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I agree with LK. What have we Armenians (both Diaspora and native) done to secure the nations of Armenia and Artsakh? Can Armenia defend itself against an attack from Turkey? What if Azerbaijan and Turkey attacked at the same time? Does Armenia have enough defense to inflict enough pain on any attackers to deter an attack? Armenia doesn't need the capability to attack and defeat Turkey. What it needs is enough capability to cause serious pain on anyone that attacks, enough pain that it would deter an attack in the first place. Does Armenia have that? If not, why not? Why aren't Armenian entrepreneurs from all over the world going to Armenia and helping it create a defense industry that makes arms for itself and for sale to other countries? Why are we begging to buy weapons from Serbia and Bulgaria, and picking up the old scraps from Russia? How can Armenia defend when it has no defense industry to speak of?

Various Jewish websites and magazines have started putting up polls asking their readers whether Jews should support recognition of the Armenian Genocide legislation in the U.S. Congress. Please go to these websites and cast your vote. http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/home/index.html http://www.thejewishadvocate.com/

As Armenian-Americans, we have a golden opportunity in the next congressional elections to flex our political muscle. A well-known genocide denier and Co-chair of the Congressional Turkey Caucus, Rober Wexler, will be running in 2008 in the 19th District of Florida. He is one of the most open and virulent deniers of the Armenian-Genocide, and is extremely anti-Armenian in every one of his policies. The man running against Wexler is Ben Graber. He has heavily criticized Wexler for his active denial of the Armenian Genocide. See here for more information about Graber's moral stand on this issue: Graber Criticizes Wexler for Genocide Denial I'm not from Florida, but as an Armenia-American, I think it is crucial to our community that we send a message out to all politicians that denying the Genocide will lead to political suicide. This is how the Jewish community operates. They are small, but they put all of their weight against those who oppose their interests. We need to do the same. And we can start by flexing our political muscle against this well-known denier. If Armenians from all across the nation donate their time, money and votes to Graber and help him get elected, this will send an unmistakable message to politicians that denying the Genocide will end their career. So, what should we do: 1. If you live in the 19th Congressional District of Florida, register to vote, and vote for Graber against Wexler. 2. If you don't live in the 19th Congressional District of Florida, then go to Graber's website and donate money to his campaign so that he can put up a strong and hopefully successful fight against Wexler: Graber's Website I really believe we can make an example out of Wexler, and what a better person to make an example of! This guy really needs to go, and to be able to replace him with someone who appears to deeply believe in recognition of the Genocide is an added bonus, and making an example for other politicians to note, is icing on the cake. Let's do this thing! I've already donated to his campaign.

Anyone who thinks our salvation lies in the hands of a non-Armenian power has not read up on our history. I'm not exactly sure when this diseased mentality of reliance injected itself into our genetic code, but it is the sole reason why we are a small and dependent nation. I do not advocate any future wars or battles with Turkey, but if tiny Armenia is going to survive and thrive, we Armenians the world over have to cure our reliance disease. Armenia must become a military power within the next 25 years. It must have a defense industry of its own. Today it has to beg for a few guns from the likes of Serbia. Why aren't the so-called Armenian industrialists and multi-millionaires in Armenia establishing factories to build defense weapons and fighter jets, rather than building cafes? Look at Israel for proof that a small nation can be a powerful one. There is no other way, if we are ever going to rid ourselves of reliance on others. We need to think big and do it! Nothing's impossible. If any nation has the brain-power, it's ours; all we need is the imagination and the will to do it. And again, I'm not saying that this is necessary so we can attack Turkey and take back our historical lands; I'm simply saying this is necessary in order simply to forever secure what we already have.

I meant mostly the ones who have left Yerevan in the first place, and those from the diaspora who may have special expertise.

Amen, I could not agree with you more. We didn't learn our lesson in 1896. We waited 30 years for the Europeans and Russians to come to our rescue and save us from the Bloody Sultan and then the Young Turks. Nobody saved us, and we were too weak and dejected to save ourselves. I wish I were as optimistic as you about what we've learned from the past. But, unfortunately, we are still dependent on Russia, a country who's people hate us and would love nothing more than to see us dead. The Europeans, of course, or less than worthless, because they give us false hope, a false hope that we have sucked up for 150 years. I don't see the Armenian nation (diaspora and the country) doing anything to ensure its longterm survival. I don't see wealthy and learned diasporans going to Armenia and building factories and industries, only churches, apartment buildings, and museums. We should be there building a defense industry, for our own use and for export to countries unlikely to ever attack us. Armenia will always be on the brink of destruction, because we have at least two neighbors who want nothing more than to see us totally erased. The only way to minimize or eliminate this threat is to become a threat, like Israel. If they've taught us anything, it's that a small and seemingly weak people can rise and become a world military superpower. We should be doing the same. I'm not saying we should not build museums and churches, but where are our industrial leaders. Today, we are begging Serbia to sell us a few guns, why don't we manufacture them ourselves? Why don't we build long-range missiles and point them right at Baku and Ankara? Why aren't we sending our brightest minds to Yerevan and funding them to invent new weapons that can be used to defend Armenia so that we don't have to rely on slavic meatheads who hate us? We have lived in America for 90 years, have we learned nothing from the American can-do attitude? What's wrong with us? I know it's not lack of brains, so what is it we are lacking?

Has anyone here ever asked Zurderer his opinion on whether it was a Genocide or not? Z, was what happened to the Armenians during 1915 a Genocide or not? Yes or No?

Isn't it ironic that Turkey would be behind a push for supposed freedom of speech in America? They want supposedly both sides of the story told, yet in Turkey, telling the true side of the story can and will get you a criminal sentence, as Orhan Pamuk and Hrant Dink recently found out. What a joke. But in any case, this lawsuit is awesome! More free press on the Armenian Genocide, and more free press about Turkey's sickening denial. The student who is a plaintiff in the case has said that he actually believes that what happened was a Genocide, but he thinks that both sides should be taught for freedom of speech purposes.

I guess I need to clarify. I realize that Europe is a geographical location. But what I meant to say is that when Armenians say they are European or like Europeans, I think they are thinking of the term "European" as an idealogical identification rather than a geographical identification. And frankly, I tend to hear Armenians argue that they are Western in orientation more than they say they are European. So perhaps your view that the ideology I described is better described as Western has not been lost on most Armenians.

I think most African-Americans would disagree with you that America was the first place to practice the ideology of freedom. Remember slavery was alive and well in America long after it had been shunned in Europe. Europe today is generally a far more liberal place than America. But in any case, I understand your point that Europe is not the only place in the world where liberal democracies flourish. In any case, I think we can all agree that Armenia leans toward being "European" or "Western" more than anything else, and certainly more than any of its neighbors.

I touched on this in the other thread under History, but I think that "Europe" does not so much identify a particular culture as it does a unique idealogy or set of values. There is no one "culture" in Europe. The Swedes have their own culture, holidays, foods, music and traditions, while the Greeks have a totally different set, which is different from the Dutch. But they all embrace a set of values relating to civil rights, women's rights, education, high literacy, respect for different religeons and cultures, etc. I think it is this idealogy that forms the concept of "Europe". It's not a geographic limitation, a religious limitation, or a physical limitation. If Armenians tend to embrace the same values, then we can say that we embrace European values or that our tendencies are European. What's wrong with that. Plus, I think it is true, particularly when compared to everyone else in our neighborhood? Don't we embrace the values of Europe more than we do those of Iran and the rest of the middle east today? Perhaps, we don't fully embrace all of the "European" values that, e.g., Denmark embraces, but we certainly embrace more European values than the majority of Turks and they are aspiring to be part of the EU. So when we hear Armenians saying they are European or more European than others, I think they are referring to European ideals more than they are to geography or genetics, wouldn't you agree that in that sense we are certainly more European than any of our neighbors. Also, if being European is only about the color of your skin, then we are more European than the Portuguese, Italians, and Spaniards, because they are generally darker than us.

Tigran, I think that when people say Armenians are European, they are speaking about our cultural and idealogical similarities. Perhaps we eat foods and listen to music that is similar to the Persians, but we are much more progressive than they are in terms of civil rights, women's rights, education, literacy, etc., which are all European values. In fact, it's probably safe to say that Armenia is the most progressive country in the neighborhood. And my understanding is that Armenians who live in Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Egypt, etc. are relatively liberal compared to the rest of the population. Why is that? It's because we naturally tend to lean toward those ideals that are embraced by European society. As far as our genetics, you said that we are predominantly dark skinned and therefore cannot be European. I don't agree. Most of the Armenians I know have dark hair and eyes, but are as white as any of the Southern Europeans. In fact, I think we are lighter skinned than Spaniards, Portuguese, and Italians (except for Northern/Tyrolean Italians). Does that mean that Spaniards and Italians aren't European? In any case, being European is less about the color of your skin than it is about the values that you foster and embrace. Think of Australia, on the other end of the world, but probably one of the most "European" places on earth.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty.

I suppose your thesis begs the question: If modern Turkey is not the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire, then why does modern Turkey spend so much time, effort, money and human and political capital on denying that the Ottoman Empire committed Genocide? After all, Armenians are not accusing modern Turkey of Genocide, we are accusing the Ottoman Empire of Genocide. Modern Turkey only implicates itself and aligns itself with the perpetrators by futily denying this fact rather than aligning itself with the righteous examples of its nation who saved Armenian lives during the Genocide.

http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=...37138459&mid=41 Above is a link to an article on Yahoo news about Turkey's new method of denial. the message boards there are flooded with Turks who reinforce the lies. Perhaps some of you may find it interesting what they have to say and would like to add your views.