and Artsakh. Generally, just like Sasun puts it, time is the best judge. The Union was organized in 1992 and is active up until now. Any artificial social organization would cease to exist after a few years of meaningless activity. But the UAN has expanded greatly and is now trying to involve more young people into its activities. We have contacts with other noble unions in other countries of Europe and the CIS. As to the first part of your question, we do not withdraw from politics or military. Many members of the UAN participate in other political parties or have military ranks. But we do not see the UAN as a political or military structure. Armenia has too many political parties and adding yet another one would not make sense. Besides, the UAN does not have any political agenda or program except for serving for the good of the Armenian people. The same stands for the military domain. The UAN believes that its contribution can be valuable particularly in the realms of history, traditions and values. I always believed that the most realistic targets are not the ones with nation-saving wording but those that are modest and up to the ground. I have already mentioned two projects that we have: the restoration of historical monuments (particularly, the one in Aghdzq) and humanitarian ball for the children of azatamartiks. Humanitarian programs (such as balls, concerts etc) are pretty much the core of other European nobility organizations. We have other ideas, such as assistance to the new settlers in Artsakh or special courses for the students of the military academy etc. But these are yet to be materialized. It very much depends whether we will find other partners interested in these or similar programs. I am not a sensitive type at all when it comes to good sense of humor. For example, I very much liked ArmenSarg’s joke (see above). However, while joking on some matters, we still should not lose the grasp of reality. And today’s he reality is harsh. We lost 90% of our historical Homeland, suffered the worst ever Genocide in the history of humanity and today are struggling to survive economically, politically and physically. We have the most difficult tasks before us: to protect today's Armenia, to defend Artsakh and to build a society that would develop values and morale for the future generations to regain all that was lost by our collective mistakes. I believe every single Armenian, regardless the place of residence, political, religious or other views, has an honorable duty to contribute to the realization of these national goals. I am also confident that no future can be built without knowing who we were and what is the best legacy of our ancestors. And it is in revealing this legacy of our best traditions and values and promoting their re-establishment in our society that the Union of the Armenian Noblemen sees its mission.

You dont need to be an expert at Armenian history to know how the Feudal system operated. A system of legalised banditry. Three comments on that. First, one must be an expert - i.e., know the matter he is discussing very well - before claiming that something relating to the matter is a lie. Strong words require solid knowledge. Secondly, no one at the UAN advocates a return to the feudal system. There is not a single word on return to feudalism or aristocratic rule in the UAN documents. Moreover, unlike in today’s Polish, Russian or Georgian nobility unions, we even do not have a single monarchist among the members of the UAN. Thirdly, I agree that there were lots of shortcomings in the feudal system. Of course, among the nobles there were many honest and honorable persons, but could also be true bandits. This, however, is very much the case in all social systems. Moreover, if you have a look at today’s so called "democracies", don’t you see the same legalized banditry? I do not want to criticize other countries, let us just have a look at today’s Armenia. The vast majority of members of Parliament are mafia and gangsters. Ministers are corrupt and the policemen are more criminal than some of the criminals. What is this to you if not a system of legalized banditry? One can criticize any social system. Just the criticism itself should not be one-sided and aggressive but be more balanced and constructive. And, once again, if you read the goals of the Union of the Armenian Noblemen, you will find no mention of restoring feudal system. We only want to restore the best traditions and values of our ancestors. And I do believe that these are worth restoring. Freedom from foreign invaders. And the names and specific examples were given. Of course, you may see it all in the your negative perspective. But most of the Armenians would still agree that Hayk, Vardan Mamikonian, gevorg Marzpetuni or Davit-bek were fighting for independence and not for their own oppression. Please do not vulgarize someone else's heroic acts if for some reason their honest deeds remain incomprehensible to your mindset. That was clear from your very first comments. However, under Bolshevism you would not have any chance to say half of what you have said here: the censorship would not permit. I also very much doubt that you would have your own computer with interenet access. But Bolshevism may be your choice and I respect that. I would only like to repeat that no one at the UAN plans to restore the feudal system. So the comparison between Bolshevism and Feudalism is pointless. The “i.e.” thing comes from you and is a product of your imagination. Nationalism was not mentioned in the UAN documents at all. This is yet another astonishing discovery on this forum. Read again the words of Hayk Nahapet or Vardan Mamikonian before the battles they fought and see if there is a sense of patriotism or not. You very much confuse notions and concepts: nobility with the restoration of feudalism, patriotism with nationalism. you said it yourself - do you think a historian in his right state of mind will criticise his financier? or not glorify his deeds? And considering that all Armenian history is written by the church and gentry or on their behalf, what should we expect from these works? I would be happy to consider alternative first-hand sources of information regarding our history. But I cannot base my judgment on your or others’ guesses and assumptions. constructions to strengthen the power of the lords - churches to unite their commoners, castles to add prestige and power, bridges to improve communications over their domain and so on..... By this approach you completely reject the history of Armenia and the value of the Armenian civilization. These were not accusations but comments based on your own words and comments. Your previous rejection of our cultural values well fits the commonly accepted definition of nihilism. I do not see any differences between your stance and Bolshevik ideology. Besides you expressed willingness to live under Bolshevik rule. As to Tamerlane, I still have an impression that you appreciate his barbaric deeds against Armenian noblemen more that all the best that was done by these noblemen. Again, I am not here to judge your position. I am here to make my position clear. And I still did not see your list of "bad Armenian nobility". Perhaps, because it appears to be much shorter than the “at-least-30%” that you were claiming. Being more balanced and mature in the judgment would allow you to avoid putting yourself into difficult positions in future. Even criticism – and especially criticism – need responsible wording.

This is better

Thank you Vava. I must apologize for not being able to reply to your questions today. They need more time and consideration than most of other comments. I promise to answer tomorrow.

Thanks brother Despite of being a "liar", "good for Tamerlane's BBQ", person that "must be exterminated", "self-proclaimed noblemen", ...I am trying to do my best

Thanks Storming. Support is very much needed and appreciated. Good question. The honest answer would be: not very well-known. Part of the problem is that the UAN is mostly comprised of aged people who still carry the family memories, but do not always have the energy to implement projects. The support of the younger generations is so much needed. But alas, most of the younger generation is more interested in Coca-Cola and BBQ rather than in the history, traditions and higher values. I do not want to sound too idealistic, but the fact is that with the death of family histories and traditions we irreversibly lose important and precious components of our traditional culture and history. I would even say we lose parts of our Armenianness. By opening the official website of the UAN we hope that the younger generations of Armenians around the world would have a chance to learn about this particular aspect of our past and maybe become more attached to our history and traditions.

Once again, where you people get these percentages? "...at least 30%", "more than 60%"... How do you calculate? And, to start with, how do you distinguish between Armenian and Persian names if you do not know old Persian and, I suspect, have limited knowledge of old Armenian (both Grabar and proto-Armenian)? This is a groundbreaking discovery. It would make sense if you contact the Institute of History of the Armenian Academy of Sciences and discuss the matter with them. As far as I know, the family endings "-uni" have nothing to do with Persians and are of Ararat (Urartian) origin. But I do not claim to be an expert in Armenian surnames. Do not quite understand what was so funny or surprising for you. The word “melik” derives from "malik", which in old Semitic languages of Mesopotamia means "lord", "prince", "king". Some Semitic tribes were worshipping pagan god Molok (or Moloch); his name meant the same "lord". Today’s Yezidis worship Malak-i-Tauz, “lord Tauz”, whose cult is rooted in the Semitic Near Eastern beliefs. If this still looks funny to you, I suggest you talk to professional linguists.

Thank you for your support, Sasun. That is the only logical attitude: to wait and see, and then judge by the deeds. If this is being discussed seriously, then I also would very much advocate for it. There is some positive international experience. After gaining its independence Ireland introduced a special policy of changing traditional Irish names that were forcefully "Anglicized", back into Gaelic/Irish. Fore example, many Irishmen with a last name Money got a chance to change it back to the original Mahoney. You also most probably know that Turkey - I think during Ataturk's rule - introduced surnames (before that Turks did not have surnames, just like Mongols today). Everyone could pick up a last name from a list of government-approved names. It worked. It would definitely make sense for the Armenians to consider going back to their traditional surnames. All Turkic or Arabic surnames can be at least translated or somehow changed into Armenian ones. But, while being a good idea that was already expressed by some scientists in Armenia, this is not the UAN's coup of tea. There are Armenian states - Armenia and Artsakh - and this should be their governments’ work. And in any case this requires serious and careful approach.

Verbatum Nobile or simply VN would do. Oh, but you do claim. Your entire posture here right from the onset was - and still is - based on the presumption that you know the history of Armenia to the extend and are so aware of all the sins of the Armenian nobility that can make strong accusations of “lies”. Regardless what you say, I am not here to judge your knowledge of history of Armenia. I am here to clarify whatever questions you or other participants may have regarding our site. And I wish these questions were put in a more mature and civilized manner. As to you grasp of the Armenian history, it very much depends on what exactly you have read and with what mindset. Many examples were already given above, in other posts. I will just repeat for you that the entire history of Armenia is my proof. King Artashes the Great, King Tigranes III the Great Artashesian, King Yervand Sakavakeats, Kings Trdat I and Trdat III, Lords Vardan Mamikonian, Gayl Vahan Mamikonian, King Ashot the Iron, King Gagik Artzruni, the kings of Bagratuni dynasty who built Ani, Kings Ruben and Levon, princes Zakarian, general Gevorg Marzpetuni, Davit-bek, diplomat Israel Ori – all these persons were nobles. All historical Armenian states - Kingdoms of Greater Armenia, Tzophk, Ani Kingdom, Kingdom of Vaspurakan, Kingdom of Ani, Kingdom of Kars, Kingdom of Syuniq, Cilician kingdom – these were all organized and ruled by the Armenian royal and noble houses. The Armenian alphabet became a reality because of the sponsorship of King Vramshapuh and a direct order from him to Sahak Partev and Mesrop Mashtots to create one. Khorenatsi’s “History of Armenia” was written because of the request and support from prince Sahak Bagratuni. Thousands of churches, castles, bridges, inns and palaces scattered throughout Armenia, …who do you think sponsored their construction? Garni was built by Trdat I, Geghard was built by princed Khaghbakian and Proshian, Dadivank was built by several noble houses, including the Dopians, Gandzasar was built by Hasan-Jalalians, Akhpat was built by Zakarian princes. Artsakh remained Armenian because of diplomatic, military, and financial contributions of meliks (princes) of Artsakh. Even when some Armenian noblemen were leaving Armenia, most of them were still trying to be helpful to the Armenian people. The Lazarians established an Institute of Armenian studies in Moscow. This building is now hosts the Armenian Embassy. Entire generations of Armenian noblemen were in the Russian imperial military service, most of them fighting for the independence of Armenia - see some of them here: http://www.petergen.com/publ/armkavge.shtml http://www.petergen.com/publ/armkavge2.shtml All that I listed above are just few examples of the deeds of the Armenian noblemen. Of course, all these were achieved with the participation and united efforts of the entire Armenian nation. Scientists, clergymen, peasants and craftsmen - all contributed to the strength of historical Armenia. But traditionally (at least up until the 18-19 centuries) the mobilizing and leading role belonged to the nobility… as it is rightly claimed on our site. And now let us see your list of “bad” Armenian nobility. Then we will compare the lists. What can you counter to the above? A couple of Vasaks and Shahnazars? …Are you serious? These kind of traitors existed in all classes of the Armenian society, including the "commoners". What does this prove? That the entire Armenian nation consists of betrayers? ...Or you seriously think that because of several irresponsible personalities we should give up the entire glory and wisdom of our past? …Is this a balanced view? You seriously think that I should waste my time in a forum and prove to every single nihilist the basics of our history? Please, make an effort and read your history not selectively focusing on a couple of “Vasaks”s or “Shahnazar”s, but in its entirety. Agathangelos “History of Armenia”, Movses Khorenatsi “History of Armenia”, Yeghishe “On Vardan’s War”, Hovhannes Draskhanakertsi “History of Armenia, Movses Kalankatuatsi “History of Aghvanq”, Kirakos Gandzaketsi “History of Armenia”… You know, I can go on and on. If you read these and hundreds of other books about the history of Armenia – not selectively, but in the entirety – you will get the right picture. Your apologies are hardly needed. The only grief that was caused is yet another proof for me that our nation does not really get mature in its judgment as time passes by. The whole …”discussion”... is so immature that making it even longer would hardly help. So, please do not bother much making your posts longer. Especially because - as I have said in the beginning - due to the workload I will not be in a position to participate in the forum more than one business week. And the week ends tomorrow.

Thank you Shaunt. Finally, useful information and comments on substance. I will try to get these books.

Dear Teutonic Knight, I would appreciate any additional information that you may have on the Phokades or other noblemen of Armenian origin. Please send this information by e-mail to the addresses that were given in the Contacts. Thank you in advance.

You assumption is wrong. I am not Gevorg Pirumian. Mr. Pirumian is academician and university professor. With due respect, he would not spend his time discussing serious matters with persons who - like you - take everything so immaturely. One example: I assume there may be many sites in the Internet where your extravagant sense of humor can be of some value. Before sharing your views with such intransigent certainty I suggest you carefully read what was discussed above. This issue was raised and closed. In every society there are mentally unstable personalities. Right now, as we speak, there may be dozens of "commoners" claiming to be “the president of Armenia” or “Pope of Rome”. Do you suggest treating every single person and organization in the world with suspicion just because some isolated personalities may be mentally unstable? I think your whole attitude is based on a quite shaky ground. No, I was not. Moreover, I have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest next time you better base your accusations on real facts, if you want to be taken seriously. Otherwise, "I know nothing. I have no clue. I cannot find references. But I strongly protest!" - this approach is not serious. Let us see. What are your chances to be included in the Presidium of the National Academy of Sciences or to become a member of the Supreme Council of Holy See of Echmiadzin? I suspect they are quite limited. Why doesn't this bother you as much as your membership in our Union? Still, to answer your inappropriately posed question, there are various degrees of membership in the UAN. There are associated members who, while not being descendants of noble ancestry, are intellectuals genuinely interested in our history and traditions. So, the UAN is open to everybody. But in your particular case, should you really be interested in becoming a member of the UAN, I suggest you change your sense of humor and attitudes first. ...What is this list? Feel like whom? ...My last name also ends with "-ian". Many of the Armenian noble last names are of non-Armenian (including Turkic or Arabic) origin. What is your point? …I still see a problem with knowing the subject you are talking about. You will not be eligible not because of your past or present last names, but because of your attitude. Plus, the UAN does not accept any form of racism, including anti-Semitism. Please discuss this matter with those who share your concerns. I am not one of them. Here is the problem. You have not read the materials in the site, you know very little about nobility and its origins, but you have not problem sharing your ignorance mixed up with aggressive and baseless accusations. The answer is: no, we do not want to return the nation to the era of aristocracy. We believe that democratic republic is the best form of governance. And we believe that all strata of the society - including the nobility - can make their contribution to the strengthening of Armenia. Also, I personally believe that the best way of achieving it would be to do something good in reality, not sit in the forums day and nigh and spread around aggressive accusations and extremist views. Once again, I am sure that someone somewhere else may appreciate your sense of humor. But since you are not quite me, I prefer avoiding yet another set of revolutionist and highly questionable ideas. P.S.: My comment about more balanced discussions appeared to be premature.

I am pleased to see that the discussions become more balanced and mature, with less colorful expressions and extremist views. I cannot say that I completely disagree with the last few postings. Certainly, there are shortcomings, limitations, difficulties and some problems associated with the revival of the nobility. However, one important aspect must be kept in mind: today nobody from the UAN claims any special privileges, any powers, any formerly lost estate or property. Today's nobility is comprised of regular human beings, who just appear to care about their family genealogy, history and traditions, and are willing to contribute to the contemporary Armenian society by unveiling this past and making it serve our national goals. In what way? That is being discussed within the Union. There were/are a number of very interesting initiatives and projects, some of which are available on the official site of the UAN. Also, please note that the UAN operates in Armenia since 1992. Its activities are in line with the Constitution and laws of Armenia. And the ultimate purpose of the Union is to serve the Armenian statehood and the people. This means that the whole nature of the Union of the Armenian Noblemen is to provide services to the nation, not claim services from the "commoners". There are no "commoners" in Armenia. We are all equal citizens. Having said that, I believe I partially reflected on this comment: I truly regret if someone has inferiority complex. What really surprises me, is that people rarely have inferiority complex when it comes to seeing someone more knowledgeable, more educated, more dedicated to the Armenian cause. No complexes there - we do not care. But once there is a descendant of a noble family, who appears to be interested in his/her roots, we immediately see a long line of angry and aggressive personalities demonstrating their inferiority complex. I wish it was the opposite. I wish we were keener to match the educated, smart and patriotic people and care less about who comes with whatever roots. Storming, please show me the exact place in here or on the official site of the UAN where there is any mentioning of nobility being so "special". On the contrary, I keep repeating the word "regular". Persons of noble origin are regular human beings, like any other member of the society. Talking about "specialness". Every social grouping may be seen as special within certain parameters based on its role in the society. Clergy is special when it comes to the religious spirituality, army is special when it comes to defending of the country, and scientists are special when it comes to research and studies. Nobility...? Well, if you wish, it may also be seen as special; special not in the sense of others bowing and praising it, but in a sense of reviving the roots and the best traditions and customs of our ancestors. I still do not see what is wrong about learning the history of your family and trying to match all the good that was done by your ancestors. Plus, it is more than just focusing on your family's past and present. Here are two examples of ideas and initiatives that the Union of the Armenian Noblemen would like to implement in future: - restoration and maintenance of the tomb of the Armenian royal dynasty Arshakuni in the town of Aghdzq, - humanitarian ball for children of the azatamartiks (freedom-fighters). I still do not see what is wrong about doing good things, be it under the umbrella of nobility, clergy or military.

I fully agree. The fact that Armenia lost 90% of its historical Homeland is a national tragedy, which every segment of the Armenian society is responsible for. And yes, nobility has its significant share of its responsibility. Immaturity of some Armenian kings and narrow-mindedness of some noblemen might have sometimes served a bad service to our nation. As for today, the Union of the Armenian Noblemen is dedicated to the revival of the best of our traditions and customs. The truth is that one simple peasant defending his Fatherland and dying as a result is worth of hundreds of noblemen who did nothing for the country and nation. Therefore, the fact of noble origin does not automatically bring any praise with it. It brings only great responsibility. The praise must be achieved by deeds.

I also would like to comment on this: I think, part of the misunderstanding is caused by the confusion of different perceptions and, subsequently, unrealistic expectations. I hope the basic matters are clarified by now: the noblemen are neither angels nor saints. They represent a part of the society and therefore are as diverse, good or bad, as the rest of the society. In this regard, our expectations also should be realistic. Otherwise, singling out one group of the society - be it the nobles, the clergymen, the intelligentsia or the liberals - and scapegoating it for all our historical mistakes sound pretty much as ideological extremism. I think our society should get rid of extreme views and demonstrate maturity in attitudes and judgment. As to the historical parallels, the Armenian nobility and Vedic casts indeed have some things in common. But there are many differences as well. First of all, Vedic casts are exclusive by definition and nature. If you are not a member of the upper cast you may forget your hope to ever become one. On the other hand, the Armenian nobility was never an exclusive stratum of the society. Our nobility was always open. Those who were patriotic, dedicated to the country, wise and brave - in other words noble in their thoughts and deeds - could be and were often raised to the noble estate by special decrees of the Armenian monarchs. In Vedic and even contemporary India the divisions between the casts were largely perceived as "superior" and "inferior". The brahmins and kshatryas were seen as "superior" and "pure", whereas the other two casts - the vayshyas and particularly the shudras - were considered as "inferior" and "dirty". Moreover, there was a huge segment of Dravidic population that was treated as the chandalas, the "untouchables". The Armenian society, on the contrary, never had such a tradition of seeing the nobles as the "clean" ones or peasants as the "dirty" ones. Moreover, unlike in Russia or Georgia, the Armenian society never knew serfdom with its ugly forms. These and other differences between the Armenian traditional nobility and the Vedic and late Indian sects clearly demonstrate that nobility and casts are different categories and phenomena. Similarities between the two should not be exaggerated.

You are right about Getadardz; he collaborated with the Byzantine throne and contributed to the fall of Ani. But history does not know "should"s or "must have"s. The fact is that the Armenian nobility is as diverse as the Armenian people. Among the nobility as well there could be - and were - different opinions and attitudes regarding the role and place of the Church. Some royal and hereditary nobles - such as king Pap - were resisting the growing powers of the Armenian Church. But the majority of the Armenian nobles were supporting the Church and advocating for the growth of its role in the Armenian society. As a result, just like regarding the foreign policy during Vardananq-Vasakanq, the positions of the Armenian nobles vis-a-vis the Church were as diverse as those of the Armenian people in general.

"We" meaning whom? Those who understand the importance of noble values and who see the virtue in reviving them will feel the need in national nobility. Those who are indefferent will remain indifferent to the whole concept. I do not see the problem. If you read my pervious posting carefully, you would see these words in the preamble. What is the point of repeating them? "Wonderful" Bolshevik idea. May be used in yet another Communist manifesto. I wonder how many "king Bagratunis" can picture one's rich imagination? There were no taxi driver or a journalist from Bulgaria. There was a journalist from Poland whose last name appeared to be Bagratuni. And this person with his claims was never perceived seriously by anyone. He is not even capable of supporting his claims of origin and therefore is not a member of the Union of Armenian Noblemen. Armenia is a republic – no one seriously questions that. Nobility has a cultural, traditional and genealogical value, but not as a political or administrative power. For your information, the Union of the Armenian Noblemen is a non-partisan and non-political organization. The UAN's focus is in the study of the history and traditions and making them useful for today's Armenia and Artsakh. There are no political or any other claims. Again, I would call for more responsible statements. Most of Armenian noblemen remained in Armenia and Artsakh and fought for independence. Generals Loris-Melikov, Daniel-bek Pirumian, Silikian (Slkuni) in Armenia, earlier meliks Hasan-Jalalian, Melik-Beglarians, Melik-Israelians, Melik Atabekians, Melik-Avanians in Artsakh - all made valuable contribution to the Armenians' fight for political independence. And even those few noblemen, who left for Russia or other countries - the Lazarevs (Lazarians), the Argutinski-Dolgorukovs etc - used their own resources and political connections to protect the interests of the Armenian people. Please, learn the facts before making any far-reaching claims. Nobody questions that. There are legal and moral concepts of nobility. I also have no doubt that the moral concept is truly important for our nation. But why do we need to put an artificial contradiction between the two? Historically there were never contradictions between these two concepts. A simple Armenian peasant and lord Vardan Mamikonian were fighting side by side against the invading Persian army. They both committed noble acts by the nature of their deeds. What is the problem these days? The Communist legacy? Actually, you asked several questions. But I will be happy to answer them since they sound much more balanced compared to some others' comments. Because this matters to the descendents of those noble families. Do you suggest to strip them of a natural right and interest to the lineage? So many persons around the world are interested in their ancestry, in their genealogy. It is part of Socratic "Know thyself". People want to know their roots, their history and the origins of their family. By knowing that there were nobles among your ancestors many will perceive this as a challenge. I have seen many people completely changing their lifestyle, attitudes, becoming more responsible, and developing a sense of duty before the nation. There are so many purposes that the nobility, its values and traditions, can serve. Not at all. We are driven by our own national interests and pursue national goals. Nobility is simply a part of our history, part of our traditions and part of today's Armenian society. Knowing our history, traditions and society is important for our identity - both national and personal. Since you spoke about other countries, I would invite you to study how the British, the Russians or even the Georgians perceive the importance of nobility. Most of this negative and aggressive criticism of national nobility would be impossible in those societies. Even nations that formally never had any nobility are for some reason developing that concept and persuading the world of their "noble origins". One good example is the Azeris, who make every effort to steal and nationalize Armenian noble families. The Internet is full of Azeri propaganda lies about Turkic origins of Artsakh melikdoms. Why do their do that? The answer is simple: stealing our nobility they steal a huge chunk of our history and traditions and, thus, get historical claims to the Armenian lands. I truly regret that many from the Armenian society appear to be so politically immature and unable to see the world behind little petty egocentrism. Again, a general comment: please make an effort to learn the history of your people and the true facts. Also, try to abstain from colorful expressions and extremist suggestions. I think this forum should not be confused with Bolshevik party sessions or Tamerlane's military council. Ignorance or intransigence were never virtues.

Dear all, I am one of the authors of the official website of the Union of the Armenian Noblemen. I had a chance to read the comments in here and would be glad to share my views with you. Due to the enormous workload, however, I do not think I will be able to actively participate in the discussions. Few notes to start with. First, I suggest caution and responsibility while we make our comments. Unbalanced and AbSUrd comments like "As far as I know this is a lie" can hardly be perceived seriously, especially if the authors of such comments are clearly not experts in Armenian history or genealogy. Nobility is about origins. It is not about being "better", "purer" or "higher" in any sense. Persons of noble origin are regular human beings with their strength and weaknesses, rights and wrongs. History proves that people, who do not have any noble origin (I avoid using word “commoners”), are very much capable of noble acts in war or peace times. Moreover, it is this regular people who are the basis of any nation. The same stands for the Armenians. Most of our contemporary prominent scientists, artists, political and spiritual leaders do not have noble origin which, undoubtedly, does not make their deeds less noble in any sense. In this regard, the nobility is by no means a substitute to the people; it must be seen as an integral part of this people. As my grandfather once put it, “nobility must be judged not by the greatness of origin, but by greatness of deeds”. Below are my comments regarding some of the views expressed here: The Armenian nobility is not a substitute or some sort of enemy of the Armenian Church. The coat-of-arms of the Union of the Armenian Noblemen has a Christian cross on it. Many prominent Armenian Christians were or are of noble origin: Hovhannes Mandakuni, many generations of Armenian catholicoi of Aghvank, Rusas Rushduni (contemporary American theology expert of Armenian origin). These facts show that there is no competition of any sort between the Church and the nobility. These claims were invented by historians. You confuse the words of historians with the original claims of the noblemen. The absolute majority of the Armenian nobility were of the Armenian origins. Even if we take the words of the historians as an ultimate truth, there were over 300 noble houses in the historical Armenia, and only 2 “Jewish” houses (supposedly the Amatunis and the Bagratunis), 1 “Assyrian” (the Artzrunis) and 1 “Chinese” (the Mamikonians). 300 – 4 = 296 Armenian noble houses. Do you seriously think we should neglect a huge and important part of our history and traditions because some historians baselessly “foreignized” 4 Armenian noble families? …Curious, how you calculated the percentage with such a “scientific” precision? Please see my next comment below. True. And more than that. There are hints in the history, which suggest that Vasak Syuni’s behavior was not really a classical case of betrayal. By siding with the Persians Syuni, most probably, naively believed that he is protecting Armenia from the Byzantine dependence. He thought that if Armenia is indeed so weak that it must choose between two evils – Iranian or Byzantine domination – then Iranian culture and traditions are closer to the Armenians. That is why, he thought, the Armenians should side with Iran, not Byzantium. By the way – and this is very important to keep in mind – the same ratio of division existed among the general Armenian public (again I avoid using the word “commoners”). The whole Armenian nation was divided; of course that would affect the nobility as well! But still, the absolute majority of the Armenian noble houses were against the Persians. And from that perspective, I personally think that Syuni’s behavior was still a betrayal. If the majority of your people makes a decision – whether right or wrong – you have no moral right to take arms and fight against them side by side with a foreign army. But, once again, history should be seen in specific geopolitical and time context. Similar divisions are part of history of many nations. Armenians are no exception. We should therefore not exaggerate these pages of our history and definitely not make them a basis for extreme and negative views on the role of the Armenian nobility. True. Moreover, the absolute majority of the Armenian kings and many of the historical heroes were of noble origin. Artashes, Tigran the Great, Arshak, Trdat and virtually all other kings, as well as Vardan Mamikonian, Vahan Mamikonian, sparapet Amatuni, Gevorg Marzpetuni, Davit-bek, Israel Ori and dozens of others were noblemen. To neglect this rich and truly heroic past of the Armenian history because of a couple of “Vasak Syunis” would be truly short-sighted stance. Like always-always…? Please read once again the history of Armenia. You seriously claim that Vardan Mamikonian or Davit-bek put their own interests first? In general, being more balanced in the comments and impartial in evaluation of history would be very much helpful. With due respect, are you an expert in genealogy or Armenian history? …Judging from your comments, I very much doubt so. In this case, again with all due respect, you are not in a position to judge who is self-proclaimed and who is not. There is a special committee at the Union of the Armenian Noblemen comprised of historians, genealogists, scientists, including members of the Armenian National Academy of Sciences, university professors and independent experts. They study all the claims carefully and based on documented proofs. In this regard, your personal uninformed opinion can hardly match their experience and expertise. As to the comments in the guest book, of course, any comments are valued, but avoiding grammatical errors in few words and strong-worded claims would be particularly appreciated. Thank you in advance for your understanding. See my previous comments about the claim procedures. Up until now there were many claimants, but only a limited number of them could actually prove anything. …Reading some of the comments make me wonder with what kind of evil-hearted personalities were writing them: Azeri or Turkish extremists, Bolshevik revolutionists or Tamerlane’s proud descendants? The same sick logic may similarly label the Armenian Genocide of 1915 as a “good BBQ”... Now, disregarding the hysterically-worded comments and focusing on the substance, the Armenian nobility existed even in the Russian Empire and the first Republic of Armenia up until the Bolshevik occupation in 1920. The nobility formally ceased to exist only after Bolsheviks came to power in Armenia. The latter dissolved nobility as a social stratum and continued Arabs’, Tamerlane’s and Turks’ policy of extermination. However, it is natural that after several thousands of years of existence nobility became so numerous and gave so many new branches that exterminating it completely is simply impossible. Even today, after the foreign and Bolshevik terror, we come across the Rshtunis, Arshakunis, Xorxorunis, Bagratunis, Trunis, Melik-Shahnazarians, Melik-Azarians, Orbelis any many others who have noble origins. This means that nobility exists and is part of the Armenian reality. Today, there is an attempt to revive the nobility, its best traditions and values, and to make them serve the Armenian nation and the states of Armenia and Artsakh. One can be either constructive and helpful, or be yet another Vasak Syuni …an internet style.