MiB

Another reason why the words of turkish origin are not few in Hayastan is that, when we were in Persian Empire, the dominant state language in our region was not Persian but Turkish… Also the non-Armenian population of Eastern Armenia was not Persian but Turkish… The so-called khans of Erivan, too, were turks… So the Armenians in some places of Eastern Armenia were more closely surrounded by turks than the Armenians in some places of Western Armenia who lived not at turks but at Kurds, Arabs, etc… *** By the way, another strange word is “sekh”. Hayastancis usually call it by the turkish word “yemish”. But parskahays use the correct word “sekh”.

What Javakhk needs very much these days is the support and understandingof armenians in Hajq and in Spyurq...

> By the way, I'd like to move this topic to language if everyone is ok with it. Seems more appropriate there than here. I agree. By the way, later I will write a more detailed post concerning the points you guys rised. :-) MiB P.S. The word kusht in Erzrum dialekt of Armenian language (now spoken in Javakhk, for example) still is widely used and means side, to be at something...

Dear Iran01, Thank you very much for your post and for your help. 1. The word “derafsh” sounds rather old Armenian. The new Armenian form is “drosh”. And, in general, in many old Armenian words the letters av, af turn to o when that word over time gets transformed into newer Armenian. 2. I understand your point about Talish and Tat (=Parsi) people in Aran. Recently I read some of their websites. Their situation seems to be very hard indeed. Assimilation seems to be a very hard process for a handful of nationally-oriented Tats and Talishs. A site I recently found is: www.Talishica.org (it is mostly in Russian, but you can open an English thread in their Forum...) Very interestingly, recently a Talish guy wrote there: “And where are our Iranis? Why don’t they help us?”. Very hard to read that indeed.... 3. Well, I too find Arpa’s post too offensive and inappropriate. Whatever the Persians do and whichever other alphabet they choose (if they choose another one) it is not our business to “illuminate” them and to suggest our alphabet. Even if the Armenian alphabet serves Persian language and its dialects very well, Iran need not accept our alphabet because the latter is too national, and historically and “psychologically” is connected with Armenians. The old alphabet of Avesta, or the newer Pehlavi alphabet are the best candidates. Saying this we should bear in mind that it can be a very dangerous thing to change the alphabet in a country like Iran. For, currently Islam is one of the main unifying factors of polytechnic Iran! So if you switch to Avestan alphabet, then the Turks of Tabriz may wish to switch to the Turkish pseudo-Latin alphabet... So take care... All the best,

Hi, I urgently need your help with some point, and I will be very thankful to you if somebody helps me. Namely, I need an exact list of citations from ancient authors (Roman, Greek, Persian, Babilonion, etc.) who mention Armena and the Armenian kingdom. It will be great if the citations are with exact refenences to the chapter and title of the book. I need this info to present to a foreign friend who has received some STUPID agitation material from an Azeri idiot... Thank you, MiB

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Dear Arpa, Thank you for your post, too. I 80% disagree with you. However, I ask you not to post that sort of ideas here because this thread is about a very clearly defined topic indicated above. It simply is not good when every Aremnian thread contains all the stuff from “Haik and Bel” to “R. Kocharian vs A. Geghamian” thing... :-) Please... All the best, Tigran

Dear Iran01, Thank you for your explanations to the question about Media I asked. Now I have a more detailed picture. But, whatever the dominant language in Iran be (Median, Persian, Parthian, etc.), for me Iran is one “civilizational area” in which various Iranian nations and tribes ruled without changing the main “concept”. That is, they were different fragments of one common “carpet”. Can I ask you one more question please? Earlier you mentioned that some Armenian words (mainly related to some professional terms) were adopted by Persian language. Can you please give me a list of such words? Or, if the list is long, please give me a link to a webpage where I can gather further information. --- By the way, you mentioned Tat (Pars) and Talish people which are mostly "Turkified". Recently I found a few websites of Talishs and Tats in which they discuss their national problems (mostly related to the problem of assimilation). Some of them are pretty much “nationalist”, and they dream of a Talish national state. Others (the majority, I guess) think of some kind of cultural and/or administrative national autonomy inside Azerbaijan Republic (Aran). These sites mostly are in Russian language. I guess, it will be good if they open English (or even Persian) sections so that the Persian guys can take part in their discussions. Here is an URL: www.talishica.org There are other sites, too. Another interesting issue is that the more you study the population of Aran, the more you see that almost everybody there is a turkified member of a non-Turk nation (Tat, Talish, Pars, Lezgin, Kurd, etc.). Even the currently ruling dynasty of Alievs are Kurds (and it seems that in Azerbaijan everybody knows that!!). As very many people from Aran say, the “pure Turks” are 15-20% approximately. In Soviet times this generated almost no discomfort for non-Turk population in Azerbaijan Soviet Republic because in Soviet times all nations were equal (well, almost equal), and because in Soviet times the ideology of panturkism was prohibited. In contrast with this, now the official policy of Azerbaijan Republic is very pro-Turk. So many “former” Tats, Talishs, Lezgins, etc. do have some strange feelings, so to say... I understand that this all sounds like Armenian propaganda. But I have collected all this info from Azeri sites written by them. :-) All the best, Tigran

Dear Iran01, Thank you very much for your helpful post. I am very happy to see you at this Armenian forum! You are right: many Iranisms in Armenian language are very old and they come from pre-Persian, pre-Parthian or pre-Median times. So it is impossible to connect them with a given region of Iran. By the way, what do you think about the second question I posted above? It is the question that I cited above in Russian language (in blue color) and then translated into English (in red color). Thank you in advance for your answer. --- I am very glad to hear your kind words about Armenians in Iran. Yes, my own experience with Iranian guys is very much positive. Iran is our friend and is our (as a well known Armenian national ideologist said) elder brother. :-) All the best, MiB

Hello, Recently I posted the following topic in the “History” section. But I have not yet received detailed answers. Perhaps because that question concerning language and not properly history. http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=9115 In any case, can you please kindly take a look at that topic to see whether you can help me with some further info? Thank you very much in advance, ÞÝáñѳϳÉáõÃÇõÝ: MiB

Dear Teutonic Knight, Thank you very much for your post. The reason why I posted that question in THAT form was the following text I recently found on the web. It is in Russian, so to be sure I am giving its brief English translation below: Дело в том, что язык (т.н. древне-персидский) Ахеменидской (Мидийско-Персидской) империи по данным письменных источников является северо-иранским, то же самое признано и в отношении пехлеви (средне-персидский или парфянский), а вот позднее северные наречия сдали позиции южным - собственно языку персов. Так как это близкородственные языки, то неиранистам трудно определить различия, что даже почти до ХХ столетия оказало влияние ( персидскими языками долго считали мидийские). По характеру заимствованных из иранских языков слов в армянском ясно видно, что они больше мидийские, чем персидские. Но в научной литературе их принято называть общим термином - иранизмы. Brief translation: “In the times of Achemenid Empire or Parthian Empire the dominant language of the state on Iran was the language spoken in Media, and not the languages of southern or eastern parts of Iran. Only some time later the role of Persian language (Southern Iran) got larger and larger. Investigations of Iranisms in Armenian language show that they are more Median than Persian.” What do you think? Does this seem reasonable? Thank you, MiB

Dear forum members, Can a specialist share his opinion about the following two topics? 1. As it is well known in Armenian language we have many iranisms (=words adopted from an Iranian language). But we know that Iran is a collection of sister nations (Pars, Media, etc.). Sometimes these languages differ significantly. So now my question is from WHICH Iranian language has Armenian adopted the MOST number of words? Has somebody studied this? 2. Have Iranian languages adopted Armenian words? If yes, do you have examples? Has somebody studied this topic, too? All best wishes to the members of the forum, MiB

Dear Teutonic Knight, Thank you for your answer. Yes, my question was rather naive... So do I understand correctly from your answer that: 1. Urartu is NOT just another state that existed in Armenian Highland, and that 2. connection of Urartu with Armenia are not only geographic but also geneti, so to say? If yes, then in which brief FORMULA can that connection be better explained? Can we say that Urartu was a “pre-Armenia”? Or can we say that Urartu was a polytechnic state (dominated by Assyrian culture) in which the Armenian nation was born from a few “ingredients”? If yes, can you please list those main ingredients? I am asking this question in such a from because a few days ago a German friend asked me to quickly explain which is the connection between Urartu and Armenia... Thank you, MiB

Dear Edward, Dear America-Hye, Dear Teutonic Knight, Thank you very much for the references you gave. The book of A. E. Redgate, Elizabeth Redgate has surprisingly many NEGATIVE reviews at amazon.com (written by Armenians and non-Armeians, by the way). I searched for George Bournoutian's book as well. I also found a newer book of the same author: "A Concise History of the Armenian People: From Ancient Times to the Present ": http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-h...0887675-9319836 Has somebody seen this newer book? Is that better then the previously mentioned two-volume version? All the best! MiB

Dear forum members, I have a question about Urartu and about its people’s potential connections with Armenians. Namely, as we know Urartu was a strong and powerful country for a few centuries (well, probably one of the strongest countries in that period of time). So if we admit that they were not connected with Armenians, this will mean that in the 6th century BC that big nation (or collection of nations) within a few decades was replaced by Armenia and Armenians. Plus (and this is even more interesting!) after this replacement the Urartians NEVER appeared in the history, and they never tried to defeat those Armenians... Notice that very shortly in 612 BC Armenia was conquered by Media, which ruled it until 549 BC. So why didn’t the Urartians use this handy chance to get rid of the Armenians? How could such a big nation disappear so quickly?!?! This means that either: 1. the new Armenian migrants killed all the Urartians (very unlikely); 2. or that that transformation Urartu-Armenian was not connected very dramatic ethnic changes, that is, Urartu already partially was Armenia... Does this make sense? Thank you in advance for your answers, MiB