Em Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 That maybe one way to look at it but my view is that sometimes it just takes a lot of repetition (in different forms) to clarify a point. If you have ever tried being a teacher, I think you might agree with me. Sip jan, I know. But my nine year old group of 20 (third graders) usually got it far sooner. Lol. J/k. I just wish we coudld respect each other's right to believe or not believe as we see fit. I think that is the point behind living in this "free country". To each, his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 Ashot, if with my computer I simulate a universe which contain entities which are self aware..., am I a God? I know with computers we can already do that ... but it seems to be with our growing understanding of DNA, one day we will be able to make our own new species (not just dna manipulation but actually dna creation). It is still many many many years into the future but I don't see why we shouldn't be able to eventually do this. The question is, then what?! Are we Gods then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 No we are not, because we are merely cloning ourselves, we get a life out of life, we get something from us, did we create it from scratch no... are you creating something that will not know where they came from? nope, you are creating something that will know where they originated, who created them, and why!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zara Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 (edited) Sip, I know I don't have much of an opinion on this subject but I have to agree with Ash on this one. You're just putting something together. Fitting one piece onto another and manipulating other pieces. You didn't create it from apparent nothingness. It was already there for you. Edited April 12, 2008 by Zara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 Sip, I know I don't have much of an opinion on this subject but I have to agree with Ash on this one. You're just putting something together. Fitting one piece onto another and manipulating other pieces. You didn't create it from apparent nothingness. It was already there for you. To us of course it would seem that way. But do you think the virus or the ameba we create from other things that exist to us (but not to them yet) will have the ability to understand what they are made of? By the way, for the record, I have not said we create something out of nothing ... that was a philosophical thing Domino has brought up. I am also not sure if the Universe was really created of "nothing" ... that is undoubtedly going to be one of those purely philosophical things. The scenario I was putting forth is that even supposing humans were explicitly "created", couldn't we humans have been created by some other thing or MUST it be the case that whatever force created the universe must also have created humans. Essentially my main problem with the mono-theistic views are that they inevitably end up attributing EVERYTHING to a single God where it is entirely possible that some force put the universe in motion and some other force created physical life as we know it much like we ourselves can manipulate the physical universe around us. By the way, of course I do NOT "believe" in anything but the physical life i.e. I don't believe in spirits, ghosts, and reincarnation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sip Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 http://www.lolhome.com/img_big/funny-picture-1183610630.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 Sip jan, place the first picture under the second one and replace end with science!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 Sip jan, I know. But my nine year old group of 20 (third graders) usually got it far sooner. Lol. J/k. I just wish we coudld respect each other's right to believe or not believe as we see fit. I think that is the point behind living in this "free country". To each, his own. to quote myself... "well... isn't that what true faith all about? if you are anything less than that then you don't have faith... you doubt your god... when you accept christ, for example, as the son of god, thus the only savior, the only path to god and heaven, the almighty, the omnipotent, the one and only one, whose word is the absolute truth and nothing but truth, how can you allow yourself to sit down and listen what the other person has to say? that would mean that your faith in your god is not perfect... you have doubts in your mind about your god... furthermore, when you accept christ, for example, as the son of god, thus the only savior, the only path to god and heaven, the almighty, the omnipotent, the one and only one, whose word is the absolute truth and nothing but truth, when you know you have found the path and the only path, how can you sit aside and watch your fellow friend, compatriot, or any other person for that matter live in darkness, without god, walking a wrong path... wouldn't that be selfish act to not tell him/her about the truth, about the god, about the path, illuminate him/her? wouldn't it be the most unchristian thing to do, to not share the goodness with your neighbor? either you accept christ, for example, as the god, the perfect being, or you don't... there is no between, there are no buts or ifs... there is no half christian... anything less than perfect devotion and absolute doubtlessness makes you no christian..." http://hyeforum.com/index.php?s=&showt...st&p=163635 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 and here comes almighty Harut! Har jan barov tesanq!!! Vontses korats yexpayr, es ures chkas qani ora... Har jan, I would have to disagree with you, I can't and won't be able to make you believe what I believe, it is something inside of me, and certainly I am not going to preach you about it, there is/are enough people for that in this world. Our argument is why must you always come and try to make us stop our belifs, and especially critisize them. Just let it be, the question is you believe or not, believers should be on one corner believing what we want to believe, none-believers should go to the other corner and start doing calculations as to how many people are on the other side of the room and what are the possobilities of blowing them off with nuclear weapons. math+science+physics!!! What is your poing of critisizing us? Is it something that makes you happy? If I know that you guys are going to be happy by critisizing us, I'll play along and make you guys happy, but I don't see any reasons to your critisizm and endless arguments as what should we believe or not to believe!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 http://www.lolhome.com/img_big/funny-picture-1183610630.jpg There is a missing part here, after ''The Theory created'' the theory must make predictions and bring something new to improve our understanding. The first point particularly is important, as it makes of a theory a scientific theory (the principle of falisifiability). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 (edited) for them you will be a god!!! Creator of their universe and all!!! OK now there is three possibilities... -Either the computer which has some intelligences create life and the universe it simulate, in which case the universe is a part of itself. In this case the computer is god, but this god has a creator, the person who build it and programmed it. -Either someone programmed that universe in a computer, which mean that someone is god, but is outside of the system, outside the laws of that universe. As he can put any rules he wants. -Either a computer randomnly choose laws of universes by creating countless numbers of universes and end up creating life by having a couples which have all the conditions necessary for the apparition of life. Will the computer be a god, as the creation of life is not necessarly in this case what was expected. The third case scenario is interesting, as life created by ''accident'' could in its turn creat life by simulating a universe in a computer by choice (randomnity creating god). And specifically choose to place rules which will creat life and become a god. ------------ You see when I say that reality is more complex than dumb ''yes there is a god'' ''no there is no god''... we will one day become gods, the same way that the person which appeared from an emulation has created a computer and created life. It is a matter of time. Physicists are already simulating universes. Edited April 12, 2008 by DominO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 No we are not, because we are merely cloning ourselves, we get a life out of life, The possible creator of our universe could have done just that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harut Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 and here comes almighty Harut! Har jan barov tesanq!!! Vontses korats yexpayr, es ures chkas qani ora... barev ash... lav em... du vonts es... bobik votqov qnatsel ei yerusaghem, meghqers qavelu... Har jan, I would have to disagree with you, I can't and won't be able to make you believe what I believe, it is something inside of me, and certainly I am not going to preach you about it, there is/are enough people for that in this world. Our argument is why must you always come and try to make us stop our belifs, and especially critisize them. Just let it be, the question is you believe or not, believers should be on one corner believing what we want to believe, none-believers should go to the other corner and start doing calculations as to how many people are on the other side of the room and what are the possobilities of blowing them off with nuclear weapons. math+science+physics!!! What is your poing of critisizing us? Is it something that makes you happy? If I know that you guys are going to be happy by critisizing us, I'll play along and make you guys happy, but I don't see any reasons to your critisizm and endless arguments as what should we believe or not to believe!!! ash, you're right, i don't know what you believe in and cannot pass a judgement (or comment) onto you... unless, you decise to tell me and we go from there... however, from my understanding of current major religions (especially christianity), i have to disagree with your disagreement and refer you back to my bolded paragraph above... i still stress that if a true christian does not reach out to others and show them the road to salvation (read preach) than he is a major selfish a-hole... and since being a major selfish a-hole goes against the teaching of christian faith than his is not christian... period... if you have found the right and only path to salvation, to god, and to heaven, don't you want to share it with me, your fellow man, and save me from my mysery of burinig in hell forever? but, this is besides the point of the topic here as it was just a comment on em's comment... as far as critisizing, i'm not doing any of that... however, i do feel the urge to comment on postings that don't make sense or are untrue (to the best of my knowledge)... afterall, isn't that what a true christian worrier is supposed to do, to counter the preachings of the heretics and put his fellow men back on the right path to god and to heaven... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 Ashot, my question to Roger is not about why he believes in God, but about his reason for believing in God. He says that he believes in God because the Bible states that God exists. With all due respect to Ashdot, I would like to respond myself to your question. To simply answer what I said, "I believe that God exists because the Bible states that God exists." Psalm 19:1-6 states, "The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words; Their voice is not heard. Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their utterances to the end of the world. In them He has placed a tent for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; It rejoices as a strong man to run his course. Its rising is from one end of the heavens, And its circuit to the other end of them; And there is nothing hidden from its heat." Practically speaking these verses say that each day when the sun rises from the East and sets in the West, and than you look into the sky and see the stars, this declares that God exists. The Bible also states in Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." This verse teaches us that God has clearly revealed himself to all men and women through His creation. God has not only revealed himself in creation, but through His one and only son Jesus Christ. "For in Him, all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9). So my answer remains that I believe God exists because the Bible states that God exists and I believe the Bible to be the true Words of God revealed to man. I hope I answered your question. Do you believe in God? If not, may why not? Grace and Peace, Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 (edited) Ok Well, who wrote the Bible? The author of the Bible is God but was written using man as the instrument. The following is what the Bible states about who wrote the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16, "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." 2 Peter 2:20-21 "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy of was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." First of all, 2 Tim 3:16 says that the Bible was inspired by God. Literally "inspired" means God-breathed. The words in the Bible come from God. Yes, men wrote it with their hands but as 2 Peter 2:20-21 states, it was not based on their words, but based on the Holy Spirit moving them to write the words of Scripture down on paper. Grace and Peace, Roger Edited April 12, 2008 by Rog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 Roger do I know you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins would enlighten many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 Har jan, qo tesaket@ livoin haskanalia, sakayn yes etqanel lav preach anogh chem, hajort anqam gas Los dzen tur ampayman k@tanem ter Shnori mot, inq@ indznits lav k@batsatri, che axper chem toghni gnas dzhoxqum varvelu, xosqem talis!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins would enlighten many. That book will only alienate many not the contrary. Dawkins is an exceptional biologist but a very bad philosopher who has no clue and has shown to be inept to understand humanity beyond it's biological componment. Others make stronger cases such as Carl Sagan or Martin Rees who himself criticised Dawkins extremism. You don't enlighten someone by hitting on his belief this way, you rather provide and give that person the tools to enlighten himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominO123 Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 Here is how you enlighten someone, you show him that the universe (multiverse) is already so misterious, so magical by itself. http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/rees03/rees_print.html (the clip does not work, but you can read the text of the clip on the link) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aratta-Kingdom Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 es teman der sharunakvum a? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Em Posted April 12, 2008 Report Share Posted April 12, 2008 to quote myself... "well... isn't that what true faith all about? if you are anything less than that then you don't have faith... you doubt your god... when you accept christ, for example, as the son of god, thus the only savior, the only path to god and heaven, the almighty, the omnipotent, the one and only one, whose word is the absolute truth and nothing but truth, how can you allow yourself to sit down and listen what the other person has to say? that would mean that your faith in your god is not perfect... you have doubts in your mind about your god... furthermore, when you accept christ, for example, as the son of god, thus the only savior, the only path to god and heaven, the almighty, the omnipotent, the one and only one, whose word is the absolute truth and nothing but truth, when you know you have found the path and the only path, how can you sit aside and watch your fellow friend, compatriot, or any other person for that matter live in darkness, without god, walking a wrong path... wouldn't that be selfish act to not tell him/her about the truth, about the god, about the path, illuminate him/her? wouldn't it be the most unchristian thing to do, to not share the goodness with your neighbor? either you accept christ, for example, as the god, the perfect being, or you don't... there is no between, there are no buts or ifs... there is no half christian... anything less than perfect devotion and absolute doubtlessness makes you no christian..." http://hyeforum.com/index.php?s=&showt...st&p=163635 Now I understand why you cannot possibly believe. The major part of the puzzle fell into place. How about if I disagree with you and add that I am not an absolute Armenian, or an absolute Christian, nor an absolute mother, an absolute daughter.... i am partial, dilluted and at times so off that I don't even know how or where I fit in. I am NOT religious, I am spiritual and have faith in a type of belief that very closely mirrors the overall message and story behind Chrisitianity. I don't read the bible, just like I don't read "how to manuals", I only go to church when it is empty, and I have no interest in listening to sermons, attending services, ... But I Christened my daughter as a symbolic gesture.. it was the only "ritualistic" Christian thing I have done since my own Christening. In essence, I believe in somehting greater than myself. I don't judge those who do not believe (though I worry about them ), and I do not like to be judged in return. And I believe there is one truth, but either we see it and realize it, or for whatever reason we have chosen to close our eyes to it. I am sure even as I type this that you feel the same way but for the exact opposite - lack of God. I accept that. No skin off my nose. I don't live my life in either extreme. No black or white. It is all grey to me. If Christianity cannot be grey, then I kow I am not a true Chrisitan.. I am just a true believer in something close... To sum all that ^^ up, I'm good with God! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 That book will only alienate many not the contrary. Dawkins is an exceptional biologist but a very bad philosopher who has no clue and has shown to be inept to understand humanity beyond it's biological componment. Others make stronger cases such as Carl Sagan or Martin Rees who himself criticised Dawkins extremism. You don't enlighten someone by hitting on his belief this way, you rather provide and give that person the tools to enlighten himself. You obviously do not get Dawkins and how he writes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins would enlighten many. Only those capable of understanding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvestaked Posted April 13, 2008 Report Share Posted April 13, 2008 so you did run out of arguments, right? I haven't run out of anything. You're not even asking for arguments; you're stalling by asking for definitions hoping that I would fail to articulate something so you can continue worshiping gaps. As a matter of fact you're asking for definitions of things mentioned in a tangential conversation that has nothing to do with my argument with you. You thing you are being clever and philosophical but real it is just pathetic and lazy. And annoying for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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