Armenian Nobility

[HOB]

http://nobility.artsakhworld.com

[Accelerated]

an extract from the link above....

 

.....The history, traditions and cultural heritage of Armenia are strongly linked with the Armenian nobility. The nobility traditionally played a mobilizing and leading role in the Armenian society, and greatly contributed to the preservation of Armenian national values, promotion of patriotism and the struggle of Armenians people for freedom....

 

As far as I know this is a lie. Any comments?

Edited August 3, 2004 by Accelerated

[Armen]

Accel, I would say it is truth. If not for the Church, our nobility would continue to play the same role.

[gamavor]

Ironically in the Anglo-Saxon culture there was (and still at large) a rule, a dictum that says: The King is always right and innocent.

 

Translated into Armenian it would read: The Nakharar (Feudal) is always right and innocent. I don't know if we invented anarchism, but for sure feudalism is our patent.

[Accelerated]

Accel, I would say it is truth. If not for the Church, our nobility would continue to play the same role.

 

Not according to the stuff that I have read (will try to find the material online when I have time). But yeah, my understanding is that the Armenian nobility were just as selfish and self-serving as their European counterparts if not more so. Some even seeked to disassociate themselves from the people they ruled by claiming to have foreign ancestors (Chinese, Jewish etc.)

[Accelerated]

One example proving this a lie is the famous battle of Avarair. You may be surprised to know that a large chunk (Im talking about at least 30%) of all Armenian nobles sided and fought with the Persians against their Armenian kin.

[Armen]

I know what you are refering to (no need for evidence as far as I am concerned). The nobility where human beings and they had their interests. There where good and bad people among them and they had positive and negative intentions. The foreign ancestry "madness" is just a episode after the fall of the Arshakouni dinasty, where the most powerful clans like Mamikonian, Bagratouni, Kamsarakan, Artsrouni and Amatouni had claims on the throne.

The nobility has prodused such brilliant personalities as King Pap, Theodoros Rshtouni, Ashot the Iron, King Gagik and many more.

[Armen]

One example proving this a lie is the famous battle of Avarair. You may be surprised to know that a large chunk (Im talking about at least 30%) of all Armenian nobles sided and fought with the Persians against their Armenian kin.

It was a battle of different faiths, not a battle among Armenians and Persians. Some of Armenian nobility were Zoroastririans and did not accept Christianity. They did not even differenciate among Armenians and Persians as there was a lot of intermarrige between Armenian and Persian nobility.

However, later the Avarair battle helped to form a distinct Armenian identity finding its glorification in our Church literature.

[Accelerated]

The nobility where human beings and they had their interests. There where good and bad people among them and they had positive and negative intentions.

 

indeed, so they shouldnt be claiming that they have: "traditionally played a mobilizing and leading role in the Armenian society, and greatly contributed to the preservation of Armenian national values, promotion of patriotism and the struggle of Armenians people for freedom" since they always put their own interests first and foremost and if this happened to coincide with the interests of the general Armenian populace then so be it.

 

PS. here is a previous discussion on Avarair LINK

[Armen]

indeed, so they shouldnt be claiming that they have: "traditionally played a mobilizing and leading role in the Armenian society, and greatly contributed to the preservation of Armenian national values, promotion of patriotism and the struggle of Armenians people for freedom" since they always put their own interests first and foremost and if this happened to coincide with the interests of the general Armenian populace then so be it.

 

PS. here is a previous discussion on Avarair LINK

You're right they shouldn't claim that. That's the normal and natural role of nobility (I would say by default). They are supposed to command the army and defend the territory. When they organize arround a king, or more precisely when a powerful ruler manages to enforce his will upon them, they constitute a highly organized feudal state.

I would think that the web-site is trying to advertise the nobility factor in Armenian history because our history is so connected with the Church that I, for example, feel digusted.

Edited August 3, 2004 by ArmenSarg

[HOB]

Accelerated

 

Since I’m not the author of this project on ArtsakhWorld I would recommend (if you wish) to contact people there in order to provide them with your comments or maybe you could help them somehow.

[Accelerated]

I really dont care for these self-proclaimed nobles, but I left a message in their guestbook anyway.

 

PS. I also remmember reading somewhere that the Armenian nobility was effectivelly wiped out by the Mongols in 13th(?) century....

[Stormig]

PS. I also remmember reading somewhere that the Armenian nobility was effectivelly wiped out by the Mongols in 13th(?) century....

I thought the nobility (at least in some places) was given a chance to reassert themselves under autonomy under the Mongols, something the Muslim rulers had denied them.

[Accelerated]

I think you are reffering to an earlier period when the Armenians allied themselves with the Mongols against the Caliphate in Egypt. The Armenian nobility was wiped out by Tamerlame in a later Mongol invasion (I think) because they had sided with the Ottomans and because Tamerlame couldnt resist a good BBQ.

[Accelerated]

LINK - this is where I got my info from...

[groul]

As usual the truth is inbetween

 

For example meliks of Artsax manage to keep autonomy during the time when there was no such thing as an Armenian state. And they played a very important role in bringing back the native Armenian population to Eastern Armenia from Persia.

[Boghos]

The problem with Armenian nobility is that we have too few commoners. )

[HOB]

For example meliks of Artsax manage to keep autonomy during the time when there was no such thing as an Armenian state. And they played a very important role in bringing back the native Armenian population to Eastern Armenia from Persia.

True.

[bellthecat]

The problem with Armenian nobility is that we have too few commoners. )

Actually it is the other way around! Since there is (apart from the occasional Orbeli and such like) almost no surviving Armenian nobility, almost everyone in Armenia, if they wished to, can claim (regardless of them having any actual evidence evidence) to have some sort of nobility somewhere in their ancestory. There was a controversial article about this in a journal of Armenian studies a few years back - it got the nostril hairs bristling in certain Armenian circles.

[Verbatum Nobile]

Dear all,

 

I am one of the authors of the official website of the Union of the Armenian Noblemen. I had a chance to read the comments in here and would be glad to share my views with you. Due to the enormous workload, however, I do not think I will be able to actively participate in the discussions.

 

Few notes to start with. First, I suggest caution and responsibility while we make our comments. Unbalanced and AbSUrd comments like "As far as I know this is a lie" can hardly be perceived seriously, especially if the authors of such comments are clearly not experts in Armenian history or genealogy.

 

Nobility is about origins. It is not about being "better", "purer" or "higher" in any sense. Persons of noble origin are regular human beings with their strength and weaknesses, rights and wrongs. History proves that people, who do not have any noble origin (I avoid using word “commoners”), are very much capable of noble acts in war or peace times. Moreover, it is this regular people who are the basis of any nation. The same stands for the Armenians. Most of our contemporary prominent scientists, artists, political and spiritual leaders do not have noble origin which, undoubtedly, does not make their deeds less noble in any sense. In this regard, the nobility is by no means a substitute to the people; it must be seen as an integral part of this people. As my grandfather once put it, “nobility must be judged not by the greatness of origin, but by greatness of deeds”.

 

Below are my comments regarding some of the views expressed here:

 

“If not for the Church, our nobility would continue to play the same role.”

“I would think that the web-site is trying to advertise the nobility factor in Armenian history because our history is so connected with the Church the I, for example, feel digusted.”

 

The Armenian nobility is not a substitute or some sort of enemy of the Armenian Church. The coat-of-arms of the Union of the Armenian Noblemen has a Christian cross on it. Many prominent Armenian Christians were or are of noble origin: Hovhannes Mandakuni, many generations of Armenian catholicoi of Aghvank, Rusas Rushduni (contemporary American theology expert of Armenian origin). These facts show that there is no competition of any sort between the Church and the nobility.

 

“Some even seeked to disassociate themselves from the people they ruled by claiming to have foreign ancestors (Chinese, Jewish etc.)”

 

These claims were invented by historians. You confuse the words of historians with the original claims of the noblemen. The absolute majority of the Armenian nobility were of the Armenian origins. Even if we take the words of the historians as an ultimate truth, there were over 300 noble houses in the historical Armenia, and only 2 “Jewish” houses (supposedly the Amatunis and the Bagratunis), 1 “Assyrian” (the Artzrunis) and 1 “Chinese” (the Mamikonians). 300 – 4 = 296 Armenian noble houses. Do you seriously think we should neglect a huge and important part of our history and traditions because some historians baselessly “foreignized” 4 Armenian noble families?

 

“One example proving this a lie is the famous battle of Avarair. You may be surprised to know that a large chunk (Im talking about at least 30%) of all Armenian nobles sided and fought with the Persians against their Armenian kin.”

 

…Curious, how you calculated the percentage with such a “scientific” precision? Please see my next comment below.

 

“It was a battle of different faiths, not a battle among Armenians and Persians. Some of Armenian nobility were Zoroastririans and did not accept Christianity. They did not even differenciate among Armenians and Persians as there was a lot of intermarrige between Armenian and Persian nobility.”

 

True. And more than that. There are hints in the history, which suggest that Vasak Syuni’s behavior was not really a classical case of betrayal. By siding with the Persians Syuni, most probably, naively believed that he is protecting Armenia from the Byzantine dependence. He thought that if Armenia is indeed so weak that it must choose between two evils – Iranian or Byzantine domination – then Iranian culture and traditions are closer to the Armenians. That is why, he thought, the Armenians should side with Iran, not Byzantium. By the way – and this is very important to keep in mind – the same ratio of division existed among the general Armenian public (again I avoid using the word “commoners”). The whole Armenian nation was divided; of course that would affect the nobility as well!

 

But still, the absolute majority of the Armenian noble houses were against the Persians. And from that perspective, I personally think that Syuni’s behavior was still a betrayal. If the majority of your people makes a decision – whether right or wrong – you have no moral right to take arms and fight against them side by side with a foreign army. But, once again, history should be seen in specific geopolitical and time context. Similar divisions are part of history of many nations. Armenians are no exception. We should therefore not exaggerate these pages of our history and definitely not make them a basis for extreme and negative views on the role of the Armenian nobility.

 

“The nobility has prodused such brilliant personalities as King Pap, Theodoros Rshtouni, Ashot the Iron, King Gagik and many more.”

 

True. Moreover, the absolute majority of the Armenian kings and many of the historical heroes were of noble origin. Artashes, Tigran the Great, Arshak, Trdat and virtually all other kings, as well as Vardan Mamikonian, Vahan Mamikonian, sparapet Amatuni, Gevorg Marzpetuni, Davit-bek, Israel Ori and dozens of others were noblemen. To neglect this rich and truly heroic past of the Armenian history because of a couple of “Vasak Syunis” would be truly short-sighted stance.

 

“…they always put their own interests first”

 

Like always-always…? Please read once again the history of Armenia. You seriously claim that Vardan Mamikonian or Davit-bek put their own interests first?

 

In general, being more balanced in the comments and impartial in evaluation of history would be very much helpful.

 

“I really dont care for these self-proclaimed nobles, but I left a message in their guestbook anyway.”

 

With due respect, are you an expert in genealogy or Armenian history? …Judging from your comments, I very much doubt so. In this case, again with all due respect, you are not in a position to judge who is self-proclaimed and who is not. There is a special committee at the Union of the Armenian Noblemen comprised of historians, genealogists, scientists, including members of the Armenian National Academy of Sciences, university professors and independent experts. They study all the claims carefully and based on documented proofs. In this regard, your personal uninformed opinion can hardly match their experience and expertise.

 

As to the comments in the guest book, of course, any comments are valued, but avoiding grammatical errors in few words and strong-worded claims would be particularly appreciated. Thank you in advance for your understanding.

 

“Actually it is the other way around! Since there is (apart from the occasional Orbeli and such like) almost no surviving Armenian nobility, almost everyone in Armenia, if they wished to, can claim (regardless of them having any actual evidence evidence) to have some sort of nobility somewhere in their ancestory.”

 

See my previous comments about the claim procedures. Up until now there were many claimants, but only a limited number of them could actually prove anything.

 

“The Armenian nobility was wiped out by Tamerlame in a later Mongol invasion (I think) because they had sided with the Ottomans and because Tamerlame couldnt resist a good BBQ.”

 

…Reading some of the comments make me wonder with what kind of evil-hearted personalities were writing them: Azeri or Turkish extremists, Bolshevik revolutionists or Tamerlane’s proud descendants? The same sick logic may similarly label the Armenian Genocide of 1915 as a “good BBQ”...

 

Now, disregarding the hysterically-worded comments and focusing on the substance, the Armenian nobility existed even in the Russian Empire and the first Republic of Armenia up until the Bolshevik occupation in 1920. The nobility formally ceased to exist only after Bolsheviks came to power in Armenia. The latter dissolved nobility as a social stratum and continued Arabs’, Tamerlane’s and Turks’ policy of extermination. However, it is natural that after several thousands of years of existence nobility became so numerous and gave so many new branches that exterminating it completely is simply impossible. Even today, after the foreign and Bolshevik terror, we come across the Rshtunis, Arshakunis, Xorxorunis, Bagratunis, Trunis, Melik-Shahnazarians, Melik-Azarians, Orbelis any many others who have noble origins. This means that nobility exists and is part of the Armenian reality.

 

Today, there is an attempt to revive the nobility, its best traditions and values, and to make them serve the Armenian nation and the states of Armenia and Artsakh. One can be either constructive and helpful, or be yet another Vasak Syuni …an internet style.

[Sasun]

I don't think we need to find people who come from noble families. Noble acts are what make one noble, not the family heritage. Most of our historical nobility have abandoned their lands and people and left for comfortable places, that is not at all a noble act. If we ever find them we need to strip them of their nobility. I remember a few years back a certain taxi driver from Spain with the last name of Bagratuni showed up in Armenia claiming to be from the royal family. He was thinking of becoming a king of Armenia

[Stormig]

May I ask a question? If nobility is in achievements rather than lineage, then why is there an attempt to revive the nobility as you put it, taking it so seriously as to sieve through documents to verify that claimants are indeed of noble lineage? What purpose does this serve? How is this going to benefit anyone? Is the aim to take the example of any other country where the nobility take the role of patrons of this or that?

[ED]

I don't think we need to find people who come from noble families. Noble acts are what make one noble, not the family heritage. Most of our historical nobility have abandoned their lands and people and left for comfortable places, that is not at all a noble act. If we ever find them we need to strip them of their nobility. I remember a few years back a certain taxi driver from Spain with the last name of Bagratuni showed up in Armenia claiming to be from the royal family. He was thinking of becoming a king of Armenia

I heard that story, I didn’t know about Armenian Bagratuni, but he clamed to be hear of the Bagratyon family in Georgia

[Sasun]

I heard that story, I didn’t know about Armenian Bagratuni, but he clamed to be hear of the Bagratyon family in Georgia

Maybe he tried Armenia, when it didn't work he went to Georgia (or tried Georgia first)

[Sasun]

Actually there was one other Bagratuni visiting Armenia with royal ambitions, this one was a journalist from Bulgaria.