European girls!

[Arturian]

Nellie in judging i meant seeing and evaluating.

 

About my family i have you just example. About how it can be wrong. I don't think so. Why? because we never have any problems, arguments fights etc. etc. Thus it makes very much successful family.

 

About God helping me. I do beg that from God. And God opens my eyes, i follow christian rules and laws (at least trying).

 

Jeggernaut, who are you arguing with? In the western countries the first second you say that men and women are different and thus should have different roles in life, the bunch of abssessed with life women will jump on you and call you sexist.

[Arturian]

Hasmiek, I am more blessed with my life. God gave me chance to study in England, I have seen many countries across the globe, i have loyal friends around the globe starting from Georgia and Azerbaijan (yes, Azerbaijan) ending with Yemen, the U.S., Uzbekistan, Bangladesh, Thailand, Greece etc. etc. I have amazing sisters for whom i have never been ashamed of but proud as never in my life. I have amazing father and mother, whom i love the most in this world for sacrificing their lives for their kids. I have three cars, one flat and one house that i am currently building for my future family to live in. The last are material goods and don't really mean anything. What I ask God is to help me in growing my faith as nothing more important for me as the faith and commitment to God. I also ask Him to protect my family, and from His will they are doing fine far away from me. I ask God these things. And in this month of fasting I also ask God to protect Armenia in order not to lose our faith.

 

And again I ask not to use the words such dumb and so on. I understand that with my posts you get offended and feel in the same place as Kazza, but try to keep it cool.

 

God bless You!

[THOTH]

FYI - I suggest that folks check the March 2002 issue of AIM magazine. Its theme "Violence in the home" - concerning the issue of domestiv violence in Armenia. In my view it is understandable that a nation where the economy is struggling and there are other stresses and that live in the traditional way (ie men as undisputed head of family, women have little recourse, etc) that you will see this problem - and of course we do. I am glad for Artur that his family is properous enough where the women do not need to work (and if they do not choose to that is OK as well). I am rather dubious that there is no argueing (yeah right) anyway - i do not think that this (perhaps to some) ideal that Artur portrays is in fact the norm (sure if you are [comparatively] rich perhaps...Anyway some interesting quotes:

 

In the AIM view section entitled "Beating Your Wife":

 

"Domestic violence in the Armenian context is complicated by the sense of shame felt by the woman at the idea of breakling up the family to save herself. That the victim should feel guilt in seeking to escape persecution is bad enough. That she should be made to feel shame as a result of family pressure not to bring embarrassment upon their home suggests a very warped sense of priorities"

 

and:

 

"...there is indifference to the whole issue of domestiv violence in Armenia....In such a macho culture, the man is king in his own home and his wife merely one of his possessions, like the furnature."

 

There are then two articles in the magazine that detail the experiences of several women...including some very sad and ridiculous behavior/attitudes on the part of the men - IMO.

[Arturian]

Thoth you shouldn't pay attention to that article, it is crap. Those cases are very few and do not reflect the true Armenian way of buiulding a family. A Man who raises his hand over his wife, can never be a man anymore. Fullstop.

 

There cases of disgraceful Armenians who do that, it is disrespectful towards your wife and children.

 

About wives working it's just the case of finances. If a man can't afford, then there is obviously need for woman to work. If he can, i don't simply see a reason for woman to work.

[Arturian]

I am just wondering who wrote this article.

[THOTH]

Artur - the quotes are from an editorial in Armenian International magazine. They are followed by a number of accounts and reports concerning how police and the society handle these cases of violence against women. You like most in Armenia (according to these reports) want to basically ignore the problem - but it is just your type of attitudes that perpetuate the problem.

 

So here is a test for you:

 

A women is repeatadly beaten by her husband in front of their children (etc) (BTW - he beats her because she is an educated physicist and has been offered a prestigeous and high paying job - locally - as opposed to his meager, low paying job that barely feeds the family? He is afraid that she will have an affair if she leaves the house without him and doesn't thinkl women should work anyway - just on priciple...and certainly not drive.

 

1)She should seek outside help? Yes/no

 

2)She should report the beatings to the police? Yes/no

 

3)She should leave/divorce him if these beatings do not stop? Yes/no

 

4)The husband should be prosecuted and perhaps jailed? Yes/no

 

5) She should never mention a thing to anyone and should just accept that she is her husbands property and this is just the way it is? yes/no

 

6) She should accept the position and move out taking the kids with her (her mother has agreed to watch the children during the day)? Yes/no

 

etc

[hasmiek]

oh nellie,

artur will never understand that in fact he is judging everybody else in the worst way possible. He judges without even reading your posts very well (it doesn't seem like he does anyway) and with refusing to spent some thought on what you are saying. very dumb that is.

 

and artur;

i feel so lucky; i don't have to beg God for anything, and i feel pretty blessed with my life.

The fact that you have to beg God for something says something about you.....good people don't have to....maybe you are not such a good boy anyway! What is it you do then?

[nellie]

The man can be King in his own house, as long as the woman is the Queen.

[Anshnork]

IT'S ABOUT TIME!!! Even though I am not aware of the current situation in Armenia, I can see the way Armenian families function in America, and frankly, it's disgusting. The "men" (especially the older ones who immigranted here, but young Armenian-Americans as well) treat the ladies INCREDIBLY horribly. If the women do not do what they demand, they will raise their voice and start yelling and insulting and intimidating until the woman crumbles and succumbs to his demands. The men have NO respect for their ladies. You can see it in the extremely ROUGH way they talk to and handle them. I CANNOT stand to be around such people. It brings me to tears. You cannot blame the men completely, however. They were raised in an environment where this is "ok." But it is an issue that needs to be dealt with so that it can be CHANGED. Arthur, you CANNOT just brush off the article because you don't like what it says. Even YOU must believe that as fellow human beings women should be treated with kindness and respect. I'm sure you would want that for your sisters. Unfortunately, most Armenian and Armenian-American men fail to see this.

[Guest Fadi]

I guess this problem is linked with the fact that the Armenians share Middle Eastern culture.

[Sip]

Hagarag: after reading your post, this is what I understood:

 

Barska/Libanana Hyes = Bad because a few that you used to hang out with were doing something in Beverly hills and you got some "feedback" from some Women.

 

Is that what you are saying or did I misunderstand something?

 

-----------------

Arthur, Arthur, Arthur: what will happen if your wife decides she wants to drive some day? Will you not raise your masculine voice? Will you not raise your hand?

 

I know almost exactly what you are going to say ... I am fairly sure you are going to say something along the lines of "well, a real Armenian woman would respect her husband and wouldn't even think of disagreeing with him. That way, I would never have to raise my voice and I would continue to respect her" ... yah, the same way I respect my toilet plunger.

 

Why don't you just make it simple? Why not just say that you feel superior to women and they should live the way you think they should live? Why is everyone trying to sugar-coat their beliefs and ideas? Just say it like it is!

 

In almost every post you have ever made you say:

 

1) You respect all Armenian women

2) You would never ever imagine verbally abusing or hitting an Armenian woman

3) Your woman would never disagree with you

4) If a woman disagrees with you (e.g. Kazzaa) she is not Armenian

5) If a woman is not Armenian, she can be disrespected, beaten, insluted, treated in the worst possible way.

 

Am I wrong? Well, that's what has been going on. Once again, I say it as I see it.

 

[ March 13, 2002, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[THOTH]

OK Artur - you can fill in the scenario background...let us all agree that she is being beaten by her husband regularly and in front of the children....please now answer questions 1 - 6 from my previous post.

[khodja]

Sip,

 

It only takes a small percentage to make a bad impression. My dates would think that I am like these Armenian men that they had met at the discos.

[Arturian]

Thoth, it is incorrect and insane to say that husbands beat their wife because she has a good job. Man, it rediculous and mispercepted. Usually these cases happen when man drinks and then under condition of alcohol does something which is is not suitable for a man.

 

These problems do exist in some disgraceful armenian families, but surely the percentage of such cases are way higher in your society than our.

 

Anshnork, what do you know about respect to women. You call our families disgusting. Don't make me to give you example about families in western societies where women are not respected at all but rather used as a material for personal sexual satisfaction etc.

 

So, there is no need for accusing our men in desrespect to our women...

 

It is not OK, to shout at your wife, it is not OK to raise a hand over your wife. Woman is like a mirror of the whole family. You break it, then the whole family will break. I can assure you that women in our families are respect as none in your society. And there is no need to tell me about respect towards our women, I respect them more than anyone else in this world. I will be the lowest piece of living creature in this word if I raise my voice over my wife!!!

[khodja]

I was taught to respect my girlfiends and respect any woman one met at a disco, party ,etc. I grew up with America-Hyes who were generally respectful of women. When I moved to Los Angeles I fell in with a group of Barska-Hyes and Libana-Hyes. When we would drive into Beverly Hills to go to a disco, these guys would hang out of the windows and harange the women, calling them all poses behind their back. Their behavior was apalling. After the feedback I got from women about these men, I would tell my dates that I was of French background. These Middle Eastern Armenian men ruined it for the America-Hyes with the women.

[Sip]

I know that's unfortunately how many people think in the world. However, I just wanted to point out that generalizing from a small sample almost never works. If I do that when writing a technical paper submitted to a big conference, I would instantly get rejected and people would laugh at me! I have learned it the hard way that in order to make any kind of meaningful conclusion about anything (computers, bacteria, stars and planets, people, ANYTHING), one has to study them very deeply and for a long period of time (i.e. many many "experiments").

 

But I agree, unfortunately its almost in our nature to jump to conclusions, to make judgements, and to assume many things which may or may not be true ... and since we almost never have complete information, we always tend to generalize (I do it too)

[Arturian]

Sip, my wife would never (from God's will) decide to drive because there wouldn't be a need for her to drive. Family is a business. She takes care of the kids I would make sure that they get everything, thus taking care of the whole family. If she comes up with such idea of driving a car, first thing i would ask is "what for?" ... Second thing is she will respect my word as being a husband and will not argue with such. Does that sound complecated for you ??? I don't see a problem here... you can call it disrespect, but from my position, i do it because i care of her. It is sad to see that your brain does not understand this and only thinks about men being higher than women. Get it once for all, there are duties and thing in this world to do for women and there things to do for men, and there are special places which both belong, so there is no need to make it complecated...!

 

Dude, I have little sister, if one person, no matter who her husband or any other man on this world would raise a voice on her and bring a tear in her eye, that person will regart of doing that for the rest of his life!

 

If you say that it is all about man being superior to woman, it is bulshit, because I have a sister and i want her to be living in such family as mine will be... So... would i want her to be treates like non-human.... think before you talk!!!

 

Thoth i don't understand the perposue of your questioning... But i do understand that you perhaps has the same expression about me as Sip has... Anyways, this is the case i will be answering

 

Man comes home drunk and starts beating his wife and her kids let say under condition of alcohol..

 

1-yes, e.g. her brothers or father for example

2-yes

3-yes

4-yes

5-no

6-i didn't really understand that part. You are saying her moving out of family and taking kids? If so, then yes.

 

Regards

[THOTH]

Artur - well at least you pass a most basic test concerning violence against women and their options. Not all of your "traditional" bretheren seem to see it this way (according to the articals). So perhaps you are assinmilating Western values just a little - eh? LOL

 

I find your continued presentation of your views concerning women driving to be somewhat antiquated (and again very "old world" male centric...certainly not in line with realities in the industrialized world. Your continued position causes me to wonder some things concerning your choice of a wife (and again your fundemental beliefs).

 

General questions concerning women/work & education etc:

 

Do you believe that women/young girls should be educated? Do you believe in upper limits on education for women? Does the idea of a women doctor or PHD frighten you in any way? Should women be encoraged or discouraged from pursueing such higher education and subsequat careers?

 

Specific questions regarding your "ideal" (or acceptable) wife:

 

Do you (or will you) seek strictly a wife who is uneducated (or non-college level educated)? If your wife is degreed (or otherwise) and expresses a desire to work what will be your response? What if your wife disagrees with your decision for her not to drive? (will you make her sign a paper or such indicating that she will never attempt to drive after marrying you?). To what degree will you accept your wife as a partner in the making of family decisions? If you somehow become disabled or otherwise unable to care for your family - then what? Can your wife work/drive? What if your wife determined that she was not happy with your arrangement of her not driving or being allowed to work and decided that if you did not allow her to do either that she was leaving you - what would be your response?

 

Artur - in general I find your concepts of respect/disrespect between man & women to be less then ideal. Your positions bring to mind what I would expect from a slave master concerning his slaves. And I find it curious that you view marriage/family as a business - versus as a loving/caring relationship...and you charge me with only "using" my wife sexually...so your position is its OK to "use" a woman as an heir producer and to do the household chores and tend to your and your childrens needs...and by golly she better not expect to actually enjoy sex...it is just another service (show of respect etc) to you...it seems you are the one advocating the "use" standard of marraige all around.

 

And while I understand that in all families thereis a certain division of labor - and that traditionally husbands were by and large "breadwinners" and women the mastewr of the houshold - can you not understand that this represents more of an agrarian model that may not be appropriate in many (most) cases in an industrialized society. If women are becoming educated and skilled - and if alternative (daytime etc) child care arrangements are available (and this can include relatives or husband & wife shifting off the duties as some of my neighbors do) then why shouldn't a woman work? And, in any event if women desire to work/have careers etc (and possible even not become wives/mothers at all), or to do al of the above - how can this be wrong? And who are you to say it is wrong for others?

[Sip]

... and ... some more for you dear Arhtur:

 

Try to answer the same questions that Thoth asked about the education level of your wife about your sister. Would you want your sister to be able to pursue a high-level college degree? What if she really wants to and her husband says no. Should she give up her dreams and ambitions and listen to "the man"?

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sip:

... and ... some more for you dear Arhtur:

 

Try to answer the same questions that Thoth asked about the education level of your wife about your sister. Would you want your sister to be able to pursue a high-level college degree? What if she really wants to and her husband says no. Should she give up her dreams and ambitions and listen to "the man"?

---

Or (Artur's hypothetical/future/eventual?) daughter(s) of course.

 

But I think he will answer "no" it is not their place or some such...

[Sip]

It does not sound complicated at all! It sounds actually very very simple. She asks for something she wants and you say no (out of utter respect for her). I understand. I understand perfectly.

[Sip]

Actually, now that I think about it, I do that sometimes too. My cat wanted to go out and play the other day. I had seen this big dog in the neighborhood running around. So I didn't let her go out. I can really see parallels between the way I feel and care about that cat and the way you talk about your wife.

 

No disrespect intended. You have the right to do and feel as you please but I don't really respect my cat. I own it and play with it when I feel like it. If you want to call that respect and care, that's fine. But I think we are using 2 different dictionaries.

[THOTH]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sip:

Actually, now that I think about it, I do that sometimes too. My cat wanted to go out and play the other day. I had seen this big dog in the neighborhood running around. So I didn't let her go out. I can really see parallels between the way I feel and care about that cat and the way you talk about your wife.

 

No disrespect intended. You have the right to do and feel as you please but I don't really respect my cat. I own it and play with it when I feel like it. If you want to call that respect and care, that's fine. But I think we are using 2 different dictionaries.

---

Yes! Very good...

 

Does a Master respect and love his slave(s)? I'm sure some may have/or do....others certainly claim(ed) too - and may have been somewhat more lenient or understanding...but the gist of the relationship is boss and servant.

 

Artur presupposes that one adult has the right to determine what another adult can and cannot do. H interprets the contract of marraige as one where the husband has the final say in all things. Well i guess that is OK for him and any who might agree with him and submit to such. But to expect that those of us in the rest of the world should abide by such...well then he is advocating slavery for at least 1/2 the population of the world (IMO).

 

Artur - if women of the world chose not to follow your rules, well then...go ahead & cry & whine all you want - but it will not change anything. And to put those of us down - because we respect the rights and self-determination of people - and you obviously do not - well - shame on you - thats what i have to say...

[Sip]

I am sorry that I am below your intelligence level. Maybe one day ... but the way the world seems to me right now, I will always be a "kid" trying to make sense of this complex thing we call life. (pretty ironic considering what I am saying in my signature isn't it?)

 

[ March 15, 2002, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Arturian]

I am oficially quiting this forum. There are no people left in this forum for me to argue with. Hate towards me, bad words etc. are just the sign of envy and impossibility of arguing!!!

 

Everyone dislikes me here, so I decide to quit once for all. Thoth, if you douts you can mail me, and we can continue our discussion of the subject, and I will prove you my point.

 

At this time i am sitting with a british newspaper. Reading the news from your country: Woman, killed her 4 under 5 year old kids in the bathroom by drouning them, got a life imprisonment. That's how sick your society is. And you know that, but you enviness and the sorrow of living there with makes YOU at the age of 40 something to come to this forum and spend hours defending it.

 

Enough of this! I am outta here once for all. I will concentrate with my dissertation and upcoming exams. Here is my e-mail: artur_arm@hotmail.com .

 

For all other members, wish you all the happiness and peace to all your houses. No matter if you agreed with me or disagreed i wish you all the best.

 

Artur