Iranisms In Armenian Language?

[Iran01]

Iran (what is your real name?), there is a great book listing all the Persian borrowed vocabulary of the Armenian Bible. I'll get a name for you tomorrow.

 

If I remember correctly, there are over 700 items on that list.

 

Edit: Some say "common," but I stick to borrowed.

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Great ,

 

My real name is Zurvan.

 

 

One question, is the word "dashnak" derived from middle Persian "dashnag", meaning "dagger"?

[Harut]

One question, is the word "dashnak" derived from middle Persian "dashnag", meaning  "dagger"?

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no, դաշնակ [dashnag] is a member of Հայ Յեղափոխական Դաշնակցություն [Hay Heghapoxakan Dashnaktsutyun] (Armenian Revolutionary Federation) political party. Դաշնակցություն [dashnaktsutyun] - Federation

[shaunt]

Zurvan, here you go:

 

Author/Name: Olsen, Birgit Anette.

Title: The noun in Biblical Armenian : origin and word formation : with special emphasis on the Indo-European heritage / by Birgit Anette Olsen.

Published/distributed: Berlin ; New York : Mouton de Gruyter, 1999.

 

If you can find this book, be prepared to be blown away. It is very, very informative.

 

I'll give you a sneak peak:

Armenian "skavor" sorrowful, with root in Middle Parthian "sowg," meaning sorrow.

 

, I'll post an entire list of words when I get back to school.

Edited December 4, 2004 by shaunt

[Iran01]

no, դաշնակ [dashnag] is a member of Հայ Յեղափոխական Դաշնակցություն [Hay Heghapoxakan Dashnaktsutyun] (Armenian Revolutionary Federation) political party. Դաշնակցություն [dashnaktsutyun] - Federation

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okey, I just saw he logo of the federation , thought maybe it means dagger

 

http://www.arfd.am/common/graphics/zinanshan.gif

[gamavor]

Honestly, pure Persian words in Armenian are not that many. No more than 70- 80 words used in everyday verbal exchange.

 

There are few hundred if not thousand that are 'common' words. The fact that they are used in Persian (middle or else) doesn't mean that they are Persian in origin. Those words have common ruth but different suffix in Armenian.

 

Dashnaktzutiun is derived from "dashing" - meaning agreement, contract, convention, etc.. Dashnaktzutiun was created as a Federation of different political groups with common agenda.

[Iran01]

Zurvan, here you go:

 

Author/Name: Olsen, Birgit Anette.

Title: The noun in Biblical Armenian : origin and word formation : with special emphasis on the Indo-European heritage / by Birgit Anette Olsen.

Published/distributed: Berlin ; New York : Mouton de Gruyter, 1999.

 

If you can find this book, be prepared to be blown away. It is very, very informative.

 

I'll give you a sneak peak:

Armenian "skavor" sorrowful, with root in Middle Parthian "sowg," meaning sorrow.

 

, I'll post an entire list of words when I get back to school.

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Cool, look forward to see some words.

[Iran01]

Search ''time'', you'll find plenty of translated words (and زمن (zaman) is one of them). Each word is usable in different situations.

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good reading on "time concept"

 

http://www.livius.org/ag-ai/ahuramazda/ahuramazda.html

http://www.farvardyn.com/zurvan6.htm

[Arpa]

(Iran01 @ Dec 4 2004, 07:32 AM)

One question, is the word "dashnak" derived from middle Persian "dashnag", meaning  "dagger"?

 

no, դաշնակ [dashnag] is a member of Հայ Յեղափոխական Դաշնակցություն [Hay Heghapoxakan Dashnaktsutyun] (Armenian Revolutionary Federation) political party. Դաշնակցություն [dashnaktsutyun] - Federation

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Well, well!!

Whaddayano!!

I didn't know this!

Dashnak does mean "small dagger" in Armenian. Note the diminutive suffix "ak". It is also used in Persian to mean a small double edgede knife, or a small sword if you will. Some think it is from the Pahlavi "dashnak" for which there is no evidence, however "dashna" (without the k ending) may have been adopted from the Assyrian "dashnak", and it appears in the Arabic as "dashnaj". The Georgians use it too as "dashnagi" or just plain "dashna". Of course the more common word for dagger is "dashuyn" in Armenian, a variation of "dashna".

But I thought dagger in Persian was "khanjar". Yes it is, it is from the Arabic.

 

As to "dashnak" as federation, yes, but with a caveat.

Before we come to that let us also consider "dashnak" as the musical instrument, the piano. Both federation and the piano have the same root, "dashn", originally-agreemnent. Even though the more common word for agreement is "hamadzayn(utyun)", the latter in fact means "all sound".

 

Are you ready Sip!! :)

 

No, Sip "panasonic" is not an hermaphrodite named for Panos and Sonik. Wow!! I should congratulate myself! I just made a discovery. Panasonic does in fact mean "hamadzayn".

 

Let us consider words like "nerdashnak", "dashinq" etc. The later means "treaty" (literally-agreement), but the former will explain why that instrument is also called "dashnak". Nerdashnak means "harmonious", and at times it also means peaceful, pleasant. The word that is used for the musical instrument is a direct translation from the Latin "piano forte", i.e."dashn-amur", the formal term for piano, onviuosly to mean soft/peaceful and amur/forte.

 

As to dashnak-tsuyun=federation, once again it is based on the meaning of "agreement", a cooperation between agreeing sides- federation. Of course we call them "dashnak" out of shear laziness. Or may be because they play (on the piano) at times piano(soft) and at times forte. :) There may be those who would also like to break those fingers for the sake of peace, quiet and harmony

 

PS. Harut, do you know what "heghapokutyun" really means literally?

I'll give a clue, no, it is not based on "hegh" as in "heghegh/flood", as the latter is spelled with the ho and the former with the hee.

 

PPs. I agree with Gamavor. We may have said this a million times. The fact that we use the same words does not necessarily make it of Persian origin. Who knows who borrowed from whom? In most cases they go back to Sanskrit, Assyrian, Arabic (read Aramaic) or some such more ancient langiage. For that reason I have adopted a more inclusive "term-common to both languages".

But, then again. Why do we act so surprised? Aren't Persain and Armenian supposed to be members for the same linguistic family? I don't mean Farsi since it is more than 50% Semitic/Arabic.

Edited December 4, 2004 by Arpa

[Iran01]

But I thought dagger in Persian was "khanjar". Yes it is, it is from the Arabic.

 

Arpa

 

in new persian we still use "dashne" for small dagger. but as you stated khanjar is widely used too.

[Iran01]

PPs. I agree with Gamavor. We may have said this a million times. The fact that we use the same words does not necessarily make it of Persian origin. Who knows who borrowed from whom? In most cases they go back to Sanskrit, Assyrian, Arabic (read Aramaic) or some such more ancient langiage.  For that reason I have adopted a more inclusive "term-common to both languages".

But, then again. Why do we act so surprised? Aren't Persain and Armenian supposed to be members for the same linguistic family? I don't mean Farsi since it is more than 50% Semitic/Arabic.

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I agree that it is wrong to label all the words as "borrowed-words".

As I said before the relation between Persian and Armenian languages is very strange. I guess a small part are "borrowed-words" from Sasanians and new persian periods. But the majority are from a remote period.

I dont believe they have so much borrowed from Aramaic, Assyrian..

Even thought persians did use some kind of modified Aramaic alphabet for a while

and did the same with greece alphabet. But it didnt entered so many words from Greeks into Persian.

You will get surprised if you did compare persian words and sanskrits.

 

 

 

Anyway back to your problem

A common misstake many people do is to think new Persian is more than 50% Arabic words. WHICH IS TOTALY WRONG.

Actually new Persian has than 10-12% loanwords from Arabic.

 

( In persian script, read from message 849

http://www.goftmaan.com/forums/showthread....0&page=29&pp=30

 

The problem is that loanwords have higher usage than pure Persian words.

I guess according to link above loanwords has 3 times bigger usage than pure one.

That is why you think Persian has 30-50% loanwords.

The thing is for every percent you replace by a pure words! The loanwords reduce by 3%. And that is the problem! because purifying Persian require minimum resurces and goes very fast and people can not accept the changes if it goes too fast.

 

And yes if I read a Persian text from 100 years ago , I DO NOT understand it. It has probably 90% Arabic words. But I can easily read text from 1000 years ago!

 

At the end Persian is indeed very interesting language since it was the first nation to get attacked by Islamists 1400 years ago. The entire society structure was destroyed, it was forbidden to speak, use Persian for a long Period.

But all countries lost thier languages and today speak Arabic. But Iran didnt. And If you take a look behind Iranian borders, almost all nations kept thier native languages. So it was natural that persian get damaged since it tooks the first wave.

[Dave]

In Armenian, Dagger is Tashouyn (probably pronounced Dashouyn in Eastern Armenian).

In the Tashnag logo, the dagger/sword symbolizes armed struggle.

 

There's also a city in Iran called ''Shiraz''. This name is sometimes used by Armenians, and also by Indians. Other names that come from Persian that probably weren't mentionned here are Mher, Mihran, Anahid (names of Ancient Persian gods and godess), Souren (name of a general that was able to beat the invading Romans), etc.

[Iran01]

arus in Pahlavi means « white, bright, beautiful ». All these are good adjectives to describe a bride. I think therefore that arus is Persian, more particularly since it is very oftan accompanied with dâmâd which is no doubt Persian.

 

In recent years many people write arus in Persian with an « alef » and not with « eyn », which is the traditional way.

 

arus in Pahlavi results in fact from the combination of two close Avestan words: aurus^a- « white » (Sk. arusa- « reddish ») and aêrav-, « bright ».

 

This word has been borrowed from Middle Persian into Armenian as aruseak « bright morning star ».

 

Note also that in Persian we have another word for bride: vayug. Its other forms are bayug, bayu, vayu. It derives from Avestan vad- or vadh- « to marry, wedding ». Compare with Sk. vadhu « bride ».

 

 

http://www.iranianlanguages.com/forum/view...hlight=armenian

[kakachik77]

ASide from that. Yes, Armenian and Persian(whatever that may mean) may coincide about 50% of the time.

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50% WOW! If it is that high how come I don't understand a word of Farsi? Seems to be quite high. When asked, I normally reply that Armenian is UNIQUE, no close languages currently exist.

 

Also on Vagharshapat and Sardarapat (note in Eastern Armenian pronounced "pat"), I always thought that PAT had to do with a concept of a walled city, protected etc. I mean meaning a fortress-city, certainly I think was the case with Sardarapat.

 

Also note, my little discovery the other day while watching "Spiderman 2", if you translate to Armenian it will be "Sardamard". Now look at the 2 words and see how closely related they are. I mean in a lot of ways English is much closer to Armenian (sarcasm), it all has to do with being part of one Indo-European language group.

 

dur - door

sqyur - squirrel

dustr - daughter

amis - month

kov - cow

spider - sard

mard - man

to cut - ktrel

to eat - utel

to bring - berel

Edited January 5, 2005 by kakachik77

[Iran01]

What does "marz" mean in Armenian? "province"!

 

MARZ GEGHARKUNIK MARZ TAVUSH MARZ LORI MARZ SHIRAK MARZ ARARAT MARZ ........

 

 

In persian it means "border".

[Arpa]

What does "marz" mean in Armenian? "province"!

 

MARZ GEGHARKUNIK MARZ TAVUSH MARZ LORI MARZ SHIRAK MARZ ARARAT MARZ  ........

In persian it means "border".

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Are you ready!

You will be pleasantly surprised as I was.

Not so much that the word is quite common in Armenian, as you indicate to mean province.

And as you also know- marzpan/marzepan means governor.

It is also found in Persian from the Pahlavi marz to mean border. The reason it is so common in Armenian may be due to the fact that Armenia was often on the border.

Many eastern languages also use it.

 

It is from the PIE "merdz". One must remember that "merdz" in Armenian means near as in Merdzavor Arevelq (Near East) as opposed to Mijin Arevelq(Middle East).

Here is what surprised me.

The word is used in European languages as well, sometimes difficult to see. Consider words like "mark", or much rather "marc" as in demarcation, i.e. drawing borders. We may also see it in the "mork" form...surprise, surprise!! Dan-mork! The borders that demarcate Denmark.

[Iran01]

It is from the PIE  "merdz". One must remember that "merdz" in Armenian means near as in Merdzavor Arevelq (Near East) as opposed to Mijin Arevelq(Middle East).

Here is what surprised me.

The word is used in European languages as well, sometimes difficult to see. Consider words like "mark", or much rather "marc" as in demarcation, i.e. drawing borders. We may also see it in the "mork" form...surprise, surprise!! Dan-mork! The borders that demarcate Denmark.

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interesting

[Artaxias]

Pahlavi words in Armenian are all loanwords from the Arsacuni days. That doesn't make Armenian and Iranian "close". If you remove the loanwords the relation wont be any different than with other IE languages. Besides Greek that is, since Greek and Armenian have the same roots and split from PIE into one branch that later developed in Greek and Armenian.

[kakachik77]

Pahlavi words in Armenian are all loanwords from the Arsacuni days. That doesn't make Armenian and Iranian "close". If you remove the loanwords the relation wont be any different than with other IE languages. Besides Greek that is, since Greek and Armenian have the same roots and split from PIE into one branch that later developed in Greek and Armenian.

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I second this, specially that Phrygian and Thracian are directly linked to Armenian as ancestor tongues and these tribes definately were of Balkan/Greek origin.

 

It's kind of like looking at American English in the next 500 years for example and thinking that English came from Spanish because there are so many Spanish words that have become everyday words in English today, just because both are IE language and the respective countries where these languages are spoken share a border does not necessarily mean one language originated from another.

[shaunt]

If you think the relationship between Armenian and Persian is based on loanwords, you couldn't be further from the truth.

[Iran01]

"All men are in error who say: 'God made death, and evil and good derive from

him.' Especially as the Christians say: 'God is jealous. Because of the eating of a single

fig from the tree God made death, and subjected man to that punishment.' Such jealousy

not even man has for man, let alone God for men. For who says this is deaf and blind and

deceived by the demons of Haraman.

 

http://www.sasanika.com/pdf/Elishe.pdf

 

Elishe's History of Vardan and the Armenian War is a work of classical Armenian literature about fifth-century Christian Armenians' resistance to the religious persecution of the Sassanians.

[Iran01]

Good reading about Iranian Armenians history by Andranik Simonian:

(in Persian ) http://www.carpetour.com/fa/emagazine.asp?p=2015&AID=3672

 

 

ps. I always thought Shah Abbas was nice to Armenians, but according to the article he was not!

[Artaxias]

ps. I always thought Shah Abbas was nice to Armenians, but according to the article he was not!

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Uhhhm, he deported Armenians from their land to Persia because he required their skills and intelligence.

[Iran01]

Uhhhm, he deported Armenians from their land to Persia because he required their skills and intelligence.

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Do you mean Persians werent intelligent !

 

yes, it says he had the intention only to move Armenian skills, but later he deported almost all Armenians from Julfa.

Later he tried to convert them into Shiaism, but gave up.

[Artaxias]

Do you mean Persians werent intelligent ! 

 

yes, it says  he had the intention only  to move Armenian skills, but later he deported almost all Armenians from Julfa.

Later he tried to convert them into Shiaism, but gave up.

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Persians generally are. Although today anyone from a Tamil to an Uzbek passes for one under "Iranian". Muslims aren't.

 

In any case, while scars left by the Persians are not fully healed even to this day. it's nothing compared to what the nomads did to us. Even Arab invasions damaged more...

[Iran01]

http://www.iranica.com/articles/search/sea...dfdownload.html