Families Under Pressure

[Anileve]

Hi everyone,

 

I came across this article recently, and I must admit it left me with lump in my throat.

 

More in the outskirts of Armenia adults and children are struck, with immense poverty beyond the imaginable. I was never faced with this level of horror. Are any of you familiar with the MSF organization? It is strange that for all of the years of their existence (since 1988) they only have an International staff of about 16 people and National staff of about 97. That is simply not enough of an influence or efficiency considering the amount of staff that they have per population of 3 million (even if that much). Besides this organization is an international organization and there are hardly any National ones running in Armenia. I must say that I am deeply angered by it, read on and see how it affects you.

===========

 

Arsen, 11, and his brother Andranik, 12, used to go to Yerevan from Parakar to beg for money to save their family from hunger. They had not been to school for two years because their single-mother Narineh could hardly provide food for her four sons and could not afford other expenses.

 

ArmeniaNow

[Anileve]

Come on people I see that the views number has grown to 21, are you not interested in learning about the poverty in Armenia that sends 12 and 9 year olds to Yerevan to beg for bread and as a result children can’t go to school? Or is Georgia more important than a woman who can’t get any financial aid, due to the fact that her husband is running around the country gambling and she can’t get in touch with him to receive a divorce, thus she and her 4 children have to live in a “barn”. Or poetry is more intriguing than finding out that Niraneh’s only hope for her 2 older kids to get some education and get fed is to send them to the school for mentally ill, even though they are not?

 

Could it be that we would rather send money to build a road in Karabagh through a plump Armenian fund that pockets half of Diasporas money, rather than seeking organizations that are working directly with poor families in Armenia? Come on, let’s hear some feedback. I cannot be the only one who is outraged by this preposterous situation!

[Armat]

I got exactly $5.00 in my savings(no joke) otherwise I would help.You probably aware that perhaps half of Armenia's population survives from help abroad send by friends, reletives and total strangers.I bought art from starving Armenian artists from Georgia and the art was not even to my liking!

I can't speak for everyone and I do not judge others.

[Anileve]

Yes I am aware of the outside support, I am originally from Hayastan, I remember the transactions LOL. What I don’t understand is why so many haven’t learned that collecting millions will not insure that the money will get to the appropriate sources. The billions in aid are pocketed by already plump and greasy crooked politicians that use that money to buy more mansions in Jermuk and indulge themselves in the finest barrels of caviar. Why is it that MSF is so unknown in the Armenian community and there are only about 113 people in the organization in Armenia that specialize in helping kids off the streets?

 

Why are no other programs in Armenia promoted so that we can make direct donations to them rather than investing our money to famous organizations in the US or other Countries for that matter? Armat jan it is not about donating tons of millions to the fund but rather us inquiring whether our money is properly routed.

[Armat]

Why are no other programs in Armenia promoted so that we can make direct donations to them rather than investing our money to famous organizations in the US or other Countries for that matter? Armat jan it is not about donating tons of millions to the fund but rather us inquiring whether our money is properly routed.

You have raised good points, which also baffles me as well. I can only speculate the reasons- TV is expensive and also most effective method to raise money. You have seen this scene many times when the fund raisers loudly read donors names on TV to play the ego game (who can top that and the pleasure to hear your name called) Smaller organizations have no such venue because by virtue of being small and powerless hence no TV exposure and no ego games. One way is through Armenian newspapers. They are cheaper and often they will run free promos. The problem is how many of us read Armenian papers? So it is more complex and very related to assimilated issues, which we have talked here endlessly…

[Anileve]

Well I am making an attempt to raise awareness on this issue, to which so many people are replying all at once… And it would help if one looks into separate issues and brings them up through any channels possible, such as contacting MSF and finding out what can be done and donating to them directly for Armenia, they are the only organization which is providing any aid to those poor families. I want to see if I can organize something to gather people for a lecture on this particular subject.

 

I am frankly tired of hearing how many more nightclubs and cafes and restaurants have been erected. Or how Yerevan is renovating its new and fancy buildings and Armenian Fund is building a road in Karabagh, and they are building more hotels. Meanwhile a teacher has to go to the Republic Square to sell “semushki” (sunflower seeds) to make some extra money to buy bread. Where are we planning to take this Genocide issue if the Government can’t even take care of their handful of barely 2 million people ( I heard it’s less nowadays) and they are starving. This is just senseless. I don’t care that our capital looks “so pretty” if normal children are attending schools for mentally challenged to get some free food. This is just absurd.

 

Anyway, I just wanted people in this forum to know of what is going on outside Yerevan, and to question the quest of their investments. And to let everyone know about MSF, I have to learn much about it too.

Edited November 26, 2003 by anileve

[Harut]

i had decided not to post today, but...

i don't know what you are so upset about in regard people not saying anything. too much has been said, no actions has been taken. starving kids and homeless 'miaynak mayrer' are present everywhere, in every society. most of the time they are in such situation 'irants xelqits'. however, i believe that as human beings have reached such kind of civilization that are required to help those in need, even though there might be no hope that they will ever get back on track. i also believe that it is the government's responsibiliy to take care of such social issues. large corporations also can help to fix things up. however, i don't believe that non-profit organizations make much change to the situation; unless they are as big as red cross. a family fed here there doesn't make much differnce (maybe it does for the family in question but not in the broader sense). nevertheless, those organization shouldn't be discouraged.

but unfortunately, Armenia is in very anarchic state, where everyone basically saves his/her neck - public good is non-issue, the government doesn't give a damn about distribution of welth, etc.. so, the government funding for families in need is not to be expected soon. but we shouldn't just blame the government because the government is the people, the people is the government. it's the poeple that have to change from within and look a little beyond from their small wolrd.

homeless starving families, who have twisted view of life, are always going to be present. it's the way that we as a society handle them that matters.

there, i said it again, but took no action...

[phantom]

There are lots of different organizations throughout the world that are trying to make a difference in Armenia. It is difficult, though, because government officials make it extremely difficult to help those in need unless they get their cut. It is ridiculous to me that one has to bribe officials in Armenia in order to give to the poor, or to donate to various groups or organizations in Armenia.

 

I belong to the Knights of Vartan, which is an organization that has done a great deal to cut through much of the red tape. For example, my chapter of the Knights raises money every year in our community here in America, and whatever we've raised that year is taken to one of several schools that we sponsor in Armenia. One of our brothers also has a house in Armenia, so every year he goes there with the money and personally hires the contractors and buys the materials and supervises the work to make sure that it is completed under budget and that none of it is wasted on bribes. He video tapes the work including before and after shots so that we can see the progress that was made. This year we fixed all of the broken windows, bathrooms, and gymnasium and put in a new computer lab in one school. Next year, we will probably continue working on that school, because there is so much more to do there.

 

If there wasn't so much corruption in Armenia, we could make even greater progress.

 

By the way, I read this story on Armenianow last week, and I was equally appalled. That weekly magazine has at least one story every week that shocks me and discourages me with respect to Armenia. The stories that anger me the most, however, are the ones that show the greed of Armenia's power families. For example, one story from two or three weeks ago was about one of the ministers, the one who is actually in charge of the environment. He was cutting down trees that were endangered and putting them in his families restaurants. Can you imagine that!

[SirumemKez20]

that's so sad

[Shahumyan]

Charity wont solve the problem.

 

Why look for a weak cure when we can get rid of the problem.

 

What is the problem? Poverty

What system of government brings about Poverty? Capitalism

How do we remove this injust system? Revolution

What do we replace it with? Workers Democracy

 

In America, the richest land in the world, there are 30,000,000 below the poverty line, what hope does Armenia have as a semi-colony to remove poverty?

[Sip]

What do we replace it with? Workers Democracy

Where has ever Workers' Democracy worked and been successful? Why do you think it would work now?

[Shahumyan]

What is your definition of "worked"?

 

Worked as in for the benefit of the people? I think the brief period of the Paris commune, and the years 1917-1921 of the Russian Revolution.

 

If you mean maintained itself under the name, then u can look at cuba, china, vietnam etc.

 

However, i wouldnt call the latter section workers democracy's

 

Where has capitalism worked?

If capitalism worked we wouldnt need to have government restraints such as regulations etc etc, nor would be need a welfare state.

 

 

What makes me think it can work 2day?

The fact we have the history to learn from, and the undeniable need to change the status quo for the benefit of the people

[Sip]

What makes me think it can work 2day?

The fact we have the history to learn from, and the undeniable need to change the status quo for the benefit of the people

What I have learned from history is that "workers democracy" cannot survive as it fails to take into account basic human traits such as greed, instinctive desire to accumulate wealth, and the fact that the average worker is going to be pretty stupid and unable to make intelligent decisions.

 

Democracy is great when making public policy and electing leaders but economic decisions should be left to the guys who know the economy

 

By the way, I'm not saying anything about what's right or wrong for Armenia as I don't know. I just don't understand how "Workers' Democracy" or in other words "idiots in charge" will ever work. Unless you think the average worker is an intelligent being in which case I think we have to agree to completely disagree.

[Shahumyan]

oh, u have so much faith in mankind, are you saying your too stupid to voice your opinion about the economy?

 

No mate, long gone are the days when we were treated as slaves and had no voice.

 

"economic decisions should be left to the guys who know the economy"

- Like who? the mob in government? or the bourgeoise politicians who simply follwo instructions from the bourgeoise?

 

Greed is not instinctive, it is a phenomonon bred into us under this system, we have to be greedy to survive. If your not greedy u die.

 

If we were so self serving why do people risk their lives to save others?

[Azat]

Shahumyan welcome to HyeForum.

 

According to your statistics(and I actually do not know the numbers) what is wrong with an economic system where 90% live above the poverty line?

 

Also to clarify what is meant by poverty line in the US. This does not mean that they live day to day without food or money, in fact most(not all) live fairly comfortably. most have cable TV and microwave and a roof over their heads. In the US I believe the "poverty line" is set at about 10,000 a year(just under) and 10K can go a long way in certain circumstances.

 

as for socialism or workers Democracy, it just has not worked in any country for a significant amount of time. It is a failed system as it relies on taxing the rich to death to keep the poor going. And it discourages innovations and growth.

[Armat]

Charity wont solve the problem.

 

Why look for a weak cure when we can get rid of the problem.

 

What is the problem? Poverty

What system of government brings about Poverty? Capitalism

How do we remove this injust system? Revolution

What do we replace it with? Workers Democracy

 

In America, the richest land in the world, there are 30,000,000 below the poverty line, what hope does Armenia have as a semi-colony to remove poverty?

OHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAAAAA we got a real commie here

History shows that human behavior is motivated by survival and greed and these two factors propel any economy. What the communists did not realize that human freedom is far more important then artificial equality. There is no such thing as equality period!!! Idealistic hogwash.

[Armat]

Greed is not instinctive, it is a phenomonon bred into us under this system, we have to be greedy to survive. If your not greedy u die.

Ok people I had a huge mug of coffee and my head is racing so here we go.

Some questions regarding the greed factor.

1. Do you buy quality shoes?

2. Do you buy quality clothes?

3. Do you buy good running car?

4. Do you eat decent nutritious food?

If you have done any one example above then you have supported that particular manufacturer’s greed or success.

Yes, communists never understood quality and the results were obvious-black markets, mediocre products, no motivation etc.

This is a wonderful subject all worthy to dwell deeply such as -what is quality and how you define it. When you really think deeply quality has a ring of spirituality that is striving to achieve higher efficient cohesive whole, which extracts from us what we carry deeply inside- God realization, harmony, integration, fusion

[Sasun]

Good points Armat, I agree.

 

Shahumian, welcome to HyeForum. So you are for a revolution? Well, revolution involves a lot of violence and blood. Tell me what is better - to be murdered or live in capitalism? And who has the right to kill people anyway? I will tell you what - those who kill the 'buguoise' and plunder their wealth are the most greedy and ignorant people. That is so called revolution as far as I can see.

[Armat]

Shahumian welcome! It is nice to have you here despite of or because of.

[Shahumyan]

Such a nice welcome . I dont wanna stray out from the original topic, but just to answer some of your points...

 

"According to your statistics(and I actually do not know the numbers) what is wrong with an economic system where 90% live above the poverty line?"

-The workers in society give more labour into production than the wage that they get back, is this fair or just? thats whats wrong.

-In any case, the people who scrape above the poverty line still have to work immensley hard, sacrifincing the enjoyment of life, family life, human innovation

 

Also to clarify what is meant by poverty line in the US. This does not mean that they live day to day without food or money, in fact most(not all) live fairly comfortably. most have cable TV and microwave and a roof over their heads. In the US I believe the "poverty line" is set at about 10,000 a year(just under) and 10K can go a long way in certain circumstances.

-By poverty line it is meant the international understanding of.

 

"as for socialism or workers Democracy, it just has not worked in any country for a significant amount of time. It is a failed system as it relies on taxing the rich to death to keep the poor going. And it discourages innovations and growth. "

What your describing there is not a workers democracy. In a workers democracy the capitalists have no private property with which to be taxed.

As for innovation, with a workers dedmocracy there would be greater innovation, and less waste thru duplication eg we have so many messanger services msn, yahoo, aim, icq etc, when we could have one with much better features. this is due to anarchaic nature of capitalism

 

Armat,

if i didnt buy those goods what use and ran to a hill forest and lived like a hippie, what use would i be to the oppressed masses? i live in capitalist system, i cant run away, however i work for its overthrow, so in long term buying trainers makes no hypocritical point

 

Sasun,

i dont aim to go to kill. If i could overthrow capitalism by peaceful methods and end the oppression without violence i would. But the system doesnt allow me to do so. If i cant have a peaceful revolution, what is the alternative?

 

I dont want a revolution for my sake, i have a comfortable life, but i see the injustice and it genuinly burns me up inside, and i dont want it. Somethin must be done, something will be done

[Anileve]

OHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAAAAA we got a real commie here

 

 

No Armat dear, Communism is overrated, now it is the Maoist movement that is taking off. Look at Peru and the countless deaths, terrorism and manipulation of the “Marxist ideas” to gain a political and economic power by no other than the “supposed” working class which is forcing its own people into a severe illegal drug production to save them from the “evil” of capitalism. Ahem ahem, I think it is the smell of BS that is extracting this cough of mine.

 

What does Mr. Kim think about that?

 

http://a740.g.akamai.net/f/740/606/1d/image.pathfinder.com/time/asia/magazine/2000/1225/kim.jpg

 

I think he is applauding Mr. Shahumyan

[Armat]

I dont want a revolution for my sake, i have a comfortable life, but i see the injustice and it genuinly burns me up inside, and i dont want it. Somethin must be done, something will be done

Man you are such romantic character that I am inclined to decline debating with you.

Somehow you make Ara Baliozian shine for the things he writes about isms,revolutions etc.

[Sasun]

Sasun,

i dont aim to go to kill. If i could overthrow capitalism by peaceful methods and end the oppression without violence i would. But the system doesnt allow me to do so. If i cant have a peaceful revolution, what is the alternative?

 

I dont want a revolution for my sake, i have a comfortable life, but i see the injustice and it genuinly burns me up inside, and i dont want it. Somethin must be done, something will be done

Comrade Shahumian, you better stay away from politics and weapons - with your 'humanistic' attitude you are a potential killer, and you are not hiding it. Perhaps something must be done to prevent revolutionaries like you from shedding blood. What kind of crap is this you have no other alternative? The other alternative would be to let people live their lives, don't you get it?

[gurgen]

You can't have peace and order and harmony as long as you have humans. Period.

We just need to accept that and move on, try to make the best of it.

[Shahumyan]

deary deary me...

 

Anileve,

As a Trotskyist ive never supported the ideas of Mao or Maoism etc. As for Kim, hes a brutal dictator who should be overthrown, unless u want to subscribe to Sasuns idea which is to "simply leave the people alone", to starve i suppose?

 

Armat,

Maybe that last line was a bit too romantic , but i hope u dont stop discussing, as this would be terrible thing to happen.

 

Sasun

Are you suggesting we never use violence? Should the Armenian Rebels in Kharabagh instead of defending their lives simply got a microphone and begged for mercy? I dont think this would have succeeded...

If the Armenian government has so much support why did it employ thousands of troops to defend government institutions after the rigged elections? Surely we should support the will of the people for a democracy to come about? What if our glorious leaders dont give us our democracy? Surely we should take it off the elite and have a workers democracy installed where everyone is a part of decision making?

 

Gurgen

I dont think you make any sense at all. If people held your philosophy a couple of hundred years ago and just "made the best of it" then there would still be slaves, are you suggesting this would have been a better option?