Armenians Without Ian Last Names....

[Zartonk]

Not at all. -ian is in fact common in Iranian last names, and is possibly an Iranian loan. It does not necceraly suggest an Armenian connection. On the other hand, converts are extremely rare, although I met a few.

[Saramelkonian]

Am I reading yo correctlly?

Are you sayimg that the -ian style of Armenian surnames was imposed by the Turks?

Then, how do we explain names like Mamikonian, Timaksian, Capeghian et al along with Artsruni, Amatuni of the Battle of Avarayr fame? That was well over a thousand years before anyone had heard of Turks.

 

I don't know, it may be that the information I read was incorrect (I wasn't saying that this was the case, only that I had read somewhere that it was the case, that at some point after taking over their land, the Turks re-named all the Armenians. I think it may have been in "The Burning Tigris"? ....now I'll have to go re-read and see if I can find it. I may have just come across it on some spurious internet site, and it got lodged in my brain.)

[Sassun]

Not at all. -ian is in fact common in Iranian last names, and is possibly an Iranian loan. It does not necceraly suggest an Armenian connection. On the other hand, converts are extremely rare, although I met a few.

That is interesting , if it is an Iranian loan then even as early as Vartan Mamigonian , the Persian influence had made it to Armenia ... Hmm ... though it is also interesting as to why it did not gain as much prevalence in Persia , if it is indeed an Iranian thing ?

 

One more thing , how prevalent is it in Iran ? I always thought that it is not too prevalent. I mean you can see some -ian ending last names , but i think the ratio is quite low ... Speaking of , have you seen the art work of Mahmoud Farshchian ? It's pretty amazing.

 

I think it 's an Armenian pastime to look for -ian in a list of last names lol. i remember seeing -ian ending last names in the Iranian football team lineup and going HAH!! Armenians !!!! Then I read the 1st name and to my surprise it was not Armenian name.

Edited June 2, 2007 by Sassun

[Sassun]

I don't know, it may be that the information I read was incorrect (I wasn't saying that this was the case, only that I had read somewhere that it was the case, that at some point after taking over their land, the Turks re-named all the Armenians. I think it may have been in "The Burning Tigris"? ....now I'll have to go re-read and see if I can find it. I may have just come across it on some spurious internet site, and it got lodged in my brain.)

No no , I do not think it is in The Burning Tigris . I have read the book and do not recall such a thing, and I just looked through the index and the book itself (though it was just a quick skimming ) and could not find anything of the sort .

 

Plus , what Arpa said is logical . It is definitely something predating the Turks . The Persian explanation might be the closest one, i guess.. or maybe it's the other way around , we influenced some Persian last names? i think that could be a more plausible explanation given that it is not prevalent in Iran but almost all Armenians have last names ending with -ian.

Edited June 2, 2007 by Sassun

[Arpa]

read somewhere recently (I can't remember where), that some Armenians dislike the "ian" names, as they are Turkish in origin (ie, supposedly Turks having renamed Armenians based on who their father was or where they lived). I haven't read this entire thread, but that doesn't seem to be the case here - has anyone else heard this?

This post has been edited by Saramelkonian: Yesterday, 04:28 AM

We still don’t know who had said the above, where why and in what context. Even though I may have known exactly what the intended message was I kept my above response short as this subject has been debated to the ground at numerous times under a variety of topics.

My take of what was said is; Even though we have had -ian surnames since time immemorial the Turkish element was probably meant to say, after we were virtually turkified we began identifying each other as Topal Youhanna or Demirji Sargis. Since this was not clear enough to identify us as Armenians we added the -ian to make topal- topal-ian and demirji-demirj-ian. Whereas at one time we aould have surnames like Vanetsi or Vanetsian it was in time turkified by replacing the -tsi with L as in VanL-ian etc.

Note. Let us stop passing the buck and blaming every calamity on THEM, whoever THEM may be. That those ugly and insultful Turkish surnames were not imposed on us by the Turks ,but the Turkish speaking Armenians when they identified their neighbors as the “topal-lar or topal-gil”, “the lame ones” etc.

 

Plus , what Arpa said is logical . It is definitely something predating the Turks . The Persian explanation might be the closest one, i guess.. or maybe it's the other way around , we influenced some Persian last names? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) i think that could be a more plausible explanation given that it is not prevalent in Iran but almost all Armenians have last names ending with -ian. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by Sassun: Today, 04:20 AM

Once again. Yes we do know that some Persians and other Asians do have -ian surnames, however, as Sassun points out, we know that “Mohammed Hassanian” is not Armenian.

As to the style having come to us from Persia. Why must we always assume that it has come to us rather than gone from us? Can someone show us if the Persians had the -ian concept during Mamikonians’ time or before? And, it has been shown that, contrary to the prevailing myth the Mamikonians did not come from the east but from the north , I.e Jenk, the land of Jenats. (see Johannes’ take on the land of Jenk). In my opinion the -ian concept is a Europian one, look what the Latins call the people of Italy-Italia , Hungarian, Romanian, Ionian etc. Otherwise, when and where idi the Latins and other Europeans have had learned the concept of -ian. It is customary to assume that the Europeans learned about the orient through the Arabs. How many Arabs have -ian surnames?

Most Arabic and Persian surnames based on geography end in -I as in Halabi or Teherani. Now, are Armenian surnames like Bagratuni, Amatuni etc influenced by this concept? Probably not, since the -uni, (as in Erebuni or Artsruni) concept goes way before we knew the Arabs.

Edited June 2, 2007 by Arpa

[Sassun]

Thanks for the info Arpa!!!

 

You said

"Why must we always assume that it has come to us rather than gone from us?"

 

You are right ! That is what I realized after I re-read my mssg , so I edited it and added "or maybe it's the other way around , we influenced some Persian last names? "

 

Also , the -ian ending is sometimes seen in Indian surnames too.

 

Still , we have an almost total monopoly on the -ian ending !!!

 

 

[Arpa]

Thanks for the info Arpa!!!

=====

Still , we have an almost total monopoly on the -ian ending !!!

The following, among many, is from this thread.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=75...;hl=khorkhoruni

Of course, the commander was none other than Vardan Mamikon-IAN himself.And the rest were (a partial list); Nershapuh Artsruni, Khoren Khorkhoruni, Artak Paluni, Vahan Aamatuni, the Vahevuni-s, Tatul Timaksian, Arshavir Arsharuni, Shemavon Atzevatsi, Tajat Gntuni, Atom Gnuni, Khosrov Gapeghian, Garen Saharuni, Hmayak and Kazrik Timaksian, Nerseh Kachberuni, Barsam Mandakuni,Arsen Untzayetsi, Ayrouk Sughuni, Vren Dashratsi, Barsam Artsruni, Khours Srvantstiants, The Akean-s, the Turpatuni-s and the Rushduni-s.

We also know that the opposition was led by Vasak Syuni.

Above we see that at that time many forms of toponyms and patrynims were in use, i.e Armenians did have surnames. We can go even further back and see that..

Yes, even though, at the present 99.9% of Armenians may have surnames endin in -ian or -yan, and we get highly frustrated when someone asks us what ethnicity we (our name) is, we are tempted to answer; “Duuuh! Don’t you know that a surname ending in -ian is always Armenian!”

Maybe so at the present, but did Khorenatsi have and an -ian surname? Did Shirakatsi,?Did Paustos Buzand , or even Catholicos Sahak Partew? Even today,. How about Atruni/Adrouni, Atonts, Bakunts, Suny etc. and many, many more?

Look above at the names of the Vardananq. How many _ians do you see? Yes, there are a few, showing that we did have that concept, but they are not in the majority.

My opinion is that, yes, even though we did have the concept of -ian, we will , as we go back to our pre-tenth century history and literature we will see far fewer names ending in -ian. So what? You may say? I say. Even if we had the concept of -ian previous to our closer friction with west, I.e during Frankish and Crusader times during the Kilikian times the -ian was not as universal as it is today.

What does that mean?

The -IAN concept is European rather than Oriental. And maybe we spread it to Persia, India and beyond. Even such terms as “sassanian or sassanid” are not native Persian terms, but European. Do the Persians call themselves “Parsian/Farsian”? No, they called themselves “PARSI/FARSI”. Do Armenians call themselves “HAY-IAN, or HAYASTANTSI- IAN”? No. the term “ARMENIAN” is of European influence. Note that our neighbors call us “Armani/Ermeni”.

Edited June 2, 2007 by Arpa

[Saramelkonian]

Yes, even though, at the present 99.9% of Armenians may have surnames endin in -ian or -yan, and we get highly frustrated when someone asks us what ethnicity we (our name) is, we are tempted to answer; “Duuuh! Don’t you know that a surname ending in -ian is always Armenian!”

 

we had a new veterinarian move into our neighbourhood, he had an open house. His surname is Avedisian, so I said, "Are you are Armenian?". and he gave me a really cold look and said, "No Azerbajani". So, the "ian" surname doesn't always mean Armenian! (yeah, I know we all know that, I'm just giving an example where it's easy to get it wrong. I still wonder if his ancestors are Armenian and he somehow doesn't know)

 

[Arpa]

OK!

This may be off topic.

Why do we at times refer to Vardan Mamikinean as “Karmir Vardan/Կարմիր Վարդան”.

It may not necessarily BE because he wore a red cape.

Or, is it because we know that ‘vard” in Persian and “ward” in Arabic means “rose/pink/red”, or “ՎԱՐԴ”, more correctly “ ՒԱՐԴ/ward” in Armenian also means “red”?

Consider such terms as “Vordan Karmir/Որդան կարմիր” as in, although not necessarily and exactly the same hue- “Cochineal Red”.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15...mp;hl=cochineal

 

[Arpa]

we had a new veterinarian move into our neighbourhood, he had an open house. His surname is Avedisian, so I said, "Are you are Armenian?". and he gave me a really cold look and said, "No Azerbajani". So, the "ian" surname doesn't always mean Armenian! (yeah, I know we all know that, I'm just giving an example where it's easy to get it wrong. I still wonder if his ancestors are Armenian and he somehow doesn't know)

No, not necessarily. A name like like "Avedisian" (dzezi, mezi mets Avedis, even if in the Arabic "hawades" )we may dispute the origin of the word) also means "good news") can never be a Turk-Azeri surname.

Perhaps this so called Azeri is ashamed of his Armenian heritage and wants to side with the victorious Turk and Azeri rather than the whining loser Armenian.

If this vet is actually a real Azeri Turk, why is his name not Aliyev or Mammediarov?

Look here;

Luke 2

[10] And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

10Եւ հրեշտակը ասաց նրանց. «Մի՛ վախեցէք, որովհետեւ ահա ձեզ մեծ ուրախութիւն եմ աւետում, որը ամբողջ ժողովրդինը կը լինի.

Edited June 2, 2007 by Arpa

[Sassun]

we had a new veterinarian move into our neighbourhood, he had an open house. His surname is Avedisian, so I said, "Are you are Armenian?". and he gave me a really cold look and said, "No Azerbajani". So, the "ian" surname doesn't always mean Armenian! (yeah, I know we all know that, I'm just giving an example where it's easy to get it wrong. I still wonder if his ancestors are Armenian and he somehow doesn't know)

What ?????

Are you sure he was not joking ???

How can Avedisian be Azeri ?????

It's illogical.

Maybe he was just being sarcastic at your question .

[Johannes]

we had a new veterinarian move into our neighbourhood, he had an open house. His surname is Avedisian, so I said, "Are you are Armenian?". and he gave me a really cold look and said, "No Azerbajani". So, the "ian" surname doesn't always mean Armenian! (yeah, I know we all know that, I'm just giving an example where it's easy to get it wrong. I still wonder if his ancestors are Armenian and he somehow doesn't know)

Հայաստանի մէջ եւ շուրջ, իսլամի յաղթական արշաւանքէն ետք, միշտ քրիստոնեաներն են, որ իսլամացեր են, եւ ոչ հակառակը: Աւետիս հայկական անուն է, իսկ Աւետիսեան՝ շատ աւելի հայկական է, ուստի ամէնայն հաւանականութեամբ մի քանի սերունդ առաջ, իսլամ կրօնը ընդունած հայի ծորան ծոռն է վերոյիշեալ ազրբեջանցի Աւետիսեանը:

Մենք կարդացած ենք հայ գրականութեան մէջ եւ լաւ գիտենք որ իսլամի տարածումը քաջալերելու համար, պարսիկ խաներ, շահեր հաստատած էին անգութ օրէնք, որու շնորհիւ իսլամացող հայը կը ժառանգեր ընտանիքի ողջ հարստութիւնը: Այսպիսով շատ ցածոգի հայեր, որոնք անհամաձայն եղած են իրենց եղբայրներուն, կամ ագահութեան աչքածակութեան որպէս հետեւանք՝ իսլամացեր են: Դարձեալ նոյն աղբիւրներու համաձայն, չեմ յիշեր որ կաթողիկոսը գացած է Շահի դուռ, օրէնքի փոփոխման համար: Ինչպէս նաաեւ շատեր կեանքի ապահովութեան համար իսլամացեր են եւ այժմ ազրբիջանցի կը կոչուին:

Խօսքս անոր, որ ինքզինք իբր հայ պահել կուզէ:

[Sassun]

OK!

This may be off topic.

Why do we at times refer to Vardan Mamikinean as “Karmir Vardan/Կարմիր Վարդան”.

It may not necessarily BE because he wore a red cape.

Or, is it because we know that ‘vard” in Persian and “ward” in Arabic means “rose/pink/red”, or “ՎԱՐԴ”, more correctly “ ՒԱՐԴ/ward” in Armenian also means “red”?

Consider such terms as “Vordan Karmir/Որդան կարմիր” as in, although not necessarily and exactly the same hue- “Cochineal Red”.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15...mp;hl=cochineal

Arpa , very interesting analysis

But a small note here , 'warda' وردة in Arabic means rose , and has nothing to do with color, but "wardi " ورديٌّ means rosy / rose-colored . The word for red is ahmar أحمر or hamra' حمراء (for feminine) and for pink is zahri زهريّ (from the word "zahra" زهرة which means flower)

[Arpa]

Arpa , very interesting analysis

But a small note here , 'warda' وردة in Arabic means rose , and has nothing to do with color, but "wardi " ورديٌّ means rosy / rose-colored . The word for red is ahmar أحمر or hamra' حمراء (for feminine) and for pink is zahri زهريّ (from the word "zahra" زهرة which means flower)

Yes we know that.

May be not so much in modern Farsi but in Pahlavi “ward/vard” meant red. In modern Farsi red is “kirmiz”. Does that have any thing to do with the Armenian “karmir”?

Also remember this ditty; Roses are red, Violets are blue… “etc. Or the song “Rose are red my love, violets are blue…”

http://ntl.matrix.com.br/pfilho/html/lyric...red_my_love.txt

Why is the most popular floral arrangement a dozen or two of long stemmed RED roses?

Or why is the French word for red is rouge and the Latin word is Russo?

I guess it all depends what color roses were where one lives. In Armenia they may have been pink "վարդագոյն", but if it were left to Texans it would have been yellow; http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/yellowrose.htm

 

How about this;.

Words by Goethe, Translated by H. Toumanian. Music by R. Mel.ikian

Փոքրիկ տղան մի վարդ տեսավ,

Տեսավ մի վարդ դաշտի միջին:

Վարդը տեսավ ուրախացավ,

Մօտիկ վազեց սիրուն վարդին:

Սիրուն վարդին, ԿԱՐՄԻՐ վարդին,

ԿԱՐՄԻՐ վարդը դաշտի միջին

 

Edited June 2, 2007 by Arpa

[Sassun]

Yes we know that.

May be not so much in modern Farsi but in Pahlavi “ward/vard” meant red. In modern Farsi red is “kirmiz”. Does that have any thing to do with the Armenian “karmir”?

Also remember this ditty; Roses are red, Violets are blue… “etc. Or the song “Rose are red my love, violets are blue…”

http://ntl.matrix.com.br/pfilho/html/lyric...red_my_love.txt

Why is the most popular floral arrangement a dozen or two of long stemmed RED roses?

Or why is the French word for red is rouge and the Latin word is Russo?

I guess it all depends what color roses were where one lives. In Armenia they may have been pink "վարդագոյն", but if it were left to Texans it would have been yellow; http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/yellowrose.htm

 

ok , i get it. i was just saying...

[Arpa]

 

ok , i get it. i was just saying...

This is even sillier.

Does "ahmar"mean "more assinine/donkeyish" than "hamir/himar", as in "hasan/ahsan"?

Edited June 2, 2007 by Arpa

[Sassun]

This is even sillier.

Does "ahmar"mean "more assinine/donkeyish" than "hamir/himar", as in "hasan/ahsan"?

hahaha ...

Good observation Arpa .

Edited June 2, 2007 by Sassun

[Zartonk]

Once again. Yes we do know that some Persians and other Asians do have -ian surnames, however, as Sassun points out, we know that “Mohammed Hassanian” is not Armenian.

As to the style having come to us from Persia. Why must we always assume that it has come to us rather than gone from us? Can someone show us if the Persians had the -ian concept during Mamikonians’ time or before? And, it has been shown that, contrary to the prevailing myth the Mamikonians did not come from the east but from the north , I.e Jenk, the land of Jenats. (see Johannes’ take on the land of Jenk). In my opinion the -ian concept is a Europian one, look what the Latins call the people of Italy-Italia , Hungarian, Romanian, Ionian etc. Otherwise, when and where idi the Latins and other Europeans have had learned the concept of -ian. It is customary to assume that the Europeans learned about the orient through the Arabs. How many Arabs have -ian surnames?

Most Arabic and Persian surnames based on geography end in -I as in Halabi or Teherani. Now, are Armenian surnames like Bagratuni, Amatuni etc influenced by this concept? Probably not, since the -uni, (as in Erebuni or Artsruni) concept goes way before we knew the Arabs.

 

Indeed. I meant to state the commonly accepted notion of the origin of -ian.

 

Since Christianity, Armenians have continually been discredited of their cultural attributions and identity. Much of what was Armenian was undermined and suppressed in the name of new righteousness. For seventeen hundred years we're repeatedly told that all our characteristics were foreign gifts, including the Son of God. And if that doesn't kill...

[Ariane]

My take of what was said is; Even though we have had -ian surnames since time immemorial the Turkish element was probably meant to say, after we were virtually turkified we began identifying each other as Topal Youhanna or Demirji Sargis. Since this was not clear enough to identify us as Armenians we added the -ian to make topal- topal-ian and demirji-demirj-ian. Whereas at one time we aould have surnames like Vanetsi or Vanetsian it was in time turkified by replacing the -tsi with L as in VanL-ian etc.

Note. Let us stop passing the buck and blaming every calamity on THEM, whoever THEM may be. That those ugly and insultful Turkish surnames were not imposed on us by the Turks ,but the Turkish speaking Armenians when they identified their neighbors as the “topal-lar or topal-gil”, “the lame ones” etc.

 

Yeah, right and thanks Arpa, that is why my granfather, Boghos Zurnadjian, in Kharpert, changed his name in Boghos Agopian, when he arrived in France. He explained us that he didn't like this name, I understand why, now !

Edited June 3, 2007 by Ariane

[Saramelkonian]

What ?????

Are you sure he was not joking ???

How can Avedisian be Azeri ?????

It's illogical.

Maybe he was just being sarcastic at your question .

 

I suppose it's possible... but that is unlike any other Armenian I've ever met... usually Armenians seem so delighted to meet other Armenians. My mother once even had a complete stranger phone her up, just because he was so happy to see an Armenian surname in the phone book! And even once, a Greek fellow recognised my surname and said, "You are Armenian! The Greeks and the Armenians have always been great friends, we have both suffered at the hands of the Turks" (and it's true, my grandmother actually went into hiding with a Greek family, which is how she escaped the genocide)

 

Sorry, I've gone way off topic. I guess there are all different kinds of people in the world, but I would never expect another Armenian to react coldly if asked if he was Armenian. But maybe this guy was an oddball. Or maybe he just thought it was unforgiveable that I didn't say, "You are Armenian! so am I!" rather than asking (still think that would be weird though)

Edited June 3, 2007 by Saramelkonian

[vahan79]

I don't have a IAN name either. And quite honestly I really don't mind. I like the flexibility of being able to "hide" my Armenianess when I want to. Among Armenians I usually add the -an to avoid confusion, even though this is more often than not unnecessary.

 

(1) Why would you want to hide your Armenianness

 

(2) With a name like "Nairi" you aren't hiding anything.

[vahan79]

My mother once even had a complete stranger phone her up, just because he was so happy to see an Armenian surname in the phone book!

 

 

You obviously don't live in LA.

[vahan79]

I suppose it's possible... but that is unlike any other Armenian I've ever met... usually Armenians seem so delighted to meet other Armenians. My mother once even had a complete stranger phone her up, just because he was so happy to see an Armenian surname in the phone book! And even once, a Greek fellow recognised my surname and said, "You are Armenian! The Greeks and the Armenians have always been great friends, we have both suffered at the hands of the Turks" (and it's true, my grandmother actually went into hiding with a Greek family, which is how she escaped the genocide)

 

Sorry, I've gone way off topic. I guess there are all different kinds of people in the world, but I would never expect another Armenian to react coldly if asked if he was Armenian. But maybe this guy was an oddball. Or maybe he just thought it was unforgiveable that I didn't say, "You are Armenian! so am I!" rather than asking (still think that would be weird though)

 

Speaking of phone books, what's with the scary lawyer guy that's been on the back of every issue of the Armenian phonebook since I was a child. I just can't get used to him....what's his name Vikan something or other?

[Saramelkonian]

You obviously don't live in LA

 

No, I live in the UK. Going off topic again, my dad used to live in LA though. When he was at college, he started off at Columbia, then decided he hated the cold of New York, and so transferred to USC. I once had a boss who had lived in LA. I said, "My Dad used to live in LA!" and he said, "Oh, did he sell rugs?"

Edited June 3, 2007 by Saramelkonian

[vahan79]

No, I live in the UK. Going off topic again, my dad used to live in LA though. When he was at college, he started off at Columbia, then decided he hated the cold of New York, and so transferred to USC. I once had a boss who had lived in LA. I said, "My Dad used to live in LA!" and he said, "Oh, did he sell rugs?"

 

Well, did he?