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I agree with LK. What have we Armenians (both Diaspora and native) done to secure the nations of Armenia and Artsakh? Can Armenia defend itself against an attack from Turkey? What if Azerbaijan and Turkey attacked at the same time? Does Armenia have enough defense to inflict enough pain on any attackers to deter an attack? Armenia doesn't need the capability to attack and defeat Turkey. What it needs is enough capability to cause serious pain on anyone that attacks, enough pain that it would deter an attack in the first place. Does Armenia have that? If not, why not? Why aren't Armenian entrepreneurs from all over the world going to Armenia and helping it create a defense industry that makes arms for itself and for sale to other countries? Why are we begging to buy weapons from Serbia and Bulgaria, and picking up the old scraps from Russia? How can Armenia defend when it has no defense industry to speak of?

Various Jewish websites and magazines have started putting up polls asking their readers whether Jews should support recognition of the Armenian Genocide legislation in the U.S. Congress. Please go to these websites and cast your vote. http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/home/index.html http://www.thejewishadvocate.com/

As Armenian-Americans, we have a golden opportunity in the next congressional elections to flex our political muscle. A well-known genocide denier and Co-chair of the Congressional Turkey Caucus, Rober Wexler, will be running in 2008 in the 19th District of Florida. He is one of the most open and virulent deniers of the Armenian-Genocide, and is extremely anti-Armenian in every one of his policies. The man running against Wexler is Ben Graber. He has heavily criticized Wexler for his active denial of the Armenian Genocide. See here for more information about Graber's moral stand on this issue: Graber Criticizes Wexler for Genocide Denial I'm not from Florida, but as an Armenia-American, I think it is crucial to our community that we send a message out to all politicians that denying the Genocide will lead to political suicide. This is how the Jewish community operates. They are small, but they put all of their weight against those who oppose their interests. We need to do the same. And we can start by flexing our political muscle against this well-known denier. If Armenians from all across the nation donate their time, money and votes to Graber and help him get elected, this will send an unmistakable message to politicians that denying the Genocide will end their career. So, what should we do: 1. If you live in the 19th Congressional District of Florida, register to vote, and vote for Graber against Wexler. 2. If you don't live in the 19th Congressional District of Florida, then go to Graber's website and donate money to his campaign so that he can put up a strong and hopefully successful fight against Wexler: Graber's Website I really believe we can make an example out of Wexler, and what a better person to make an example of! This guy really needs to go, and to be able to replace him with someone who appears to deeply believe in recognition of the Genocide is an added bonus, and making an example for other politicians to note, is icing on the cake. Let's do this thing! I've already donated to his campaign.

Anyone who thinks our salvation lies in the hands of a non-Armenian power has not read up on our history. I'm not exactly sure when this diseased mentality of reliance injected itself into our genetic code, but it is the sole reason why we are a small and dependent nation. I do not advocate any future wars or battles with Turkey, but if tiny Armenia is going to survive and thrive, we Armenians the world over have to cure our reliance disease. Armenia must become a military power within the next 25 years. It must have a defense industry of its own. Today it has to beg for a few guns from the likes of Serbia. Why aren't the so-called Armenian industrialists and multi-millionaires in Armenia establishing factories to build defense weapons and fighter jets, rather than building cafes? Look at Israel for proof that a small nation can be a powerful one. There is no other way, if we are ever going to rid ourselves of reliance on others. We need to think big and do it! Nothing's impossible. If any nation has the brain-power, it's ours; all we need is the imagination and the will to do it. And again, I'm not saying that this is necessary so we can attack Turkey and take back our historical lands; I'm simply saying this is necessary in order simply to forever secure what we already have.

I meant mostly the ones who have left Yerevan in the first place, and those from the diaspora who may have special expertise.

Amen, I could not agree with you more. We didn't learn our lesson in 1896. We waited 30 years for the Europeans and Russians to come to our rescue and save us from the Bloody Sultan and then the Young Turks. Nobody saved us, and we were too weak and dejected to save ourselves. I wish I were as optimistic as you about what we've learned from the past. But, unfortunately, we are still dependent on Russia, a country who's people hate us and would love nothing more than to see us dead. The Europeans, of course, or less than worthless, because they give us false hope, a false hope that we have sucked up for 150 years. I don't see the Armenian nation (diaspora and the country) doing anything to ensure its longterm survival. I don't see wealthy and learned diasporans going to Armenia and building factories and industries, only churches, apartment buildings, and museums. We should be there building a defense industry, for our own use and for export to countries unlikely to ever attack us. Armenia will always be on the brink of destruction, because we have at least two neighbors who want nothing more than to see us totally erased. The only way to minimize or eliminate this threat is to become a threat, like Israel. If they've taught us anything, it's that a small and seemingly weak people can rise and become a world military superpower. We should be doing the same. I'm not saying we should not build museums and churches, but where are our industrial leaders. Today, we are begging Serbia to sell us a few guns, why don't we manufacture them ourselves? Why don't we build long-range missiles and point them right at Baku and Ankara? Why aren't we sending our brightest minds to Yerevan and funding them to invent new weapons that can be used to defend Armenia so that we don't have to rely on slavic meatheads who hate us? We have lived in America for 90 years, have we learned nothing from the American can-do attitude? What's wrong with us? I know it's not lack of brains, so what is it we are lacking?

Has anyone here ever asked Zurderer his opinion on whether it was a Genocide or not? Z, was what happened to the Armenians during 1915 a Genocide or not? Yes or No?

Isn't it ironic that Turkey would be behind a push for supposed freedom of speech in America? They want supposedly both sides of the story told, yet in Turkey, telling the true side of the story can and will get you a criminal sentence, as Orhan Pamuk and Hrant Dink recently found out. What a joke. But in any case, this lawsuit is awesome! More free press on the Armenian Genocide, and more free press about Turkey's sickening denial. The student who is a plaintiff in the case has said that he actually believes that what happened was a Genocide, but he thinks that both sides should be taught for freedom of speech purposes.

I guess I need to clarify. I realize that Europe is a geographical location. But what I meant to say is that when Armenians say they are European or like Europeans, I think they are thinking of the term "European" as an idealogical identification rather than a geographical identification. And frankly, I tend to hear Armenians argue that they are Western in orientation more than they say they are European. So perhaps your view that the ideology I described is better described as Western has not been lost on most Armenians.

I think most African-Americans would disagree with you that America was the first place to practice the ideology of freedom. Remember slavery was alive and well in America long after it had been shunned in Europe. Europe today is generally a far more liberal place than America. But in any case, I understand your point that Europe is not the only place in the world where liberal democracies flourish. In any case, I think we can all agree that Armenia leans toward being "European" or "Western" more than anything else, and certainly more than any of its neighbors.

I touched on this in the other thread under History, but I think that "Europe" does not so much identify a particular culture as it does a unique idealogy or set of values. There is no one "culture" in Europe. The Swedes have their own culture, holidays, foods, music and traditions, while the Greeks have a totally different set, which is different from the Dutch. But they all embrace a set of values relating to civil rights, women's rights, education, high literacy, respect for different religeons and cultures, etc. I think it is this idealogy that forms the concept of "Europe". It's not a geographic limitation, a religious limitation, or a physical limitation. If Armenians tend to embrace the same values, then we can say that we embrace European values or that our tendencies are European. What's wrong with that. Plus, I think it is true, particularly when compared to everyone else in our neighborhood? Don't we embrace the values of Europe more than we do those of Iran and the rest of the middle east today? Perhaps, we don't fully embrace all of the "European" values that, e.g., Denmark embraces, but we certainly embrace more European values than the majority of Turks and they are aspiring to be part of the EU. So when we hear Armenians saying they are European or more European than others, I think they are referring to European ideals more than they are to geography or genetics, wouldn't you agree that in that sense we are certainly more European than any of our neighbors. Also, if being European is only about the color of your skin, then we are more European than the Portuguese, Italians, and Spaniards, because they are generally darker than us.

Tigran, I think that when people say Armenians are European, they are speaking about our cultural and idealogical similarities. Perhaps we eat foods and listen to music that is similar to the Persians, but we are much more progressive than they are in terms of civil rights, women's rights, education, literacy, etc., which are all European values. In fact, it's probably safe to say that Armenia is the most progressive country in the neighborhood. And my understanding is that Armenians who live in Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Egypt, etc. are relatively liberal compared to the rest of the population. Why is that? It's because we naturally tend to lean toward those ideals that are embraced by European society. As far as our genetics, you said that we are predominantly dark skinned and therefore cannot be European. I don't agree. Most of the Armenians I know have dark hair and eyes, but are as white as any of the Southern Europeans. In fact, I think we are lighter skinned than Spaniards, Portuguese, and Italians (except for Northern/Tyrolean Italians). Does that mean that Spaniards and Italians aren't European? In any case, being European is less about the color of your skin than it is about the values that you foster and embrace. Think of Australia, on the other end of the world, but probably one of the most "European" places on earth.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty.

I suppose your thesis begs the question: If modern Turkey is not the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire, then why does modern Turkey spend so much time, effort, money and human and political capital on denying that the Ottoman Empire committed Genocide? After all, Armenians are not accusing modern Turkey of Genocide, we are accusing the Ottoman Empire of Genocide. Modern Turkey only implicates itself and aligns itself with the perpetrators by futily denying this fact rather than aligning itself with the righteous examples of its nation who saved Armenian lives during the Genocide.

http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=...37138459&mid=41 Above is a link to an article on Yahoo news about Turkey's new method of denial. the message boards there are flooded with Turks who reinforce the lies. Perhaps some of you may find it interesting what they have to say and would like to add your views.

I don't think there is anything hypocritical or immoral about defending yourself from complete annihlation. This is what would have happened to the Armenians of Karabagh had they not fought back and defended themselves. But I don't blame you for not knowing the history of the conflict, what it's about, and how it has been conducted. There was a study done on this conflict a couple of years ago by the New England Center for International Law and Policy, a U.S. think tank. You can read the full report at http://www.nesl.edu/center/pubs/nagorno.pdf if you want to learn about this conflict. It is almost 50 pages long, but for those interested in learning about this conflict, it is a fascinating synopsis. Here's a summary of the report. Armenians had been living in Karabagh for centuries. When the USSR took over the Caucasus after WWI as part of their agreement with the Turks, they separated the Armenians of Karabagh from the Armenians of Armenia. They gave Karabagh to become part of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which was a Turkic republic. So the Armenians of Karabagh became separated from the Armenians of Armenia. Karabagh at that time was almost entirely Armenian. Within the next 75 years, the Azeris repopulated Karabagh with Azeri Turks, thus reducing the percentage of Armenians in that region to about 75% of the population. When the USSR began to disintegrate during the late 80s, the people of Karabagh agitated to reunite with Armenia rather than stay as part of Azerbaijan. They knew that as Christian Armenians, they would be second class citizens once Azerbaijan became its own country and didn't have to conform to the rules of the Soviets. Up until then, the Soviets were able to keep the Azeri Turks under control and keep the peace between the Armenians and the Azeris. But the Armenians realized that without Russian influence, the Armenians would be in great jeopardy under the Azeris. So they began forming political parties and calling for a referendum to cecede from the USSR and from Azerbaijan. The Azeris were deeply offended by this, and began massacring Armenians living in Azerbaijan in the cities of Sumgait, Baku and a few others. It became clear at that time that Armenians living under Azeri control would be severely persecuted and that another ethnic cleansing like what happened to the Armenians during the Genocide of 1915 was imminent. So the people of Karabagh held a referendum and voted to cecede from Azerbaijan, in exactly the same way that the Azeris, Armenians and other former Soviet republics voted to cecede from the USSR. It was a completely lawful action taken without violence. The Azeris responded swiftly by attacking the capital of the new republic of Karabagh, Stepanakert. They began decimating the city. The Armenians of Karabagh had two choices: 1) defend themselves; or 2) give up and live/die under the control of the Azeris. They knew that option number 2 meant annhilation. That was clear from the fact that the Armenians from every other part of Azerbaijan had already been driven out, and no Armenians remained within Azerbaijan, where just recently almost 400,000 Armenians lived in the major cities of Azerbaijan. There are many Armenian refugees from Baku living all over the world, and I know several Armenians families from there living in my community in California. Anyway, the Karabagh Armenians elected to defend themselves and their homeland, and that's what they did. They did it so well, in fact, that they drove the Azeris away and even took some land from the Azeris. At that point, mediators stepped and in and called for a cease-fire. The Azeris broke that cease fire over a dozen times, and each time they broke it, the Armenians took more land. In 1994, a final cease-fire was brokered, and that has been the status quo ever since. The war resulted in approximately 30,000 casualties from both sides, and between 750000 and 1 million refugees from both sides. During the war, both sides committed atrocities against one another. Because the Azeris lost, they would like the world to feel sorry for them and they try to make themselves look like the underdog victims. But the reality is that the Karabagh Armenians were not only the underdogs, but they were the ones who were attacked first. Karabagh has a population of no more than 160,000 people. No doubt that Armenia helped them during this war, but Armenia only has a population of no more than 3,000,000 people. The Azeris have over 8,000,000; they have unlimited supplies of oil; they had help from Turkey who not only trained their soldiers and gave them military equipment, but also instituted a full economic blockade of Armenia. The Azeris will tell you that Russia saved the Armenians, but Russia actually fought for both sides, plus the Azeris also had the help of Muslim Chechen soldiers and Mujahadeen from Afghanistan who were both fighting for the Azeris. And despite all of that, they still lost. If any one group of people deserve freedom in this world, it's the Karabagh people. They tried to gain their freedom peacefully, and when that failed, they defended themselves and shed much blood to gain that freedom. And now when you compare the governments of Karabagh and Azerbaijan, you'll see that Karabagh has demonstrated a propensity for a democratic way of life, while Azerbaijan is one of the least free countries in the world. Karabagh is even more democratic than Armenia, let alone Azerbaijan. This is why they fought and died, so they could live a peaceful, democratic, and prosperous existence. That's a summary. If you want more detail, you can read the report that I've summarized.

I agree with Domino. This statement that some retarded third rate supposed diplomat/politician made was not directed to NK. And even if it was, which it wasn't, does it further our interests to rehash it and publicize it to the nth degree. I think we should completely ignore it, otherwise it brings us negative attention. This statement wasn't even directed at NK, but those who know nothing about NK might assume that it was directed at NK because of all the stink we are making about it, and they will further assume that since a US diplomat said it, it must be true. Not all publicity is good publicity, and this is not good publicity. If we hadn't made a stink about it, nobody (other than the Azeris) would have bothered to read into it the way we have, and nobody would have thought it was directed to NK.

Amen!

True that! But let me tell you, every time I have to promise myself that I will remain calm and not get into an insult war with these people. And usually I manage to keep my answers directed at the topic and stay focused, but it is very difficult, because I attract the insults based solely on the position that I take. These forums are not designed for rational, objective, and unheated discussions. There is no control or no neutral bystander who steers the topic or mediates. Thus, it eventually turns into a situation where I am called a liar/fabricator/dirty lawyer, etc., and then the discussion ends, because I stop talking at that point. Denialists are good at changing the subject, deflecting, bringing up irrelevant facts or issues, and calling names, as you well know. Yes, I can't help myself, but at the same time, I feel stupid for bothering with these people in these forums. By the way, to this day, I have never heard any Turk respond to the fact that in 1919, Turkish officials put the murder count during the deportations at 800,000. Have you ever heard an answer from a denialist about this fact? How do they manage to ignore it and still claim that only 300,000 Armenians were killed?

You know, I haven't been back to Bolis since I left there when I was 4, so I don't know about that cafe. My dad lives there though, and I can ask for the names of some good restaurants and find out if Naregatsi is any good. I'll also ask him if he knows of any other good Armenian owned restaurants.

Thanks Domino. The more I learn about the Genocide, the more irritated I get at the shallow denials you hear from Turkish people on the Internet. They seem so convinced of their position. Sometimes, I'm even convinced that they believe what they are saying. But with the ones who know more than the usual shallow "back-stabber" excuses, I think they know that it was a Genocide, but they are so afraid of it becoming common knowledge or acknowledged by Turkey, because they think they'll have to pay Armenians money or give up land. I think that the average Turk would rather cut off their own testicles and store them in a jar next to their bed than give Armenians anything, much less money or land. They don't like us, and with each passing day, I think they hate us even more, because of the seemingly renewed interest in this subject by academics and increased acknowledgment of the Genocide by goverments and also because of Karabagh. Anyway, it makes me sad, because I don't hate Turks and I don't want to hate them even though they do so much harm to Armenia and to Armenian history. I wish they would shape up so that I could feel good for once for coming from Turkey.

Easy there buddy! It's not a good idea to be so divisive. Besides, didn't you hear the most recent info to come out of Bolis is that the Patriarch there publicly spoke some very braves words about the 90th Anniversary of the Genocide. See the California Courier's most recent discussion about this on Groong. Anyway, we should all want Turkey to join the EU after it acknowledges the Genocide and opens its borders. That would be a good thing for Armenia to have a European and presumably less belligerent neighbor, wouldn't it?!.

They don't ignore them, they just deny that he ever made those comments.

Domino, I can't believe that that letter is 2 years old. I didn't realize you had done so much research by that time. That means that you have been studying this matter for 5 years now. WOW! That's amazing, no wonder you know so damn much. These people at Turkey.com really have no hope whatsoever of making rational arguments to overcome the barrage of facts that you incorporate into each one of your posts. It's really fun to watch. Every time you post something intelligent and thought-provoking, the response is always a personal attack against you. I have yet to see a single response on the merits or facts. Never a response to the message; always an attack on the messenger's character. It's pathetic. Keep up the good work. What we need to do is clone you.

Steve, I know you are dissappointed in Armenians for not showing more interest in their historical and cultural monuments. And you have every right to be. I'm disspointed myself. I think the problem is that we spend so much time on the following problems that we have little time left for the myriad other problems that exist: righting a monumental wrong that was done to our ancestors; ensuring that both Armenia and Karabagh survive and prosper. With respect to the latter, speaking for myself, I have to say that I am constantly inundated with fund raising projects and calls for donations and contributions relating to one need or another in Armenia. And they're all real and they're all deserving of my attention and money. From the outside it may seem to you that Armenians are complacent, but I know of only one other community in this world that pulls together the way we do. An entire country is surviving today largely, if not entirely, because of the Diaspora. But I do want to thank you on behalf of Armenians for taking such a sincere interest in our historical monuments. It is wonderful, for once, to see a non-Armenian take such a leading role in an area that we ourselves have neglected.