Turkish friend

[Boghos]

If I need to say it, my problem is with the Turkish state, for its aggressive and unfair treatment of Armenians wherever they may be. It would follow that if the state represents the interests of a people, collectively, that Turks as a nation are also a problematic bunch when it comes to Armenians. That may be so.

 

But the issue is friends, in other words, a very small sample of people. In that case I don´t see how being a Turk or an Icelandic makes any difference. I actually have found Turks much more suspicious of Armenians than vice-versa. Also in my visits to Turkey I have noticed a feeling of superiority from some Turks. Turks seem to feel that Armenians are out there to give their country a bad name.

 

I think Mustafa Kemal was a great leader, I really do in spite of his instance towards Armenians. But while Turks are still caught up in this nationalistic sense of unity, whereas they are really a mosaic of people, it will be very hard to relate to them collectively.

[Des]

Steve,

Since this is a forum about Armenian issues, I shall make this note short. Here I have 2 points to make:

1) Are you Indian or African? If not, then you have NO right to say what good the British empire did for them. The Turks also claim that they did a lot FOR Armenains and Greeks.

2) Please do not compare China to Turkey unless you have studied the history of both these 2 countries in detail.

[Pilafhead]

I think I'm pretty much with you here, Azat.

Although I guess in reality, if I actually came across someone in the US of turkish descent, it would depend upon the person (along the lines of what Martin was saying). If they were truly oblivious to whole issue, then how could you hold anything against them? I doubt though I'd be hanging out with them at family functions though.

As for a turkish girlfriend, never(besides the fact that I'm married ). Just the remote possibility that her ancestors have Armenian blood on their hands would keep me away.

[Azat]

Your wife may get upset even if she(the girlfriend) was not Turkish.

I understand what you are saying. I am very open minded and if I had a coworker or neighbor I would do everything I do today with my coworkers including having them over at parties and stuff like that. But a friend in a true sense of the word will be hard.

[ April 19, 2001: Message edited by: Azat ]

[levonyeshilian]

There are two kinds of people in any nation over the world...Speaking about the Turks one is stupid as stone believing what they learned at school and those so called politicians and following them blindly.And the other part questioning their past,feeling guilty for their ancestors,but can't change the beliefs of the many.....

It's too sad many of the Turks believe what they were told in school.As you read the discussions with them they only say Armenians killed Turks too but they can't even say a single book name prooving this.These are the Turks i don't even say a single 'Good Morning'.

But there are perfect Turks I love them as brothers.Please don't hate a single word 'the Turk'.But those denying us just for political reasons.All of us are human,if we do feel hatred for any,what would make us different from a brainwashed man?

[bellthecat]

I have the right to speak on any subject I know about (and when that concerns Turkey, the British empire, Africa, India, and (it seems) China, my knowledge appears to exceed yours).

In the last 100 years Turkey may have killed its millions, China its hundreds of millions by genocide - but nobody is seriously going to say that Turkey is posing a threat to world security. China has that dubious honour.

I feel that the Turkish and the Chinese sense of themselves does seems to be very similar - both walk around with a huge chip on their shoulders; have a massive ego that seems to mask a severe inferiority complex; have a belief that everyone (especially their neighbours) is always out to get them; take refuge in "tradition" when confronted with social problems; have a distrust of foreigners; a belief that all problems are as a result of outside elements; a severe cultural and ethnic insularity; and a contempt of any culture that is not their own (while destroying, diluting or popularising their own culture to the extent that it devoid of any real value).

Steve

[oz]

Dear Steve;

 

If you want to accuse Turkey and China about their crimes against humanity, its OK, but:

 

1-Read the topic first, is it relevant? Why don't you start an other group if you really want to express your feelings?

 

2-Don't even mention about Britain while you are accusing other countries about crimes against humanity and nationalism.

[gamavor]

Welcome on board Oz,

I would like to make some corrections to your previous statement, although I m fully aware that this thread is about friendship.
The number of Armenians cited by you is actually, what has left since you invaded our country six centuries ago.
Thank you very much that you allow us to have a Patriarchate and 55 churches and schools. I really appreciate that. After occupying our lands and culture, and destroying our nation, we really must be very thankful to the modern turks for what they have done to us. Thanks again.
Armenians in Turkey are “obliged” to have the same rights as you have, well not exactly. If you are Armenian in Turkey hardly would be allowed to held a public office, or if you do than in would be clearly a political tric. There are certain restrictions concerning donations and inheritance rights that seriously affect the maintenance of the Armenian cultural institutions and churches.

[Des]

Dear Steve,

I shall not argue with you, as this is not the relevant board, and I never waste my time on people with a hate problem.

[oz]

Gamavor;

 

Anna accused Turkey for destroying your churches and I respond inspite of her pride that never lets her to even talk to a Turk.

 

I did it because I think you have right to know what's really going on in Turkey.

 

On the other hand, are there any Turkish people or mosque left in Armenia?

 

And I don't understand what are you accusing us for.

 

----------

You know, there is no border for love; I know some Turkish-Armenian couples.

 

Do you have any idea why they are living in Turkey?

 

Because they are afraiding for being murdered by ultra-nationalist Armenians in Armenia.

----------

[Boghos]

Oz,

 

There is a very well preserved mosque in downtown Yerevan. I am sure you are well aware of what happened to the churches in Baku for example. Or in many cities throughout Anatolia. Or go to the Ethnographic Museum in Ankara: there is no mention of the Armenians.

 

An Armenian-Turkish couple afraid of ultranatioanlists in Armenia ? You must be joking. Most Armenians have no ill feelings toward Turks. Whereas the contrary is quite true. I have been to Turkey several times, and so have some of my relatives. There is animosity towards even the most polite, educated Armenians.

 

The matter of fact is that Armenians, together with Greeks and Jews, made a disproportionately large contribution to the Ottoman Emoire, and that caused enormous jealousy. Armenians were the scapegoat of a crumbling OE. Kurds have replaced Armenians in recent period.

 

I welcome your presence in this forum. But try to keep your Bozkurt ideas to yourself. Or else try to make them sound somewhat likely to be meaningful and true.

 

[ April 21, 2001: Message edited by: Boghos ]

[gamavor]

Dear Oz,

 

There are some simple things to understand. You refuse to understand that turks destroyed our Civilization and after few centuries you want to join our Civilization. There can not be friendship between Armenians and Turks as nations as long as turks (or rather their leadership) continues to behave as animals. Accusations of terrorism and ultra-nationalism on the part of the Armenians are completely out of the topic here.(Kennedy was assassinated in the best democracy in the world for instance). It is not Armenians that want to join the World but the Turks. And with the current state of affairs in your country concerning human rights, this is impossible. You want to be part of Europe but to do that you need to learn and accept our values. That means dissolution of the so-called “Republic of Turkey”, because I don’t believe in modernization of your country.

[oz]

How can you accuse me for being a Bozkurt*? What makes you think like that?

 

You claim that most Armenians don't have ill feelings agains Turks; why don't you read the postings?

 

I responded my post under this topic:

 

 

and I found nothing but hatred.

 

Why should I belive that Turks are safe in Armenia? Ulta-nationalist Armenians didn't hesitate to murder Turks even in other countries. What could stop them in Armenia?

 

Also, didn't they murdered your own Prime Minister in the Parliament? I think it proves how powerful they are.

 

I don't say we don't have same kind of psychopats in Turkey, we have a lot of them. There is no doubt that there could be an animosity towards to your relevants from these idiots, but they can't threat them in a physical manner. However, I'm sure your relatives must have more friends than enemies, right?

 

On the other hand, some acts of Armenians, who illegally entered Turkey for working, really harm your reputation and make life harder for other Armenians citizens.

 

I'm trying to evaluate these people as uneducated and unemployed poor people who don't have anything to lose; not as an Armenian.

 

Also, I'm trying to do my best to correct the misunderstandings about Armenian people in my country, but you are not helping.

 

I don't see any future between our countries if we continue to cultivate hatred in our people's mind.

 

* For others who don't know: Bozkurt is a nickname for ulta-nationalist Turks

 

[ April 21, 2001: Message edited by: oz ]

[raja]

Ok,here it goes.

This is my first post.Since I was born and raised in Istanbul I am inclined to make a few comments on this subject.In the course of my 35 years in Turkey I had a number of friends and the majority of them were naturally Turkish.Along with that I had quite a few Turkish girlfriends too.With some of them I had a serious relationship,but parted not because of racial issues but rather the usual reasons why relationships end.I never encountered any hostility due to my race from the people I met in the couse of my lifetime,but rather I was welcome especially to prove that race would never be an issue of hostility.And many times it was even stated that way.

I don't have any hard feelings against today's Turks.I still communicate with my friends over there and in spite of the distance we try to keep in touch.

[oz]

Thanks Raffi...

 

[ April 22, 2001: Message edited by: oz ]

[oz]

Gamavor;

 

You refer yourself as a civilized person, so why don't you try to behave like on of them?

 

I'm wide open to any argument as long as we keep our emotions to ourselves and be polite to each other.

 

And, If you don't mind, I don't want to argue with you under this topic.

[alpha]

I don't understand what does one's ethnicity have to do with dating or being friends. Do you guys ask about person's political believes when you go out? Is it that important to you? Relationships and friendships are based on personal level, and I think people should leave political believes or ethnicity out of it. I personally don't care what are my friends' political believes, be it an Armenian genocide, or anything else. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally wouldn't mind dating a Turkish girl. In fact back in my college years I used to go out with one (blond, blue eyed Turk from Istambul).

[oz]

Nice for you Alpha!

[Boghos]

Raffi,

 

I don´t doubt your testimony. But if you are trying to imply that Armenians live in Istanbul side by side with Turks as brothers and sisters, I think you are mistaken. I can list a number of incidents related to me by Armenians and Turkish friends where it is clear that animosity persists.

 

Moreover one needs only to open the pages of such dailies as Radikal or any other large circulation paper with the exception of Cumhuriyet, to see article after article denigrating Armenians. Remember they even said that Apo was Armenian, was hiding in Armenia, etc. Same thing applies to Turkish Daily News.

 

I know how it feels to be away from your city and even your country, after all Turkey is your country, and there is nothing wrong about it. But I think we should be objective. One can have an upper middle class life in Istanbul, surrounded by likely minded liberal, Europeanized friends, have a house in Kínalí, etc. But that is by no means representative of the relationship between peoples.

 

I personally find such a pity that Armenians can´t live alongside Turks in peace. I really do.

[raja]

Dear Boghos

The upper middle class life you refer to happens to be the life of the majority of the Armenians living in Istanbul.And these Armenians don't encounter animosity in their everyday life.But if you go up one level to politics,press,media etc. that doesn't happen to be the case.But even then the hostility at that level is not targeted to the Armenians living in Turkey.Of course there may be incidents of the opposite,but generally speaking the Armenians living in Turkey right now are in peace.

[armeniangirl83]

Boghos, i think that the Turks live in peace with you because you're good for them. But when Turks when the turks not need you, then they shall not look to your face.

[TurkeyGuilty]

As my username clearly reads "TurkeyGuilty," one can see what my beliefs are about their government. GOVERNMENT, not their people.

 

I lived in Turkey for almost a month, with a Turkish family, who apologized to me for what their country did in 1915 and still continues to do until today.

 

I am often taken aback by the hatred that some Armenians disseminate about modern-day Turks. For example, after the earthquake in Istanbul, I heard many of my peers saying "Okh yeghav, they deserve it, I hope all the Turks die," etc. I, on the other hand, thought of my friends who could have died in that earthquake and was overwhelmingly sad.

 

The Turks have a culture--music, food, religion--just as all people of this world. It is unfair to dismiss them or hate them as a people because of their government (one which imprisons journalists and activists, whose constituents by virtue of their citizenship are the prisoners of).

[ThornyRose]

Good for you. That's interesting. You know, when you first signed up and I saw your user name, I was like, oh no...
Why did you spend a month in Turkey? Would you like to tell us?

[ThornyRose]

Kazza, sweetie, I agree with your post about people who love each other being able to go through everything.

 

Anna:

 

 

First off, how old are you?

Secondly, do you believe in individuality? Apparently not.

Thirdly, if you ever get to read and respond to this, what does it make you feel like to talk to someone whose family could have been targeted by the ASALA?

Oh wait - your noble Armenian pride wouldn't allow you to talk with Turks. So I better forget about it.

[TurkeyGuilty]

Hi Thorny Rose,

 

I have another nickname that I am "infamous" for, that being Sadanna. It's my email address and the name that I use on the other bulletin board I subscribe to. I figured, "new board so why not new name?"

 

I was in Turkey as part of a long summer vacation during high school. I went to Jordan to visit family for a few weeks, then I spent a month in Venice for "Hayakeedagan," after which I spent time in Turkey.

 

My father is one of the handful of Armenians still involved in the oriental rug and antique trade, and he does business in Turkey and the old Armenian villages (among others). I was staying with his business associates.

 

It was a very interesting trip, and each place that I visited was a different culture shock. I am a very Hayaser person, I am "Hye" in all senses of the word, right down to the accent I manufactured for when I speak English

 

My classmates in high school once drew a caricature of me as "Rambo" complete with a mooshtag over my shoulders and an Armenian flag behind me. This same person was immersed in the Turkish culture, and I appreciated it as such.

 

I've seen other posts on this subject about dating or marrying a Turk. For me, dating or marrying anybody other than an Armenian is out of the question. But, the choice between befriending or antagonizing someone based on their ethnicity...I'm not going to hate someone because they're a Turk.