Berj Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Aghmug:Man Berj, I was just about convinced God exists...Michael, my friend,After rejecting me for three times, you will become a believer when they crucify me "now, before I change my mind". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted June 9, 2001 Report Share Posted June 9, 2001 Hech babe, ''jermak gerta-ganatch gouka'' jambruki masin e khosgu... gerevi te ... kordzi vra en noren... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayemyes Posted July 5, 2001 Report Share Posted July 5, 2001 Hey guys!!!I was just visiting some old topics today and I happened to fall on this one and decided to post something. Don't you think if there really was a big evolution from which human beings became what they are today, shouldn't we still see evolution in the human beings that live today, I mean in our days. We don't see them. How can an evolution start and suddenly stop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anahid Takouhi Posted July 5, 2001 Report Share Posted July 5, 2001 Nothing can stop suddenly, unless you have no eyes to SEEEEEEEE......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted July 5, 2001 Report Share Posted July 5, 2001 you cannot see a evolution in one hundred years or even in one thousand years. but with the technology that we have today i don't think there would be any problem to turn monkey into human, if there really was an evolution form monkeys to humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayemyes Posted July 6, 2001 Report Share Posted July 6, 2001 Hmayk,First of all, I have eyes to see everything my friend. Second of all, if there has actually been an evolution in the last hundred or maybe even 500 years, can you bring me some proof or example. When we say evolution, we mostly think of physical changes that can be positive or negative. And I don't see any significan physical changes between, let's say a human from the 10th or even older century and now. The only significant change is their mentality according to me, and I don't consider that evolution. Look at a picture from the feudal period and tell me there is a change. And last of all, I'm not telling you to think about theology the way I do, so you don't have to be that rude with me. Everyone on this forum has the right to epress their opinions and I don't force anyone to think the way I do and I don't say that my point of view is the correct one among all of the other forum members' opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardemis9 Posted August 17, 2001 Report Share Posted August 17, 2001 So many times something shows wrong then all of the sudden the wrong is righted, God definitely does exist. [ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Ardemis9 ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted August 18, 2001 Report Share Posted August 18, 2001 "So many times something shows wrong then all of the sudden the wrong is righted, God definitely does exist." Artemis jan Welcome to HyeForum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted August 19, 2001 Report Share Posted August 19, 2001 Yeah, God Exists! Where is He actually when I badly need him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted August 25, 2001 Report Share Posted August 25, 2001 He's in you as you in Him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edward demian Posted August 29, 2001 Report Share Posted August 29, 2001 BaahThe first guy who lost his teeth figuered it out that it was better to crush the grains and wash it down with water or milk rather than trying to gum chew the hard grains.Eventually, his most significant other, started to anticipate his needs and prepared his meal by pre-crushing and soaking the grain flower. One day Mr. Tothless didnt come home and the stuff sort of rose. Probably they didnt wash their pots for the same reason that they didn't brush their teeth; No soap and no tooth paste in 12000 BC. Well some of the mold acted as yeast, but it looked scary or disgusting so he threw it in the fire. But it bounced in a corner where it baked, so you have the first bread loaf. Charcoal, sand and all.Do you guys think I can submit this for my Masters Dissertation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anahid Takouhi Posted September 6, 2001 Report Share Posted September 6, 2001 No. Dragon will not allow you to do so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted September 7, 2001 Report Share Posted September 7, 2001 She's my girl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted December 28, 2001 Report Share Posted December 28, 2001 First of all, hello all! I am new here and trying to catch up on all the very interesting discussions  quote:Originally posted by Half Breed:... I always go back to the classic watchmaker analogy. We look at a watch (or computer, etc.) and we logically conclude that there was an intelligence that composed it. So are we to then look at this universe that is infinitely more complex than any computer (think of all the designs, laws of physics, mathematics, gravity, alignment of the planets etc.) and conclude it came about by chance only? Well, I can't! With all due respect, I don't agree! The universe is NOT infinitely more complex than a computer. The universe may be much much larger than a computer but not infinitely more complex. Anyone who has studied fractals can recognize that seemingly extremely complex structures can be created with very simple rules. IMO, there are a set of simple, existing rules that govern what happens in the universe. All it takes to understand the universe is to understand all the rules that govern it. However, inside your computer, man is actively controlling and changing the state which makes it very different than the universe.  I understand that your argument is about the origin ... that there was an intelligence that set the universe in motion. But I for one don't think that GOD (whatever that is) is actively influencing the things that are going on RIGHT NOW. I also have no idea what set those rules in place (i.e. gravity, electro magnetism, light, etc). However, the Universe is NOT as magical as it seems and it definitely is not "infinitely" complex (although it may be infinitely large according to all our practical scales). ... but then again, what do I know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilafhead Posted December 31, 2001 Report Share Posted December 31, 2001 Welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted December 31, 2001 Report Share Posted December 31, 2001 Sip - welcome and nice post. After reviewing the preceeding discussions in detail I have a few things to say: 1)bread (like many inventions) was seemingly an accident For those who have not seen James Burk's TV series' - "Connections" and "The day the universe changed" - I highly recommend them)...and it seems reasonably accepted that beer came first. (based on the earliest writings...a recepie for beer) it seems that the ancients observed fermentation from wild grains that had been gathered and attempted to standardize it and make it more reliably available. Agriculture and the making of bread seem to have been (byproducts) spurred on by developments begun by the desire for a more steady supply of beer (much like the sucess of videos & the vcr [& possibly the internet...not sure on the later] due to P O R N O) 2) Evolution - is observable all around us. It is basically fact - as well as a thing can be known and accepted by man (IMO). Watch a National Geographic (or the like) special on the adaptation/transformation of Birds to certain specific environments (for instance). (The determination of species differation is somewhat arbitrary however - but observable environmentally determinstic changes have been sufficient to cause new species [split off from previous existing] to be named). Also - I have a buddy who does/did genetic work on fruit flies because their generational turnover (life/reproduction etc) is so short and mutations can be observed - specifically including those that take (and thus perpetuate) based on specific environmental advantages. BTW - I have developed a varient on the commonly accepted phrase used to describe the process of evolution: "survival of the fittest" - mine: "survival of the fattest" ...you figure it out... 3) Though I am (self) called THOTH - I do not feel qualified to answer your (this threads) ultimate question - "Does God exist?" (The answer to) this question is well beyond (even!) me (I mean I can't even spell properly...so really now)...and I believe human beings (in our current state of evolution!) lack both mental capacity to properly even frame the question(s) and could not comprehend the answer(s) even if one/they could be had (particularly given the possible characteristcs of such a being/beings/entitie(s)/construct and the process's involved (in Universe/Multiverse/reality creation).  I do believe that there is more than one question here (going back to the initial theme) - consiting of some shades of gray and not just black and white. And we might do better dividing them up to focus our (ultimatly [iMO] senseless, but perhaps enjoyable(?)) discussion/debate.  Here are some possible subdivisions (and I am sure there are many more):  Does/do (a) supreme entity(s) exist that somehow created the Universe as we know it? (sub question - is there really meaning in contemplating the sex {as we know it} to such (a) being(s)?) Do we know/can we really define this universe? Are there others? Did the entity(s) create them as well? Was this a conscious effort or a byproduct of something else (that I think almost by definition we cannot/are not {yet} capable to understand..in any event)?  Do/does this being/beings care (about the creation and to what degree? Does it have a purpose? Does it include us? Are we central to it? Is it beyond us? Are we (just) byproducts or stepping stones? Do/does it/they really manage things? At what level? Predestination - fact or fiction (etc)? Are moral issues among humans (etc) really a concern? Do we have them right? Or are they just a human/mortal thing? Do any religious books (seemingly penned by man and certainly not perfect) really describe this/these beings in any way (that is remotely close to reality)? Are any/all (&/or which ones) of the various holy books of man truly inspired/penned by God/the gods? How can we know? Could this/these being(s) be deceptive on purpose? Does any of this really matter (to us)? Why? How can we know? Does imploring the devine for favorable treatment have any real effect? What is/are the proper means (if any)? (ie. blood sacrifice/self flaggelation/prayer wheels/offerings/chanting etc etc) Is fear (of death/punishment etc) truly a noble and sufficient motivator?  Can only one version (of reality & God(s) etc) be true? Who has the capacity to ever know which one (?) it is? Where does heresy/blashphemy fit in? How can we be sure that God/the Gods is/are good? (and has/have our best interests in mind?) Can we truly ever really know?  Can there ever be a resemblance (in his/their image type thing) and "meeting of the minds" between beings of such obvious disparity in capabilites/motivations/world (reality) view - etc? etc etc I am a Daoist BTW. (we accept not knowing, basically...to [think you] know is not to know type of thing, as it cannot be known...etc) So there are questions - but no real (ultimate) answers. This being the case - how worked up should we really get? Peace. I think that is enough for now - my brain hurts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 1, 2002 Report Share Posted January 1, 2002 Thanks for the warm welcome  Just to add to something I said above, I don't think we as humans can ever trully know the universe (like we know a computer). I think Heisenberg was first to say it somewhere in the late 1920s in his "uncertainty principle" that we can know the exact position or the momentum of a particle but not both at the same time. So even if we knew all the rules governing the universe, we could never predict exactly what is going to happen next since we can't ever know the current state of things exactly. That would make the universe extermeley complex from the human perspective (unlike the computer). Most of THOT's questions above can be answered by "conjecture" but that is all it is going to be! As far as evolution/mutation, we have already seen it (mutation more so than evolution) so that explains a lot of things about how we got here. Although it may not explain everything. Hmmm... isn't it interesting where a question about the origin of bread can lead to in the "Theology" thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 1, 2002 Report Share Posted January 1, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Sip:Just to add to something I said above, I don't think we as humans can ever trully know the universe (like we know a computer). Most of THOT's questions above can be answered by "conjecture" but that is all it is going to be!Doesn't your first comment basically also imply that we cannot answer any of my proposed questions (with any certainty)?I'm surprised that my questions have not generated more comment...does that mean that everyone basically agrees we are all equally stumped? (LOL - I doubt that all will agree to this....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 26, 2002 Report Share Posted January 26, 2002 In the name of God the Most High, the Son and the Holy Spirit! Some people believe that GOD exists and some do not. Those who believe don't lose anything. More! Spritually they find more peace in their mind. They live and they die. The same happen with those who do not believe. But they might lose, if God really exists. And they will lose with some eternal punishment of eternal fire called hell. But that's from believers point of view. And not all believers go to heaven... So, the outcome... We will all find out wether God exists or not, as we will al die one day. But not all will discover the truth.  May God open your eyes as mine as i was a non-believer who did not believe in God at all. And i was trying to prove that God does not exists... untill one day ... single day...  Peace!Artur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 27, 2002 Report Share Posted January 27, 2002 And what if your god were in truth the devil - the great deciever...your sacrifice (?) for naught, your persecution of the heretic in vain, your deeds in support of the anti...etc...ever wonder why it was that the serpent told the truth and your god the lie? Are you familiar with the story of Prometheus? Do you know who Enki is? Have you ever studied the tales that your bible was based upon? Do you understand (anything of) the tale/fable(?) of Gilgamesh, the cycles of Osiris, the hero with the thousand faces...(etc)? Do you really believe that your ignorance could ever pass as wisdom? "To know is not to know" - Lao Tzu (?BC) "Ignorance is bliss": or is this your argument...? Either way your childish level explanations hold no true key, either way your presumption and arogance get you nothing in the end... Have you ever heard/read (the words of) Chief Joseph? Don't presume you know all/any answers... If I believe that if I brush my teeth 3 times daily I will go to heaven - who are you to prove me wrong? And I suspect you don't do so - should I mock you for your stupitidy? Should I hound you to do so...based on my (unable to be proven) belief? Considering the misdeeds of the (various) church(s) throughout history don't you think one has the better chance of being on the side of good (and all that this may entail) by opposing such? You seem to advocate adherence to archaic and inhuman practices based on presupisition of realities that can neither be witnessed or proven, and you suggest that it is in our interest to follow such suggestion for our own good. First - I question this (fear of punishment) as the basis for any religion (strictly unproven...and why worship our suposed punisher), and secondly I think our time might be better spent addressing the conditions that we can affect/witness. Is you/us being spiritual beings (under your definition) making us better people? If not, then who has it wrong? quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:In the name of God the Most High, the Son and the Holy Spirit! Some people believe that GOD exists and some do not. Those who believe don't lose anything. More! Spritually they find more peace in their mind. They live and they die. The same happen with those who do not believe. But they might lose, if God really exists. And they will lose with some eternal punishment of eternal fire called hell. But that's from believers point of view. And not all believers go to heaven... So, the outcome... We will all find out wether God exists or not, as we will al die one day. But not all will discover the truth.  May God open your eyes as mine as i was a non-believer who did not believe in God at all. And i was trying to prove that God does not exists... untill one day ... single day...  Peace!Artur [ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: THOTH ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 Thoth, one of you called me being agressive... now look at you... why are YOU so aggressive? What did i say? I said only IF God and IF not... no offence... Why do attack me with childish explanations, ignorance... ?? About the post... My God indeed is not devil. Why? Because my God is caring and loving and 1.5 million armenians did not die for the devil.  If you believe that to brash teeth you'll go to heaven. No PROBLEM ... believe in what you want : )) Man the more i read you posts, it seems that you have been affected with something and need some recovery. Did i say something offensive?  About fear of punishment. Indeed is one of the basis of my religion. And the thing is the same fear makes people to be cautious, to think about moves and what they do. But this basis come with if you don't do it you will recieve gardens of heaven. So be afraid of punishment and know that reward is kept in heaven, that makes people not to commit a sin. These two concepts are very important. And most of religions have these.  Regards,Artur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOTH Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:My God indeed is not devil. Why? Because my God is caring and loving and 1.5 million armenians did not die for the devil. Just why did they die Artur? What purpose did such death and suffering serve? How could He let such a thing happen to his devoted believers? I fail to understand at all...And Artur, I understand what you say about fear of punishment (potentially) being a motivatior for good behavior. Perhaps this is necessary when people are immature in their understanding of the consequences of their actions - much as we punish children (or threaten to or such)...however it is my belief that humans posses the capability to see these things (the value of good, etc) on their own. Sure - some will never be able to do so - and perhaps require some fear of the consequences of their behaviors. But by your logic I think that this idea of Hell is only a tool - not a real place...and perhaps it (and much of the religion) has outlived its usefulness. This is just my feeling - perhaps I am wrong. I think that very much of Judeo-Christianity is a good thing - as I beleive that Buddism, Hinduism, Daoism and other religions are good things. I think we must take the good and shed the bad - and I think that those which are exclusivistic have harmful elements - and they can't all be right can they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturian Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 Sip you are right, but i am not religious fanatic as you say and i don't judge people. It is somewhat different from muslims who judge who is right and who is wrong. If you don't believe then it is your choice. God judges, and i am his slave and nothing more. About punishment, i believe people will need it through their years. Also did you realise that when people become elder they start praying more because their time comes and fear makes them do that, so the fear of punishment is not just for immature people. Also, there might be good, bad right or wrong sides in religions, but i am nobody to judge, and surely i won't judge and disagree what is said in Bible as it is a sin. Some things have explanations some things don't, and i am nobody to judge GOD and his actions.   Regards,Artur [ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: ARTURian ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 quote:Originally posted by ARTURian:...May God open your eyes as mine as i was a non-believer who did not believe in God at all. And i was trying to prove that God does not exists...I think this is where the problem comes in. What you (and all closed minded religious fanatics) are saying is that if someone does not believe in YOUR God, that person will end up in YOUR hell, doesn't matter if he is a good person or a bad person. That just doesn't make sense! You are assuming that if someone does not believe in a god, that person is a bad person. That assumption is totally wrong in my opinion. THOTH, very nice post by the way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fadi Posted March 12, 2002 Report Share Posted March 12, 2002 Artur, when someone get old he/she pray more, but this has nothing to do because they fear punishment, but rather they fear death... human always feared death for milleniums, before Christianity it was praying to fire, sky etc... because they needed some kind of surnatural links because of their fear of death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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