phantom

Is this your web site Bell? The page dedicated to the Varzahan churches states that they were completely demolished sometime between the 1920s and 1950. How was that determined to be the case? What is the information that forms the basis of that statement? Do we know what the stated reason for the demolition was?

What's PM? And did you get my email?

Vigil, That was genius of you to copy and save Domino's most recent post at the Turkey forum. I was fortunate enough to have read the whole thing, and when I hit reply, the whole thread had been deleted, and I couldn't read it again. I was so mad at myself for not having copied it, and now I am so glad to find out that you have saved it. That was a lot of work, and it was truly a heroic effort by Domino, which, of course, was totally ignored by the retards who deny something they don't know anything about. Discussing the Genocide there is like talking to a brick wall. And the admin there obviously knows there was a Genocide, which is why he deletes Domino's posts. He is afraid that someone else might learn something outside of the usual Turkish denial formula. Domino, I'm sorry your post got deleted. I've made my complaints as public as I can, and right now I am too mad at the censorship of your thread to think rationally.

TK, it is a boon to us that a freak from Turkey has sued France over Genocide recognition. It just makes denialists look even worse. Imagine the lengths they'll go to in order to deny what everyone else has accepted? I'm so happy that the European court accepted the case, because as I said in another post, there's no such thing as bad publicity when you've got truth on your side.

Actually, it benefits the Armenian position when Turkey protests Genocide recognition and makes additional outlandish claims, such as how Armenians massacred Turks. There's no such thing as bad publicity, especially when truth is on your side.

I think we should ask this Clark bozo what it was that effected such a profound change in his attitude towards the Genocide? And why should we trust what he has to say now? It wasn't that long ago that he helped kill the Genocide Resolution, and now all of a sudden he has seen the light!

Have Nasty's posts always been this stupid, and I just wasn't paying attention, or are they degenerating over time? I sent out a search party to find his point and came up empty!

Yalpa, Isn't Halacoglu Turkey's current mouthpiece? Can't his arguments be attributed to the official Turkish government position regarding the Genocide? And if his arguments can be so easily refuted, then doesn't that suggest that the official Turkish government arguments aren't worth a horsefly? I think this is why Domino is currently preoccupied with Halacoglu.

Personally, I have no problem with Dan using the British flag as his avatar. And I also see no problem with him being proud of his British heritage. Let's face it, even though many of the evils and catastrophes of modern history were caused by British imperialism, the Brits are a proud and accomplished people, and a Brit has much to be proud of. Sir Isaac Newton was British , and where would we be today without him! But Dan, I think you just sort of got off on the wrong foot here, because of your "observations", which I believe are unfair stereotypes about your own people. You say they are fair because they are true, and again, I cannot accept such broad and overreaching stereotypes about anyone, including my own people. I wonder if you ever go to British forums and criticize British culture or stereotype the Brits?

Dan, I find your claims hard to believe, unless for some reason Toronto Armenians are somehow different from all other Armenians. I know Armenians from all across the United States, Istanbul, France, Beirut, and Armenia, and I'm quite convinced that 90% of them are not gossip queens with nothing better to do with their spare time than to gossip about others. I was involved in the Armenian Students Association when I went to college, and I had a wonderful experience with the friends that I made there. And almost ten years later, I am still extremely close to some of the friends I made through the ASA. But you're right in that I've never been to Toronto. So I guess I can't comment one way or the other about the Toronto Armenians. That notwithstanding, based on my impressions of the Armenians who I have met, I respectfully decline to accept your "observations" about the Toronto Armenians.

I agree with Dan to the extent that I think black Americans are more respected than Armenians for at least two reasons: 1) black Americans have a much longer and richer history in this country; and 2) few Americans know what an Armenian is, so they can't respect who they don't know. Regarding the first reason, black Americans have contributed in countless ways to the enrichment of American culture. For example, they were at the forefront of new and revolutionary forms of music, such as Jazz and Rock n' Roll; their churches have enriched and enlivened the Christian religeon here in the United States; their writers and poets, such as Maya Angelou, have given us a new American perspective; their political activism has benefited all of us by further securing our rights and liberties; they are at the forefront of American pop culture and American sports culture. The list goes on and on. Dan, regarding the rest of your post, I take issue with your destructive criticism of our people. I know it is the belief of some here that we Armenians could use a little criticism, but there's a difference between constructive criticism and destructive criticism and unfair generalizations. You will never be able to convince me that MOST Armenians in Toronto have no other occupation than gossiping. These types of overreaching generalizations that you make are unfair and uncalled for. If your characterization of Armenians was true, then we wouldn't be achieving anything in this world, which obviously isn't the case. For example, just last week an Armenian named Nerses Krikorian won the Los Alamos National Laboratory Medal for his scientific achievements at the Los Alamos National Laboratory. That is the highest honor that any scientist can get from the Los Alamos Laboratory. Another example: Associate Professor Levon Khachigian of the UNSW Centre for Vascular Research just recently won the prestigious University of New South Wales Eureka Prize for Scientific Research. The prize is awarded for outstanding, curiosity-driven scientific research by an Australian scientist under the age of 40, which is judged to be under-appreciated by the Australian public. Professor Khachigian won for his innovative research that has greatly increased our understanding of the basic molecular mechanisms of how harmful genes are switched on and off in cells of the artery wall, and for developing new DNA-based drugs that block arterial renarrowing after balloon angioplasty and solid tumour growth. His ground-breaking work has been published in top scientific journals such as Nature Medicine and Science. Another example: Armenia’s Cosmic Ray Division (CRD), coined “A Space Weather Aerie”, by Richard Stone of SCIENCE magazine in the August 29 issue, has been selected by the World Summit Awards (WSA) grand jury for having one of the top 5 WSA products in the category of e-science. Its web site DVIN for ASEC (Data Visualization Interactive Network for Aragats Space Environmental Center) was selected out 800 projects from 136 countries nominated for this competition. The winners were selected during deliberations from October 17 to 22 by experts from 36 countries. Now, if all that Armenians ever did was gossip, we wouldn't have much time to strive for such amazing achievements.

Sev Mard brings up a good point. From the outside, we appear to be extremely united. One of the comments I hear most from odars when they find out I am Armenian is that, oh, you guys are a really tight-knit group. I usually just smile and nod my head. Why is it that everyone thinks we are close-knit, but we think we are totally disbanded?

No, that's not right at all, those people should be deported if they are scamming the system. But that's just a small percentage of the Armenian population, and they are only the newly arrived immigrants. The vast majority of Armenians are fiscally responsible.

Well, it certainly is true that everybody is always sticking their nose in your business, that's for sure. I don't know, personally I attribute whatever success I've achieved in America to my parents' constant encouragement to continue with my education and strive for excellence. I remember my dad giving me a choice when I was just a sophomore in high school. I would work every summer at his small clothing factory in a dingy building in downtown L.A. with grafitti-filled bathrooms, and one day he asked me if I wanted to go to college. I said yes, and he said, good, because if you don't go to college, your only other option is to come here and work with me every day. I couldn't run to college fast enough after he said that .

Yes, there is one good thing about this war: Saddam is gone. Saddam gassed over 100,000 of his own citizens to death, and caused cancer and illness among the survivors. They keep finding mass grave after mass grave of political prisoners that he murdered. Most of the Iraqis that are being killed now are his supporters. If they stopped fighting and allowed their country to move peacefully toward democracy, the fighting and death would end. The American troops aren't running around shooting people and massacring innocent civilians. They are merely defending themselves from attack, and in doing so, some innocent people are getting killed as a result of collateral damage. I think it is safe to say that EVERYONE wants this war to be over; Americans, Europeans, our soldiers, our soldiers' families, the majority of Iraqis, the Turks, everyone, even our administration wants this war to be over. But the Iraqi opposition refuses peace, they continue with their petty assaults, and that's why people continue to die. I trust the administration only because it is in their best interest to ensure that peace and prosperity return to Iraq as soon as possible. The oil companies want democracy and a free market to return to Iraq, because they can get rich under those circumstances. Bush wants whatever the oil companies want. Furthermore, the American public is getting restless, and Bush is under pressure to show some marked improvement over there. Therefore, it is in his best interest and in the best interest of the Republican party to ensure that peace is finally achieved in Iraq. Those are the reasons why I believe that we will remain in Iraq until we make a lasting and meaningful difference. You can never believe what the administration says. Only by analyzing the interests of the administration can you determine what they might do.

Dan, It seems to me that some of your assumptions about America are equally off base. Given that you characterize America as a country "based on slavery and intolerance", your extreme bias is duly noted. America is no more based on slavery and intolerance than your great country of England. Furthermore, your basic assumption is that everyone here has to agree with your assessment of the American government's policies. We don't all have to agree with you, and this issue about our presence in Iraq is not as black and white as you suggest. Also, I have to confess that I am annoyed with people who claim that those who agree with our foreign policy are just cowards who don't want to voice their opinion for fear of being labeled unpatriotic. In fact, I am just as annoyed by those people as I am by the people who call protestors unpatriotic. The fact is, in America we are free to believe what we want and voice our opinions if we so chose. Those who call war protestors unpatriotic are idiots, and those who call supporters of the war cowards are also idiots. Finally, I want to say something about this war in Iraq. I find it ironic that an Armenian who wants the world to recognize the Genocide can also be against this war in Iraq. As an Armenian, I personally support this war, not for the false reasons given by the lying war hawkes who forced this war on the American people, but because Saddam had to be removed, plain and simple. The man committed a genocide against his own people, and he would have no problems doing it again. This kind of person should not be allowed to remain in power, and the world powers should make it their responsibility to ensure that such genocidal maniacs do not commit further genocides. If the U.S. or Great Britain or France had stepped in to prevent the Turks from exterminating us, so many of our ancestors would not have died. That's why I support this war in Iraq, and that's why I supported the war in Afghanistan against the Taliban, who were also bad people. I realize that our government isn't engaged in these wars for the sake of protecting the powerless victims of these brutal regimes, but I don't care. We removed a genocidal maniac, and even if it was for the wrong reasons, it was the right thing to do.

I'm not so sure that I agree with all that you have said, although some of it seems plausible. Most of what I am going to say here is merely my personal experience and anecdotal, but it provides at least some evidence that Armenians in America aren't just succeeding because they adopt American values. Almost every Armenian that I know has become successful in this country within one generation. The family comes here and struggles to achieve and maintain at least a middle class existence so that their children have at least the same opportunities as the rest of the majority of the country. The children go on to become valuable members of society, contributing in many different fields ranging from law, medicine, government, small and big business, science, etc. I don't think I know any 30 year old Armenian (even the ones who weren't born here) who isn't either an engineer, a doctor, a lawyer, an accountant, a financial advisor, a scientist, a successful small business owner, or at least in mid management in a large company and upwardly mobile. It is my belief that Armenians in America are attending universities in numbers disproportionate to the rest of Caucasian Americans, and obtaining post-graduate degrees in numbers disproportionate to the rest of Caucasian Americans. It is my belief that Armenians are prospering in their careers and financial situations in disproportionate numbers. While many minorities (and the majority of white Americans also) continue to struggle generation after generation to achieve the American dream, I think Armenians have demonstrated that they are able to achieve it quickly and in disproportionate numbers. This must mean that they are not just adopting American values. Yes, they have shown that they can easily adjust to the American work ethic, but they must be doing something else, something that perhaps adds additional value to the benefits gained from adopting American values and the American work ethic. I'm not sure what that is, but whatever it is, it must be something that we imported with us when we came here, and not something that we learned here.

PiggyWiggy, you're in high school. It's just a small four years of your entire life. While it may seem that it's the real world, it's not. Trust me. That's how I used to think too, but there is a whole different world beyond high school, (and even beyond college, I'm sure, since I'm in college now)... An entirely different world where you can say "I am Armenian" and it's not going to hurt your reputation. Good point Anoushik. I have a Persian friend with an "ian" last name who is now a surgical resident. All through medical school he would tell people that he was Armenian rather than Persian, because he said that people generally have the perception that Armenians are hard workers and intelligent. Obviously the perception doesn't correspond with reality given that Persians are no less hard working or intelligent, but it just shows that Piggy's negative perception of Armenians probably isn't the prevalent perception, at least not in America.

There are lots of different organizations throughout the world that are trying to make a difference in Armenia. It is difficult, though, because government officials make it extremely difficult to help those in need unless they get their cut. It is ridiculous to me that one has to bribe officials in Armenia in order to give to the poor, or to donate to various groups or organizations in Armenia. I belong to the Knights of Vartan, which is an organization that has done a great deal to cut through much of the red tape. For example, my chapter of the Knights raises money every year in our community here in America, and whatever we've raised that year is taken to one of several schools that we sponsor in Armenia. One of our brothers also has a house in Armenia, so every year he goes there with the money and personally hires the contractors and buys the materials and supervises the work to make sure that it is completed under budget and that none of it is wasted on bribes. He video tapes the work including before and after shots so that we can see the progress that was made. This year we fixed all of the broken windows, bathrooms, and gymnasium and put in a new computer lab in one school. Next year, we will probably continue working on that school, because there is so much more to do there. If there wasn't so much corruption in Armenia, we could make even greater progress. By the way, I read this story on Armenianow last week, and I was equally appalled. That weekly magazine has at least one story every week that shocks me and discourages me with respect to Armenia. The stories that anger me the most, however, are the ones that show the greed of Armenia's power families. For example, one story from two or three weeks ago was about one of the ministers, the one who is actually in charge of the environment. He was cutting down trees that were endangered and putting them in his families restaurants. Can you imagine that!

Well, not much has changed. Most of them are still rather pathetic, including Miss Armenia, who is really just a child at 17 years old. But still it's sad that they could not come up with 12,000 to send the winner of the Miss Armenia contest to the Miss World event.

That's a good question. I think that events like Miss World could be valuable in terms of public exposure for small countries like Armenia.

Have you guys seen this article. It really depressed me. Last week I read an article in the same online newspaper that someone in Armenia had purchased a $350,000 Maybach automobile, and that more and more people were driving expensive Mercedes, BMW's, Hummers, etc. None of these rich Armenians is willing to cough up the $12,000 (1/30th the price of a Maybach) to preserve the national honor of Armenia and to send this girl into the Miss World competition (the title of which is currently held by Turkey, by the way). But I'm sure someone from the Diaspora will come up with the money after reading this article. http://www.armenianow.com/2003/november21/.../miss/index.asp

Kendini burda rezil etmeyemi calisiyorsun? Domino is right about one thing, you have an extremely short memory. All of your worthless posts about Karabagh and the Genocide have been addressed here and at Turkey.com at infinitem, yet you come back with the same childish responses. Please, stop being so tembel (lazy) and read something new and then come back. You definitely need some new material.

So I guess what you're saying is that American missionaries were ALL lying; that the German, Swiss, Swedish, Italian, Austrian, Danish, French, Turkish, and Russian diplomats, missionaries, soldiers, journalists, and photographers who formed the basis for those articles and for our current knowledge of the Genocide are all liars. Only the Turks can be trusted, is that right? Lutven salak salak conusmayi birak. Biz yutmayiz!

PRESS RELEASE TÜDAY (Human Rights Society Turkey-Germany) Melchiorstr.3, 50670 Köln, Tel. 0221/72 40 77 Telefax: 0221/739 24 24 Contact person: Mrs. Hülya Engin email: barisicintarih@hotmail.com TÜDAY welcomes and supports the demands of the initiative "History for Peace." For the first time Turkish intellectuals unanimously express their point of view on a taboo in Turkey, namely the "Armenian Question" "NO to animosity and discrimination in education" "NO to brainwashing of children and the youth" Artists, Academics, Educators and Lawyers in Turkey found the initiative "History for Peace." Instruction of History should be free of censorship and manipulation More than 300 renowned personalities in public life of Turkey ­ artists, lawyers, university teachers, educators, union-workers, retired military judges, journalists and historians ­ address the ministry of education of Turkey with the initiative "History for Piece", demanding that it withdraw the circular of April 14, 2003 which prescribes a deliberate falsification of history in school books and instruction. This circular requires that schools and secondary school teachers create a new subject with the objective to invalidate the "baseless allegations of Armenians, Pontian Greeks and Syriac Orthodox." Curricula and textbooks are now to be correspondingly revised and rewritten. Teachers are to be trained in special continuing education centers to become agents of a denial policy. Essay competitions for pupils are being held in schools (under the motto: "Who will write the most nationalistic, anti-Armenian essay?"). In the October 4, 2003 declaration of the initiative we read: "As citizens and parents we are deeply concerned about the ministry of education's new guidelines which introduce changes in history curricula and textbooks. Any one-sided point of view, regardless of thoughts and goals behind it, should not determine a country's educational policy, particularly when the latter has the potential of provoking a political conflict. We want our children to be taught in accordance with international directives that are binding on the instruction of controversial and explosive topics in schools. We want our children to be brought up in a spirit of respect and tolerance to others, of agreement between nations and ethnic groups, of mutual understanding and trust. As we are reminded by the Europe-Counsel's 31.10.2001 decision, also signed by Turkey, "History education is the basis for a democratic Europe." Not only international agreements but also our statutes and laws forbid the abuse of history instruction and its use as a means to discriminate ethnic groups and to violate human rights. The above-mentioned circular demands that in new textbooks, Armenians, Greeks and Syriac Orthodox be presented as enemies. Our examination and observation group indicates that in certain sections of new textbooks Armenians, Pontian Greeks and Syriac Orthodox are repeatedly characterized as "enemies", "spies","traitors" and "barbarians." Synagogues and churches of minorities are called "dangerous communities." The Church as an institution is equated with "terror." We, the undersigned of this declaration, demand the immediate removal of this measure carried out by the Ministry of Education. Each positive step in this direction is a step towards the democratization and elevation of educational standards, as well as to the respect for human rights." We from the TÜDAY support the long-term efforts of this initiative, which is joined by a growing number of intellectuals. We will keep you informed about newer developments in this movement.