Teutonic Knight Posted May 25, 2004 Report Share Posted May 25, 2004 (edited) Armenian is indeed a very interesting language from Persian perspective. I was looking at this site ( In Persian script) : http://armanestan.persianblog.com There is a section about Armenian and Persian languages.... The word "arzân" , "ârzhan" : While in modern Persian it means "cheap", in Armenian it means "suitable, fit". But sometimes in prayer in Persian people still say: God thank you making your gifts "arzan" to us..! In Armenian it means cheap also. EZHAN Edited May 25, 2004 by Teutonic Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 and some western speakers use "azhan" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel4hope Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Rouge ..or other fine French words are used in modern Persian too. But I was thinking of "pure" words. For example "ârâyesh" in modern Persian means makeup. It comes from older word , "ârâstan" which means to trim, furnish... "Bazak" isnt used in modern Persian so much. Btw, why do you chop/chomp first vowel in Armenian: shrtnanerk , nstil... Is it the way the word is pronounced or has it to do with Armenian alphabet? interestingly enough i have hears people call it "svaghvel" meaning something to do with cement- construction i believe- very funny trm to use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Yes, "svagh-el" is used as well, in fact in the pure form it is "seva" the gh ending is a modification as we will see below when we juxtapose it with the Armenian, in the above form it is not proper Armenian and it is too (forgive the pun)uncooth/antash/rough. It is commonly used as in to "plaster" a wall. It is commonly considered Turkish, the Armenian word is "tsep-el/dzepel". But wait a minute. It seems like both "sva(gh)" and "tsep" have a common ancestor. There is no "ts" or "dz" in turkish, they turn into S and Z respectively. Some old Armenians from so-called Turkish Armenia(an oxymoron) would say; Zo barekam, sav@d tanem".** Who borrowed from whom? Yes, ezhan (eastern) and azhan (western are both official and both mean cheap, low priced. I'll be!!! In proper circles it is considered a mortal sin to use "arzhan" to mean cheap. Those who use the one with the R to mean the one without it are looked down as barbarians and are accused of poor mastery of the language. :) Blow me down!!! As that great philosopher Popeye would say.*** It turns out that all three versions, azhan, ezhan and arzhan are derived from the same origin, i.e the last one, the one with the R (from the Pahlavi "arzan" which in fact means proper, becoming, WORTHY. I read the monograph a million times yet I cannot make out as to how one word acquires a totally different meaning, a meaning that is a totally opposite, a rotation of 180 degrees? Let's play a game. Let us see how many words are composed with "arzhan" (worthy, precious/pricy) as the base. I will begin with "hargarzhan/arzhanapativ Ter Hayr". I still maintain that the peoper Armenian word is "shpar/shaperel". YOu may also consider ("Hambartsum yayla... zugvel en dashter...") zugvil, zugaran. Dear Iran01, also consider "nakhsh/nakshun". ** Don't be scandalized. I can write about dzo, tso, as in "tso tgha"!, lo, lao, qa , as in "qa ahgchik"!, qla as well. *** When George W's father asked him who had cut the cherrry tree down, little Georgy answered; "Popeye did"!! Can you see what he actually meant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 In proper circles it is considered a mortal sin to use "arzhan" to mean cheap. Those who use the one with the R to mean the one without it are looked down as barbarians and are accused of poor mastery of the language. :) It turns out that all three versions, azhan, ezhan and arzhan are derived from the same origin, i.e the last one, the one with the R (from the Pahlavi "arzan" which in fact means proper, becoming, WORTHY. I read the monograph a million times yet I cannot make out as to how one word acquires a totally different meaning, a meaning that is a totally opposite, a rotation of 180 degrees? Dear Arpa That was my point, Those "proper circle" are right. plz look in Armenian poetry, writting .... . I am sure you will see the usage of: light/heavy and cheap/expensive are not as it is expected to be. It will confirm thier arguments.... The word "cheap" is more associated to "weight" ! The price-level is defined as "worth to best". It is hard to explain, but when I saw the the definition of "arzân" as suitable, worthy in Armenian..I got an "aha" experience since the word "garân" ( expensive in Persian ) confirm the correct meaning of "arzhan". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Nairi Nâiri, Nâirikâ An Avestan's word for "devouted married woman" . http://armanestan.persianblog.com http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm#dctn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaunt Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Us Persian-Armenians have a lot of Iranisms in our Armenian, . And it's interesting how I don't even realize this. There are so many words I took to be Armenian, but they were straight up Persian. Sometimes I remark to my mom that at times it seems most of our words come from Persian, and she agrees, giving me a list, . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nairi Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Nairi Nâiri, Nâirikâ An Avestan's word for "devouted married woman" . http://armanestan.persianblog.com http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm#dctn Brilliant! I didn't know this. See here: http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1539&hl=naru By the way, is there a word for great-grandmother in Farsi? There doesn't seem to be one in Armenian. We call our grandmothers and great (great-great-great- etc.) grandmothers "tatik" or "metsmam". The same goes for our great-grandfathers, either "papik" or "metspap". Although this may differ in dialects. From what I understand, in Armenia "metspap" means "great-grandfather" and "papik" grandfather. So what's a great-great-grandfather? And it's interesting how I don't even realize this. There are so many words I took to be Armenian, but they were straight up Persian. Sometimes I remark to my mom that at times it seems most of our words come from Persian, and she agrees, giving me a list, . I'll never forget my mom asking me to bring shaqar (sugarcubes) and when I brought them, she said: "No, not ghand. Shaqar". Meaning: shaqar = (granulated) sugar, ghand = sugarcubes. In "proper" Armenian, granulated sugar is "shaqaravaz" (lit. sugar sand) and sugarcube is "shaqar". Welcome to hyeforum Shaunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Brilliant! I didn't know this. See here: http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1539&hl=naru By the way, is there a word for great-grandmother in Farsi? There doesn't seem to be one in Armenian. We call our grandmothers and great (great-great-great- etc.) grandmothers "tatik" or "metsmam". The same goes for our great-grandfathers, either "papik" or "metspap". Although this may differ in dialects. From what I understand, in Armenia "metspap" means "great-grandfather" and "papik" grandfather. So what's a great-great-grandfather? Something was funny there and I will not ask so much Anyway, interesting thread about names by Arpa , You ,... What goes for "Naire" ( male) "Nâiri" (female): What I can recall, for ex the ancestor of Rostam ( hero of heros in Shahname) is mentioned as "Sâm Narimân (= Sâm the hero, the male, the brave..)". And the modern word "nar" is devoted to "male animals". So it dosent sounds so good to be refered as "nar" in modern Persian But on other hand it is considered as very beautifull to have last name such as: "Narimân". Check this one, plz: http://www.canada-osetia.net/iryston/saga.html This the mythology of ossetians. It is story about "Narts". There is a theory that the "Nart" has its root in some indo-European languages as : "male". It is indeed very interesting with names. For ex "Ânush" in Armenian is used mainly for girls name, but in Persian both for boys and girls. What goes for grand..grand..father/mother ! I dont know. Nothing I can recall now. I know in some Iranian dialects "mâmik" or modern "mâmi" is used by children to show thier affection....In old/new Persian these words are used for father/mother : pedar/bâb/bâbâ and mâdar/mâm/mâmâ. The only word I can recall close to grand....grand is: "niâ or niâkân" which means ancestor. Otherwise "mâdar/pedar bozorg" is used for grand father/mother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Check this one, plz: http://www.canada-osetia.net/iryston/saga.html This the mythology of ossetians. It is story about "Narts". There is a theory that the "Nart" has its root in some indo-European languages as : "male". Mind you, not to Ossetians only. I'm not even sure that John Colarusso has studied Ossetian versions of the Nart tales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Mind you, not to Ossetians only. I'm not even sure that John Colarusso has studied Ossetian versions of the Nart tales. I know! Sometimes I read articles by Panturks who claim that Shahname is a Turkish mythology which was stolen by Iranians We are not Indo niether European! I guess Mr John Colarusso's is more interested in Caucasusian verion of the "Narts". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 I guess Mr John Colarusso's is more interested in Caucasusian verion of the "Narts". Yes, though this is probably because of the limitations of his linguistic knowledge. I'll have to check his foreword or something sometime. However, given their migratory history and geographic location, I am inclined to think that the "Caucasian" corpus probably comprises the original bulk, rather than being a mere "version," as Ossetians would do little to explain connections between the mythology of this geography and certain parallels between Greek mythology - the "Caucasians" along the coast, and a bit inland, had trading relations with the ancient Greeks, and Colchis was here, too. Mind you, I don't know much if anything about Ossetian history, so I could be totally wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 While reading Steves account of Sebastea, and trying to hold back my tears it also jolted my senses at the mention of Vaspurakan. A region of Mets Hayk, Greater Armenia, an area of 40,000 sq km hugging the western coast of Lake Van and extending east all the way to the south Artsakh. I had never given a thought as to the origin of the name. See below, auote taken from page 10 of the site furnished by Iran01 above. Armenian sources do assert this. And while we're at it see if you will recognize other names and words that are also used in Armenian. ======== royal guard (hazaøbad), scribes (dibirs), treasurers (ganzwars), judges (dadwars), and a market inspector (w ~z ~rbed), along with the local kings (šahrdaran), princes of royal blood (waspuhragan), grandees (wuzurgan), minor nobility (azadan), and other officials as mentioned in the res gestae. The nobility (wuzurgan), whose loyalty to their clan was paramount, now submitted to the Sasanians.29 Such families as Waraz, Suren, Andegan, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 royal guard (hazaøbad), scribes (dibirs), treasurers (ganzwars), judges (dadwars), and a market inspector (w ~z ~rbed), along with the local kings (šahrdaran), princes of royal blood (waspuhragan), grandees (wuzurgan), minor nobility (azadan), and other officials as mentioned in the res gestae. The nobility (wuzurgan), whose loyalty to their clan was Ganz, Ganj, Ganzak, Ganja In the above paragraph there are several words that are common to both Iranian and Armenian in one form or other. First highlighted is "dipir/dpir" a very common word which appears in many shades and combinations. We will leave that aside as it deserves a whole separate treatment to itself. For now let us take ganz/ganj which means exactly the same in both laguages- treasure, and the way it appears above "ganzwar/ganzavor" again meaning treasurer in both languages. The word has been adopted by many other languages both Middle Eastern and European such as the Arabic/Turkish "khazna", the Latin "cassa", Eng. "case" the latter two often used to mean safe, the strongbox to hold valuables and treasure. (This is totally my ad lib; does the word cash/cashier have anything to do here?) There is a silly saying in Armenian; "Yes ganz asem du tanz lses". Infering to misunderstanding. Commonly one would translate it as; "I say treasure, you hear pear". It doesn't make much sense, then again the proper translation does not make much sense either. The alternate tranlation which we'll see soon is based on an alternate meaning of the word "ganz" in Armenian, which in this case has come from the west rather than the East. There is a very popular word in religious church cirles "ganzaran" which is a collection of sharakans, hymns. This "ganz" as opposed the other "ganz" in fact means "song", "chanson" in French and "canzone" in Italian, let us spell this word as "canz". Hence based on this fact that silly saying would be; "I say song, you hear pear". It turns out that the saying is a direct translation from the original French; "Je parla chanson, vouz repondez poire", except that the Armenian version is much more poetic. We would be amiss to not talk about Ganzak/Ganja and Ganzasar Monastery in the Martakert Region of Artsakh that is named for the fact that it had a fortress used as a treasury. The latter is named so after the hill it is built on which is rich in silver and other precious metal ores. The former is a city in the Historical Utik region of Syunik, in Azerbaijan at the present. There are/were several other Ganzaks both in Eastern and Western Armenia, and there also was one in Iran on the shores of Lake Urmia which served as the capital city of Iranian Atrpatakan at one time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 (edited) In the above paragraph there are several words that are common to both Iranian and Armenian in one form or other. First highlighted is "dipir/dpir" a very common word which appears in many shades and combinations. We will leave that aside as it deserves a whole separate treatment to itself. If I am not wrong "dipir" ( Modern Persian "dabir") has its root in Greek! Maybe I am wrong. But this one; "daftar" (note-book, book) is an old greek word . Now, this one is interesting! "Gij" in Armenian means "crazy" but in Persian means giddy,absent-minded,confused. Edited June 3, 2004 by Iran01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 (edited) judges (dadwars), This word is such a beautifull word. many legal terms were derived from it; Dâd, justice Dâvar, judge Dâdgâh, court dâdxâst , petition dâdrasi , legal procedure dâdyâr , assistant to the public prosecutor dâdsetân , public prosecutor dâdsetâni , dâdsarâ , public prosecutor's office dâdxâh , petitioner dâdxâhi , dâdgar , righteous dâdgostari But thanks to islamic republic almost all of them are replaced by Arabci words Edited June 3, 2004 by Iran01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 We had a Tajik from Pamir in Badashkhshan in our university and we often compared Armenian and Farsi with him. We both were amazed at how much in common had Armenian and Farsi swear words. I mean this was the first time I realy understood the meaning of Armenian swear words and he clarified some of the Farsi ones himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 I mean this was the first time I realy understood the meaning of Armenian swear words and he clarified some of the Farsi ones himself. do you swear in Armenian without knowing the meaning.. yeah, blame Persian for that can you give us some example of those common swear words? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armen Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 do you swear in Armenian without knowing the meaning.. yeah, blame Persian for that can you give us some example of those common swear words? No, we no exactly what it means but I for one could not understand the root word. OK, sorry everybody who read this, this business needs to be delt with. The root "qun" in Armenian is used for a verb that is among the heavy artilery swear words. Until I met that Pamirian I thought "qun" comes from Armenian "qnel" (to sleep), which doesn't realy made sense. Than he mentioned that "qun" means "a hole" in Farsi and if you add the verb fragment "el" or "al" (which surprisingly are the same in Pamirian Farsi) it will represent the corresponding action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axel Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 (edited) The meaning was quite clear to me as I thought it had some relation with the latin "cunnus" from which the french "con" is derived as well as the english word I will not write here . The question is: which one came first, latin or persian? Maybe Arpa knows the answer to this etymological question with far-reaching implications... Edited June 4, 2004 by axel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 No, we no exactly what it means but I for one could not understand the root word. OK, sorry everybody who read this, this business needs to be delt with. How much lower can we sink? :) As long as we have precipitated so low let us get to the bottom of the matter. In my opinion this matter needs to be treated all by its own, after all blasphemy and cussing is becoming an integral part of life, and as things have come as far as they have with the media language being interspersed with "blue words" between every sentence, lets create a new topic. Go to Language and look for "Hayhoyanq". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persian Friend Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 Hello Guys: With respect to the Persian language I remember a few years ago I was reading a linguistic book whereby the Persian language was described as being the Eastern equivalent of the English language in terms of its historical development. England was conquered by the Normans around 1000 years ago and the Normans were French-speaking people from Normandy in Northern France and they governed England for about 400 years afterwards. As a consequence a great many French words entered the English language and became anglicized. This major historical event had a great impact on the syntax and semantics of the English language. Furthermore the language of science and scientific communication in Europe was Latin which was a Roman language which caused an influx of Latin words into the English language. Similarly Persia was also conquered by the Arabs and the Arabs ruled the country for many centuries. The lingua franca in this Islamic Empire was of course Arabic and all the Persian scientists were composing their works in this language. They even wrote the most complete grammar of the Arabic language. There were many words that entered the Arabic language from Persian and then reentered the Persian language in their Arabicized form but were pronounced with a Persian accent. As an example the word 'Barg' meaning leaf in Persian became 'Varagh' and took on the meaning of 'peace of paper' or 'leaflet' in Persian. Sometimes the words are wrongly assumed to be of Arabic origin whereby they are evidently Persian such as the word 'Borj' meaning 'Tower' is the Arabicized word for 'Borg' of course related to 'Burg' in German and other languages. There are attempts to reduce the occurence of Arabic words in the Persian language or to eliminate them altogether. During the reign of Reza Shah the Farhangestan was assigned the task of creating sound words to replace some commonly used Arabic words and some European loan words and the efforts continue even nowadays. For example the word for an airplane used to be 'Tayareh' and now it became 'Havapeyma' or the word 'Automobile' was replaced with 'Khodro'. But it is not easy to undo and unroll many centuries of literary works and popular culture. The Arabic words have been persianized in the sense that they have in many cases acquired differnt meanings and have taken on Persian prefixes and suffixes and are pronounced with a Persian accent. One of the effects of these conquests on the native languages has been that they caused these languages to be simplified in terms of grammar and also had an impact on the melody of the language and also added more expressive power to these languages because they considerably expanded the vocabulary. This also made for a more fluid conversation in these languages. Maybe that is why the English language is so well-suited for pop music or has a nicer ring to it than for instance the German language. Maybe that is why Persian poetry and music has been quite rich. I have heard many Persian Armenians, particulary singers attest to the fact that Persian is a more beautiful language for writing songs and it rhymes better and has a better ring to it. At one time a Persian Armenian co-worker also once mentioned/confided in me that his Persian Armenian girlfriend always insisted that they speak Persian although they had emigrated for many years and as a proud Armenian he wanted to speak Armenian foremost. All the best. Persian Friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koko Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 (edited) i dont think that music neccacarly sounds better singing it in persian than it is in armenian. Depends on what kind of music we are talking about. I do both, and both are beauitful in each their own way. Edited June 10, 2004 by koko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Knight Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 Persian Friend, English and French are both Indo-European languages with Germanic and Latin roots. There was nothing "unnatural" about the evolution of English. On the other hand what happened with Persian can only be called a perversion and a corruption. I hope that one day a great Persian government and leaders will come about and restore the great Persian language and culture back to its former glory and beauty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iran01 Posted June 12, 2004 Report Share Posted June 12, 2004 On the other hand what happened with Persian can only be called a perversion and a corruption. totaly correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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